992 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Unless I'm thinking of the wrong thing, Priming Studies actually measure things that are beyond the scope of knowledge (implicit memories, or something like that).  I don't see the relevance.

Priming studies can prime behaviour. For example, you can subliminally flash "ocean-moon" and then ask people their favourite brand of detergent. The group that received "moon" will respond "Tide" more frequently. When asked why, they will give lots of explanations... but the answer is most likely that the word "tide" was primed by the word pair in a semantic network and just happened to be a homonym for a detergent.

[Nilbog79]

In Exile wrote...

Nilbog79 wrote...
There is a number of ways to solve the problem of uneven distribution of tones. Responses could be weighted according to their frequency. Most likely though the number of responses in the entire dialogue would work out evenly anyway, even if some dialogues are biased towards one tone.

That becomes punishing. So I have to be aggresive 8 times to re-write my one charming choice? It's not so easy to come up with the ideal implementation.

It was done in Origins. I don't know how different the budget for DA2 was from budget for DAO, of course.

What? No it didn't. Origins often had 2 options be worded differently and give you the exact same outcome. Whenever you actually had a choice it was essentially nice or naughty and sometimes you had a third option, too. But quests with multiple solutions was not something Bioware did in DA:O.

I would be a sign of really bad writing on part of Bioware if there were 8 times as many angry responses as there were diplomatic ones. Again, I'm certain that there will be on average an equal number of responses of each type even if some conversations may have more angry responses and some more diplomatic responses.
That's assuming you even want to classify all responses according to one of three tones. I'm not sure this feature is really worth it.
And, just one example off the top of my head, the Connor quest had one Paragon response (go to Circle Tower) and two Renegade ones (1. kill the boy, 2. use Blood Magic to save the boy but kill Isolde). Each one had different content tied to it.
Also a lot of companion dialogue often has unique little responses to each of your dialogue lines, even though it returns to the main route immediately. However, if two different responses lead to same exact outcome, there is no problem anyway, no extra resources need to be spent.

Modifié par Nilbog79, 27 février 2011 - 11:21 .

[In Exile]

tmp7704 wrote...
The problem starts right from trying to decide the composition of the test groups, i'd think. Do you test your existing playerbase (and good luck figuring out good representative sample for that in the first place)? Or is that for some market group you're aiming for that may or may not be quite different from it? Or is it some mix of both? If so, what sort of a mix is that? Etc and so on, there's enough variety and issues in this alone to potentially render any results beyond some most universal trends highly meaningless.

I don't think you'd test your exsting player base at all (why would you?). You'd test gamers as a whole - they are your target market. You could restrict it to fans of a genre, maybe... but that's really all you'd want.

I don't see much a problem re: the same in market research.

[In Exile]

Nilbog79 wrote...
I would be a sign of really bad writing on part of Bioware if there were 8 times as many angry responses as there were diplomatic ones.

Ah, that was my fault. In DA2, to avoid appearing unstable, switching from one personality to another is non-linear. Each time you switch the amount of "new" responses needed to switch again rises. If there are more aggresive answers than diplomatic, and you've already switched around a bit... you might be quite in deep and lacking the requisite choices to switch.

Again, I'm certain that there will be on average an equal number of responses of each type even if some conversations may have more angry responses and some more diplomatic responses.

Why would there be?

And, just one example off the top of my head, the Connor quest had one Paragon response (go to Circle Tower) and two Renegade ones (1. kill the boy, 2. use Blood Magic to save the boy but kill Isolde). Each one had different content tied to it.

The Conner quest had 2 solutions (with some variation): Fade or kill the boy. They added a bit more development to the Fade option by letting you go back to the tower or kill Isolde.

But that was a major choice. It ended off a quest route, comparable to your choice with the Wolves in the Brecillian forest.

What Ben was talking about was more choices per practically minor conversations like one for a dead character in the prologue (yes, dead sister, great.. but 40 more hours of content to go).

