992 réponses à ce sujet

[JabberJaww]

I didn't mind the dialogue wheel on the demo. Don't get me wrong, I also love the traditional RPG dialogue elements used in KOTOR etc.... But I am not so boxed into my little gaming world that I won't give it a shot and probably will like it. DA:O wasn't exactly a traditional RPG anyway, i get bored of cookie cutter rpg's. They are trying something different. I do enjoy the full voice overs though.. better than looking at a puppet as you choose his next line.

[Erika T]

Hate it with passion. my character is not my character anymore, its just another stupid female shepard.

[JabberJaww]

theenigma77 wrote...

Love the voiced main character, hate the wheel. Fuse Dragon Age: Origins choices with DA2 voice acting and BAM your golden. They think just because it worked in ME2 mean it will work here? Nah no way. Not when you get your customers accustomed to something else first.

Agree with this.. keep the voice over main char (which I love), but still have the full dialogue options like in DA:O.. best of both worlds. Oh well

[EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I would like the conversation options to vary to extreme too, much like the Paragon/Renegade actions in ME2 did only instead on the dialogue wheel - they could work on how much strength or willpower you have, or popularity with the character you are speaking to. By extreme I mean to the point of hitting someone, shouting at them, or hugging them etc instead of a normal response.

[Erika T]

JabberJaww wrote...

theenigma77 wrote...

Love the voiced main character, hate the wheel. Fuse Dragon Age: Origins choices with DA2 voice acting and BAM your golden. They think just because it worked in ME2 mean it will work here? Nah no way. Not when you get your customers accustomed to something else first.

Agree with this.. keep the voice over main char (which I love), but still have the full dialogue options like in DA:O.. best of both worlds. Oh well

I agree with this.


I am sure I will get a lot of hate for the following comment, but - mass effect is a much moe dumb game than DAO.  dumb story, dumb characters, some cool fighting - dont get me wrong, i playeed it though a couple of times, enjoyable enough, but nothing immersing or interesting.  I never looked at a single codex.  DAO is intelligent, clever, deep and full of lore thats a pleasure to explore.  I daresay it attracts a different core customer.  why dumb it down?

[Selidor]

I didn't like having to guess at what the short paraphrases mean, but I don't mind the wheel otherwise. It doesn't feel any more limited in dialogue options than DAO to me.

It's impossible to play the character exactly as you want it, with exactly the right dialogue options just for you because it's a video game, not pen and paper. There were a couple of points in the demo where I struggled with which option to pick either because the paraphrase was unclear, or because I simply didn't like any of the options (there were occasions when they all felt too similar) but that's the limitations of a video game. More options would be great, but it's not a deal-breaker for me.

I love the voiced protagonist - I feel more involved in the game that way. The mute Warden felt sort of detached from everything.

Modifié par Selidor, 26 février 2011 - 02:02 .

[TEWR]

It seems as if people just have to compare something they've only seen a small inkling of to a flawed finished version they've already seen. I don't see how you can compare one to the other. I found it simplistic and quite accurate, not like Mass Effect's

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

There are three problems with this view. The first is by saying "the only". This minimizes how significant the problem is. Since you try to offer a way that silent VO could handle this, I'll put this objection aside.

Well, this is really the only situation i could think of where the intent couldn't be conveyed through text, any other (like happiness or anger which you mention) seem rather simple as long as the writer is being careful.

Although if your point is that while this is "only" one such situation, it can be frequent enough to make it a quite common problem then yes, that's probably a fair objection. I think these ways i mentioned can be used to mark the intent are a way to address it, though. Or it could be the intent icons, they're simple and functional after all.

The third point (and here is where I argue for the value of VO and by extension the paraphrase) is by allowing for an active and dynamic PC instead of a passive one. I understand that there are people here who want to play a passive character, or a personality that sticks in the background. That's fine. But silent VO doesn't allow you to go from passive to active. That's an incredible loss.

