992 réponses à ce sujet

[The-Sapient]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Your question has no answer.  Things that don't exist can't axhibit characteristics.

Are you going to continue to defend dometic abuse while refusing to answer questions about it?  Is there a relationship between your pro-abuse position and your dislike of voice acting?  Do you think your inexperience with RPGs is the reason your arguments are so flimsy? 

Do you like how your silly claim that questions can not make assertions has made things difficult for you? 

[The Gentle Ben]

At the risk of bringing this stimulating discourse on the falsies of misleading inquiries back on track. I would say that while I am not overly hostile in theory to the paraphrase system, I like tmp7704 had no problems with the Witcher's full-text implementation. I realize that's not useful beyond anecdote, but since the paraphrase and full-text are already linked by dint of the wonders of subtitling, the decision not to include a full-text option/toggle (good-bye kitten) appears to be largely a design decision as opposed to a resource one, and I merely wonder (in all honesty and without hostility) why that decision was ultimately made.

Also, at least I wasn't the only one who misinterpreted the "He won't be alone" quote. Even in "error", company is comforting.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 25 février 2011 - 11:22 .

[tmp7704]

Pauravi wrote...

The Bioware guys explained before that they've actually done playtesting with the voice actors repeating the lines, and found that many people just ended up skipping the VO because they were just repeating something that they had already read.  The thing is, Bioware WANTS you to hear the VO.  They feel that it adds dramatic value and a more involving, cinematic quality to the game, and I agree with them.

Doesn't it make you then wonder why there's actual option to skip the spoken dialogue at all?

[AtreiyaN7]

tmp7704 wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

The Bioware guys explained before that they've actually done playtesting with the voice actors repeating the lines, and found that many people just ended up skipping the VO because they were just repeating something that they had already read.  The thing is, Bioware WANTS you to hear the VO.  They feel that it adds dramatic value and a more involving, cinematic quality to the game, and I agree with them.

Doesn't it make you then wonder why there's actual option to skip the spoken dialogue at all?

They probably do want the gamer to listen to the VO and get the full experience, but that being said, they certainly aren't going to force people into listening to it if they don't want to. I'll skip dialogue if I've done multiple playthroughs and am in a hurry. The first time I play the game though, I always listen to all the VO for the full dramatic effect.

[AkiKishi]

tmp7704 wrote...

Doesn't it make you then wonder why there's actual option to skip the spoken dialogue at all?

Because people who have played the game nth number of times don't want to listen to it ? I think it should be mandatory on the first game though

[Sylvius the Mad]

The-Sapient wrote...

Are you going to continue to defend dometic abuse while refusing to answer questions about it?  Is there a relationship between your pro-abuse position and your dislike of voice acting?  Do you think your inexperience with RPGs is the reason your arguments are so flimsy? 

Do you like how your silly claim that questions can not make assertions has made things difficult for you?

My supposedly silly claim has caused you to make a fool of yourself, thus discrediting your position.

I win again.

[TEWR]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Seriously people....

In Origins you could be a douche to people, or sympathetic, or even sarcastic. Example: Oghren asks to tag along.  your options:

1)Cross me and you're dead.
2) What makes you think you can trust me?
3) Don't I have enough armed lunatics following me around?

Honestly, this is all the same as what Origins did, just a lot easier to understand. I don't know why people are saying "Hawke's not saying anything I wanted him to say. I've been misled!!"

no you haven't. When your siblings are playing the blame game, and you say "speaking of running...." what comes out of Hawke's mouth is a definite sarcastic joking response, as is the angry fed up response.

What Hawke says when you choose "speaking of running" is a reference to some darkspawn that we don't even know are there when we make the choice.   We can't possibly have intended that.

Hawke consoles his mother on sibling's death:

you pick "He won't be alone". Hawke says, "At least Father will have company now." which is entirely accurate on what the wheel presented considering Hawke's father died (yes DIED as in DEAD, meaning he and your sibling are no longer among the living), three years prior to the game's start.

Except, again, the game hasn't mentioned yet that Hawke's father is dead, so the player doesn't necessarily know
that.  Also, when I chose that option, I meant it to mean that I was going to kill a bunch of other people out of
vengeance, and they would keep him company.  But that's nothing at all like what Hawke said.
.

the game has mentioned Hawke's father as being dead. Read the codex on Hawke. Or do you just not read them? And how is vengeance supposed to be charming? You picked the charming response, trying to comfort your grieving mother, and to you that equates itself to being vengeful? How does that work?

[Sylvius the Mad]

BobSmith101 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Doesn't it make you then wonder why there's actual option to skip the spoken dialogue at all?