Also a lot of companion dialogue often has unique little responses to each of your dialogue lines, even though it returns to the main route immediately. However, if two different responses lead to same exact outcome, there is no problem anyway, no extra resources need to be spent.

Yes, absolutely. But you have to make sure that response leads back. And if you have 4 options per conversation instead of 3.... that adds up significantly over the course of a game.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

I don't think you'd test your exsting player base at all (why would you?).

Aren't you interested in knowing which exactly aspects of your product draws them to it? How do you plan to evolve without knowing this? 

You'd test gamers as a whole - they are your target market.

Why is it gamers as opposed to people who aren't playing games? Wouldn't testing why your product isn't appealing to non-gamers help you potentially tap into much larger market than the one you already have?

When it comes to "just" gamers, how would you structure the group? "Gamers" is about as nebulous as "car drivers" or "movie goers".

You could restrict it to fans of a genre, maybe... but that's really all you'd want.

See, "maybe". But then again, maybe not. And if you do decide it is the maybe after all, then do you restrict it exclusively to the people who play the genre, or maybe do some sort of split? And if it's split, then is it 50:50 or maybe something different? And that part not restricted to the genre, how do you structure them?

That's the problem with all the possibilites. And then in the end, after you eventually do decide the exact composition and perform your tests... what do the results really get you, keeping in mind the endless and equally valid alternatives you could've tested instead?

[TEWR]

Marbazoid wrote...

The one thing that bothers me about the the three "tones" is that in order to rp a consistent character, your mostly going to choose the same spot on the wheel every-time, rather than choose a response on a case by case basis.

In Mass Effect it boiled down to exhausting investigate options, then selecting upper right/lower right until conversation concludes.

people aren't consistent though. They have different reactions to different scenarios. So imo trying to rp a consistent character would make Hawke all the more less of a person and more of a husk. I become more so the puppeteer than I should be.

[AkiKishi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

people aren't consistent though. They have different reactions to different scenarios. So imo trying to rp a consistent character would make Hawke all the more less of a person and more of a husk. I become more so the puppeteer than I should be.

Have you played the demo purposefuly flipping through different "tones" ? Hawke sounds like he has mutiple personality disorder.

[Nilbog79]

In Exile wrote...

Nilbog79 wrote...
I would be a sign of really bad writing on part of Bioware if there were 8 times as many angry responses as there were diplomatic ones.

Ah, that was my fault. In DA2, to avoid appearing unstable, switching from one personality to another is non-linear. Each time you switch the amount of "new" responses needed to switch again rises. If there are more aggresive answers than diplomatic, and you've already switched around a bit... you might be quite in deep and lacking the requisite choices to switch.

Sorry, I misunderstood.
But I don't see it as that much of a problem anyway. People who want to play their character as one of three predefined personalities will most likely go full nice/angry/funny anyway, so any weighing is not an issue for them. For people who want to play a more complicated personality, the tone the game assigns to the response will be meaningless anyway.

In Exile wrote...

Nilbog79 wrote...

Again, I'm certain that there will be on average an equal number of responses of each type even if some conversations may have more angry responses and some more diplomatic responses.

Why would there be?

If they write a sensible range of possible responses in each dialogue, I think about half of them will work out as nice and half as bad. Also, some decisions are not obviously aggressive/diplomatic. (e.g. there may be many motivations for choosing Bhalen for the throne). Those could just be assigned arbitrarily as aggressive/diplomatic to balance the numbers.

In Exile wrote...

Nilbog79 wrote...

And, just one example off the top of my head, the Connor quest had one Paragon response (go to Circle Tower) and two Renegade ones (1. kill the boy, 2. use Blood Magic to save the boy but kill Isolde). Each one had different content tied to it.

The Conner quest had 2 solutions (with some variation): Fade or kill the boy. They added a bit more development to the Fade option by letting you go back to the tower or kill Isolde.

But that was a major choice. It ended off a quest route, comparable to your choice with the Wolves in the Brecillian forest.