Hmm but isn't this one tied just to the VO, not really the paraphrase? I don't think having full text of your responses rather than paraphrases would in itself prevent the character from having voice and so he/she would still be able to take the active role. There's of course the issue of people possibly skipping the VO because they already know the text, but #1 that still doesn't prevent the character from being active in the first place and #2 that's why i'd rather have the full text as option for these who value precision over the element of surprise when it comes to what their character gets to say.

My other argument is that there is no value in matching the line entirely. What matters is whether the general effect is the same in the world; the inexact matching is a bonus because it avoids the "reading twice" problem, which reduces enjoyment.

Well, i have to disagree with this based on the experience with DA2 demo -- the possibility that paraphrase didn't match the line entirely caused me to hesitate and second-guess while picking my responses, which slowed me down and introduced element of frustration which reduced enjoyment. And if reduction of enjoyment is recognized as problem where it comes to "reading twice" then it's only fair to recognize it as problem here. As such, removing this problem can certainly have value, imo.

This effect happens because what my character says matters to me as much as what effect it has in the world -- i treat it as reflection of their personality so when character says something that i don't think they'd say being what they are, it creates a jarring gap, a sense of disconnection from the person in the game.

Where we disagree is that the paraphrase

It looks your reply got cut off at this point, unfortunately

Modifié par tmp7704, 26 février 2011 - 03:59 .

[RisenChudJr]

I love it

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

The assertion is implied by the question.  That's why it is a complex question.

That sort of implication is entirely unreasonable, assuming it exists at all (which I do not concede).
[.

Well it's there.  Because it is.  If you don't understand I will not explain it further.

[gilgalad80]

All due respect to the Bioware staff (David Gaider), but is it necessary to be so aggressive and sarcastic towards us (mere mortal) forum members here? Isn't the purpose of these forums to give players a chance to express their views and exchange opinions, maintaining an inviting community for players, hence sustaining interest in your products?

I understand it must be frustrating for devs that many people misjudge certain aspects and make assumptions, but wouldn't the final product be enough to persuade them if this is the case?

After all we are your customers.  I think a more civil / neutral tone would be more appreciated.

On topic: I don't mind the new dialogue system, but I do prefer having the full text displayed.
Will not rush to judge anything until I play the full game. On a side note, I do hope there are some exploration sequences and not just waves of enemies and dialogue sequences.

Modifié par gilgalad80, 26 février 2011 - 06:06 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

JrayM16 wrote...

Well it's there.  Because it is.  If you don't understand I will not explain it further.

You can't explain it further, because there is no explanation.

That the question implies something is a matter of convention, but that doesn't make it true.

[Sylvius the Mad]

gilgalad80 wrote...

All due respect to the Bioware staff (David Gaider), but is it necessary to be so aggressive and sarcastic towards us (mere mortal) forum members here?

I don't think David is generally aggressive toward us, and I don't think he was particularly sarcastic in this thread.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 26 février 2011 - 10:44 .

[TEWR]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

gilgalad80 wrote...

All due respect to the Bioware staff (David Gaider), but is it necessary to be so aggressive and sarcastic towards us (mere mortal) forum members here?

I don't think David is generally aggressive toward us, and I don't think he was particularly sarcastic in this thread.

well, he has been aggressive I think on the forums before, but it was only to people who deserved it and had it coming. Here though, yes he has been very civil to us, trying to explain why the DA2 system is the same as DA:O. If anything the system isn't any less complex. I think the system is a win. All the dialogue options are still present, and nothing has significantly changed.

EDIT: I also don't think they're paying much attention to this thread anymore.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 février 2011 - 11:28 .

[TEWR]

David Gaider wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Voicing the protagonist ties us to the delivery the writers intended.  This is bad.

You've always been limited to the delivery we writers intended, as even in DAO the world reacted to that intention and not whatever you made up in your head. We select the possible responses and that's all you get.