Because people who have played the game nth number of times don't want to listen to it ? I think it should be mandatory on the first game though

No problem.  I'll just mute the dialogue and disable the subtitles.

[FieryDove]

BobSmith101 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Doesn't it make you then wonder why there's actual option to skip the spoken dialogue at all?

Because people who have played the game nth number of times don't want to listen to it ? I think it should be mandatory on the first game though

Oh no. The forums would explode. Too many "Too much talking, I just want to shoot/kill things" were brought up in the ME and DAO forums.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I win again.

You always do. Are you cheating?

Modifié par FieryDove, 25 février 2011 - 11:49 .

[TEWR]

Also, how are you not supposed to think that "Speaking of running..." means run from darkspawn? You're fleeing from the goddamn blight, for the love of Holy Maker! The darkspawn are everywhere! It only makes sense that when you're fleeing from something that will KILL you without mercy, the option of running, means running from said threat.

EDIT: seriously Sylvius, what was that supposed to mean to you? Should Hawke have said "Let's run and go get a cheeseburger!"?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 février 2011 - 11:56 .

[tmp7704]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

They probably do want the gamer to listen to the VO and get the full experience, but that being said, they certainly aren't going to force people into listening to it if they don't want to.

Sure, it's just the result is oddly bipolar -- they aren't going to force me to sit through the line if i don't want to listen to it, yet at the same time they do decide i'm not allowed to have a switch which may or may not lead me to skipping VO more. Because then i could, maker forbid, actually skip it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EDIT: seriously Sylvius, what was that supposed to mean to you? Should Hawke have said "Let's run and go get a cheeseburger!"?

That was one case where I simply wasn't able to draw a conclusion.  I had no idea what would result from that selection.

[AtreiyaN7]

tmp7704 wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

They probably do want the gamer to listen to the VO and get the full experience, but that being said, they certainly aren't going to force people into listening to it if they don't want to.

Sure, it's just the result is oddly bipolar -- they aren't going to force me to sit through the line if i don't want to listen to it, yet at the same time they do decide i'm not allowed to have a switch which may or may not lead me to skipping VO more. Because then i could, maker forbid, actually skip it.

The paraphrase system doesn't force you to listen to anything. You make a choice, read the dialogue if you have your subtitles on, and then you hit ESC just like you always do when you want to skip listening to the VO if that's your inclination. How does that not allow you to skip things? You aren't forced to sit around listening to any VO as far as I know.

[TEWR]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EDIT: seriously Sylvius, what was that supposed to mean to you? Should Hawke have said "Let's run and go get a cheeseburger!"?

That was one case where I simply wasn't able to draw a conclusion.  I had no idea what would result from that selection.

ok. still, it is something to be expected given that they are running as refugees from Darkspawn. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh, but I just think that people don't want to think anymore, especially when playing games. i may have gone a tad overboard in my response. stupidity is something that really gets on my nerves y'know?

[mesmerizedish]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EDIT: seriously Sylvius, what was that supposed to mean to you? Should Hawke have said "Let's run and go get a cheeseburger!"?

That was one case where I simply wasn't able to draw a conclusion.  I had no idea what would result from that selection.

ok. still, it is something to be expected given that they are running as refugees from Darkspawn. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh, but I just think that people don't want to think anymore, especially when playing games. i may have gone a tad overboard in my response. stupidity is something that really gets on my nerves y'know?

I don't think anything Sylvius says stems from stupidity.

In this particular example, though, I have to wonder if you're deliberately refusing to making even the most reasonable of assumptions. It's one thing to say "I thought she mean run from the darkspawn, but I couldn't be sure." But "I had no idea..." makes me think that you're keeping an intentionally closed mind.

[TEWR]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EDIT: seriously Sylvius, what was that supposed to mean to you? Should Hawke have said "Let's run and go get a cheeseburger!"?

That was one case where I simply wasn't able to draw a conclusion.  I had no idea what would result from that selection.

ok. still, it is something to be expected given that they are running as refugees from Darkspawn. Sorry if I came off a bit harsh, but I just think that people don't want to think anymore, especially when playing games. i may have gone a tad overboard in my response. stupidity is something that really gets on my nerves y'know?

I don't think anything Sylvius says stems from stupidity.

In this particular example, though, I have to wonder if you're deliberately refusing to making even the most reasonable of assumptions. It's one thing to say "I thought she mean run from the darkspawn, but I couldn't be sure." But "I had no idea..." makes me think that you're keeping an intentionally closed mind.

I'm not saying he or she is stupid. I just see stupid people so much Ishmael, and the forums add to that as we all know, that I may tend to overreact to someone who isn't stupid but may have posted something to seem deliberately obtuse or stupid or what have you, because I can't really control myself. I just wasn't sure how to phrase that last sentence up there, so I don't want it misconstrued as me calling him/her stupid.