And, yes, I know you like to imagine your own delivery, and resign any failure of the world to heed that as their misunderstanding, as if they are incapable of understanding communication. So, yes, we no longer allow you to play a character with Asperger's.

Are there drawbacks for that limitation? Sure, just as there are drawbacks for the unvoiced protaganist (see the Landsmeet, for instance, and the address of the soldiers at Denerim as two places in DAO where having a protaganist able to speak would have been a real plus on the design side). If having an unvoiced protaganist is the only way for you to believe you're roleplaying, then this isn't the game for you-- but that doesn't make it not a roleplaying game, or any worse of a design, as there are many people indeed who don't see that as a limitation on their ability to get into character.

And those are the limitations we've chosen to live with this time around. In this case, the benefits are worth the limitations we've given up. And that's all there is to say about it. If the demo didn't convince you that the writers can deliver, then that's all you really need to know, isn't it?

Out of curiosity Mr. Gaider, why was the main protagonist of DA:O left unvoiced? Was it due to time constraints, the number of origin stories which would've meant many voice actors, personal developing preference? Was it some other reason? I'm just really curious if you guys wanted DA:O to have a voiced protagonist, but couldn't so made sure to do that here, or whatever else it might have been.

Also, I thought the demo delivered perfectly myself. While the whole sibling death is a writing technique used a lot in stories, it's how it's delivered in each story that keeps it from becoming trite, which you guys got perfect for here. I even started to tear up, and only maybe 4 other video games have made me either tear up or actually cry.

EDIT: I considered it good actually (however, I'm still somewhat of an amateur writer, so i don't know a whole lot about writing techniques) maybe some others will call it bad writing, but you know, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 février 2011 - 12:33 .

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Well it's there.  Because it is.  If you don't understand I will not explain it further.

You can't explain it further, because there is no explanation.

That the question implies something is a matter of convention, but that doesn't make it true.

An implication is an assertion not directly stated.

[Brockololly]

RisenChudJr wrote...

I love it

Me too!

[TEWR]

That..... face..... is..... awesome.



what would make it even better is if you substituted a trollface for the drama mask.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 février 2011 - 12:53 .

[Mariefoxprice83]

Not bothered either way, though I did keep forgetting that there were more than 3 options sometimes in the demo and not trying no. 4 on the left! I always read the full text unless I am going bakc to a previous save to redo a bad decision or skipping a scene I have otherwise done multiple times and am not in the mood to see again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

JrayM16 wrote...

An implication is an assertion not directly stated.

If it's indirectly stated, I'd agree with you.

The only implication that matters is that where the implied statement is logically guaranteed by the explicit content.  And that's not the case, here.

You're conflating two mutually exclusive uses of the word "implication".

[Nemis-Roidsavelt]

I like the old version better. However, its not the end of the world. Ugh what am i saying. Why am i defending Bioware in this situation........ their whole zevran arguement was a bunch of bull also. You could easily figure out how to not flirt with him. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it. Make it go away. ugh. I feel more influenced now to pick the good option, instead of just being myself and picking what i think i would say best. Can i atleast have the option to scramble it and turn the wheel off?!

[Nemis-Roidsavelt]

Brockololly wrote...

RisenChudJr wrote...

I love it

Me too!

i just laughed for 3min straight.

[borelocin]

Brockololly wrote...

RisenChudJr wrote...

I love it

Me too!

Now that's bloody funny.

[MADH1GHLAND3R]

The thing that bothers me the most is how easy decision making will be, imagine any of the difficult choices DA:O such as the ritual with the good/evil pictures. I want the old system back, or even the wheel but with the pictures taken out and the order of responses randomized.

[DPB]

MADH1GHLAND3R wrote...

The thing that bothers me the most is how easy decision making will be, imagine any of the difficult choices DA:O such as the ritual with the good/evil pictures. I want the old system back, or even the wheel but with the pictures taken out and the order of responses randomized.

Those aren't "good/evil" pictures, they're personality options. When you're making a decision those icons aren't even used.