Like i said, I'm not calling Sylvius stupid.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 février 2011 - 12:58 .

[Littlemad]

I loved the monkey island option of selecting an answer, you didn't really need to chose one, because where leading more or less on the same thing but just reading them all was a lot of fun.

with the wheel I feel that I lose a bit the fun way of an answering possibility because I do not hear the full speech.
I really would like sometimes answer briefly or do a full monologue just to make a point in the game.

Modifié par Littlemad, 26 février 2011 - 01:06 .

[Sinferno]

wowpwnslol wrote...

It's worse. Made for ADD kids too lazy to read, so they even added pictures. I hate ME style dialogue "wheel" it screams console oversimplification.

       Agreed. Fitting the dialogue to your character is important. If you don't constantly hit the "Brutal intimidating choice" on the wheel on every conversation then its almost like your character sounds like a different person. As if he has three different personalities. It doesn't fit and it doesn't work for me.

       This game does feel extremely mainstreamed and consoloed. I enjoyed the fast paced combat at first, but it got old fast. I cancelled my preorder because of the conversation wheel. I enjoyed the writing and the personalization of dialogue choice and it's just not here for me.

[jones0901]

its really not such a bad thing. the responses from the demo werent horrible. they said pretty much what i wanted, and conveyed a tone and attitude i was ok with. that being said, im sure there will be instances where the dialouge wheel doesnt adequately express intent. This also happened in DAO. I remember telling Morrigan i felt "sorry for the templars" who chased her. i meant because of the vengance she reigned down on them, not because she killed them.

i also dont really consider it over simplification either. there was a good amount of investigative questions, and really the format for dialouge exchange has changed but its not too disimilar from DAO. still, this issue will be prominent in debate for a long time. Just remember for every time Hawke says something you dont like, there is going to be a time where he says something really cool

[tmp7704]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

The paraphrase system doesn't force you to listen to anything. You make a choice, read the dialogue if you have your subtitles on, and then you hit ESC just like you always do when you want to skip listening to the VO if that's your inclination. How does that not allow you to skip things? You aren't forced to sit around listening to any VO as far as I know.

If it's okay for me to skip the audio as soon as i read the subtitle why insist on making me read the paraphrase first and then rely on the subtitles toggle in situation where the alternative of a "show full text instead of paraphrase" switch would lead to the same result, but without the awkward middle step of playing the paraphrase game which i obviously have no interest in, and which as such creates nothing but pointless delay?

[TEWR]

Sinferno wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

It's worse. Made for ADD kids too lazy to read, so they even added pictures. I hate ME style dialogue "wheel" it screams console oversimplification.

       Agreed. Fitting the dialogue to your character is important. If you don't constantly hit the "Brutal intimidating choice" on the wheel on every conversation then its almost like your character sounds like a different person. As if he has three different personalities. It doesn't fit and it doesn't work for me.

       This game does feel extremely mainstreamed and consoloed. I enjoyed the fast paced combat at first, but it got old fast. I cancelled my preorder because of the conversation wheel. I enjoyed the writing and the personalization of dialogue choice and it's just not here for me.

so you've never had different reactions to different scenarios? You've never been in a sarcastic mood one day, flat out pissed off another, and kinda nice the next? or even fluctuating between different moods and reactions in one day? It is completely realistic as people do this in real life. People won't always react the same way to everything.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 février 2011 - 01:14 .

[The Gentle Ben]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Hawke consoles his mother on sibling's death:

you pick "He won't be alone". Hawke says, "At least Father will have company now." which is entirely accurate on what the wheel presented considering Hawke's father died.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Except, again, the game hasn't mentioned yet that Hawke's father is dead, so the player doesn't necessarily know
that.  Also, when I chose that option, I meant it to mean that I was going to kill a bunch of other people out of
vengeance, and they would keep him company.  But that's nothing at all like what Hawke said.

And how is vengeance supposed to be charming? You picked the charming response, trying to comfort your grieving mother, and to you that equates itself to being vengeful? How does that work?

Maybe you picked the charming response trying to comfort your grieving mother, but I couldn't interpret the icon at all and still don't understand what it was or what it symbolized (granted I didn't spend a lot of time trying to figure it out... It is supposed to be intuitive right? Isn't that the point?).

Perhaps I am one of the stupid people you are talking about, but I had the same expectation as Sylvius. I picked the middle option between 1.) a paraphrase that seemed to indicate consoling your mother and 3.) a paraphrase that seemed hostile to your mother's "weakness". It seemed logical to my mind that as the medium between those two options, the paraphrase 2.) "He won't be alone" would signify a vengeful response, which seemed a completely reasonable reaction to be the situation in question (your sibling's death) and was closest to my preferred intent.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 26 février 2011 - 01:20 .

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
It's quite different, i think -- without the tone indicator about the only confusion you can have when it comes to the full sentences is whether they're meant to be 'straight' or a case of irony (since irony requires meaning the opposite of what you actually say, something the text itself by definition cannot convey) 

There are three problems with this view. The first is by saying "the only". This minimizes how significant the problem is. Since you try to offer a way that silent VO could handle this, I'll put this objection aside.

The other problem is that, in fact, statements are ambiguous.

A sentence, in isolation from the intention and thought that went into composing it, isn't actually sufficient in disambiguating meaning.

It is not just irony that's hard to get - happiness, anger.. emotions in general are hard to catch with silent text, which is why you don't really ever get to express anything other than open-ended question and then these narrow 3 paths, like Gaidner explained.

The third point (and here is where I argue for the value of VO and by extension the paraphrase) is by allowing for an active and dynamic PC instead of a passive one. I understand that there are people here who want to play a passive character, or a personality that sticks in the background. That's fine. But silent VO doesn't allow you to go from passive to active. That's an incredible loss.

That said, there's ways to indicate irony in text.

e.g. You're so "smart" Alistair. makes it rather obvious this line isn't intended to be actual praise.

Like I said: of course you can do this (it would be like adding an intent icon). Som might just object to the fact that it gives the dialogue a tone by neccesity.

On the other hand the paraphrase can roughly match the full line, but shift the tone by some margin making it appear softer or more harsh than the full line; not really complete opposite. Though of course, without the intent icon the paraphrase/full text system on top of that inherits the irony problem of the full text approach.

Like I said in my original post: the debate over intent icons is a debate over whether each line ought to have a fixed tone (it always does with VO) but my argument is that it neccesarily should in full text silent RPGs, so the fact that VO gives us a fixed voice isn't actually a problem.

My other argument is that there is no value in matching the line entirely. What matters is whether the general effect is the same in the world; the inexact matching is a bonus because it avoids the "reading twice" problem, which reduces enjoyment.
 

I don't consider the full text without the intent indicator to be universal solution (mainly due to the mentioned irony problem). I'm just noting that the paraphrase brings its own set of problems, which in the end makes the system for me personally more difficult to use.

On the issue of the paraphrase being problematic for you personally, I grant that without question. On the paraphrase having its own set of problems, again, I agree.

Where we disagree is that the paraphrase

[GooftyGoober]

I Don't mind it but I do prefer the old school style of DA:O but Its not a game breaker for me.

[TEWR]

The Gentle Ben wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Hawke consoles his mother on sibling's death:

you pick "He won't be alone". Hawke says, "At least Father will have company now." which is entirely accurate on what the wheel presented considering Hawke's father died.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Except, again, the game hasn't mentioned yet that Hawke's father is dead, so the player doesn't necessarily know
that.  Also, when I chose that option, I meant it to mean that I was going to kill a bunch of other people out of
vengeance, and they would keep him company.  But that's nothing at all like what Hawke said.

And how is vengeance supposed to be charming? You picked the charming response, trying to comfort your grieving mother, and to you that equates itself to being vengeful? How does that work?

Maybe you picked the charming response trying to comfort your grieving mother, but I couldn't interpret the icon at all and still don't understand what it was or what it symbolized (granted I didn't spend a lot of time trying to figure it out... It is supposed to be intuitive right? Isn't that the point?).

Perhaps I am one of the stupid people you are talking about, but I had the same expectation as Sylvius. I picked the middle option between 1.) a paraphrase that seemed to indicate consoling your mother and 3.) a paraphrase that seemed hostile to your mother's "weakness". It seemed logical to my mind that as the medium between those two options, the paraphrase 2.) "He won't be alone" would signify a vengeful response, which seemed a completely reasonable reaction to be the situation in question (your sibling's death) and was closest to my prefered intent.

I don't recall it ever being called intuitive, though this may have been something the devs said without me realizing. If so, could you point me in that direction?

Anyway, vengeful to me would be along the lines of the Red Fist of Douchery, at best. It really doesn't make sense though(to me anyway) that the consoling option would mean you would say you're going to slay many soulless creatures so Carver isn't alone, especially after I read Hawke's codex saying his father was dead. Maybe that's why I got it so quickly, because I read Hawke's history and understood him a bit more. When I get a new codex, I immediately read it.

Disciples are the only Darkspawn to have souls, and even that's a tad iffy.