What Ben was talking about was more choices per practically minor conversations like one for a dead character in the prologue (yes, dead sister, great.. but 40 more hours of content to go).

Also a lot of companion dialogue often has unique little responses to each of your dialogue lines, even though it returns to the main route immediately. However, if two different responses lead to same exact outcome, there is no problem anyway, no extra resources need to be spent.

Yes, absolutely. But you have to make sure that response leads back. And if you have 4 options per conversation instead of 3.... that adds up significantly over the course of a game.

I agree, that adding hours of unique content to every single dialogue would not work. However, even two different angry responses with exact same reply to each would be better than just one. That worked well enough in DAO. Also if a funny response is out of place in a particular situation, it should not be there really.
Possible dialogie responses I believe should be available according to situation, unconstrained by the fact that there needs to be exactly one of each type. If then Bioware want to assign a tone to them, that's fine.
If there has to be no more than three non-investigative options due to financial constraints, ok but in some situations one angry and two nice or one nice and two funny options may be more appropriate.

Modifié par Nilbog79, 28 février 2011 - 12:03 .

[TEWR]

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

people aren't consistent though. They have different reactions to different scenarios. So imo trying to rp a consistent character would make Hawke all the more less of a person and more of a husk. I become more so the puppeteer than I should be.

Have you played the demo purposefuly flipping through different "tones" ? Hawke sounds like he has mutiple personality disorder.

I have. and it's completely normal to have differing reactions to different events (within reason). What you call multiple personality disorder isn't what you think it is. Either that, or I have multiple personality disorder myself and I'm blind to it and how it works.

[OrganizedChaos826]

wowpwnslol wrote...

It's worse. Made for ADD kids too lazy to read, so they even added pictures. I hate ME style dialogue "wheel" it screams console oversimplification.

Excuse me? I have ADD, and I enjoyed the list of dialogue options in Dragon Age Origins. Please refrain from posting if all you have to say is harsh comments towards people with disorders.

Anyways, I personally like the new dialogue system. When you think about it, it's not that different. Instead of a list, it's a wheel. How is that so horrible? I just think people are overreacting about it <_<

I don't think it's better or worse. I like both dialogue systems.

[AkiKishi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have. and it's completely normal to have differing reactions to different events (within reason). What you call multiple personality disorder isn't what you think it is. Either that, or I have multiple personality disorder myself and I'm blind to it and how it works.

The inflections the VA's put on different "tones" exagerates it to an almost comical level.

Easiest way is to compare to the Shepards. Even between Paragon and Renegade, they still sound consitent.

Now whether its down to how the writers wrote the lines, or just that the voice actors are not in the same league as those used for ME , don't know.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 février 2011 - 12:10 .

[Vit246]

Would it be too much to ask for both dialogue wheel and full-text as an option? Pick one or the other?

[Xewaka]

OrganizedChaos826 wrote...
Anyways, I personally like the new dialogue system. When you think about it, it's not that different. Instead of a list, it's a wheel. How is that so horrible?

Because instead of giving us the full line to review and have a measure of information on our choice, we are given a paraphrase that might or might not have anything to do with what our character will say, thus effectively making us choose based on dumb luck. It's not the shape of the new interface, it's the amount of information given by it.

[TEWR]

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have. and it's completely normal to have differing reactions to different events (within reason). What you call multiple personality disorder isn't what you think it is. Either that, or I have multiple personality disorder myself and I'm blind to it and how it works.

The inflections the VA's put on different "tones" exagerates it to an almost comical level.

maybe to you, and that's your opinion. I respect it. But to me, I saw no problem with it as far as the demo showed me. If it becomes borderline, or even past the borders
"I want cake!"
"No I don't!"
"Yes I do!"
"NO!!"
"Who the **** are you!?"
"The cake is a lie!!"

then I'll reconsider my stance.

Have you never been angry at one scenario, then comical at another, entirely different scenario? I have. Letting my emotions rule who I am and how I act is not a good thing.

[AkiKishi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have. and it's completely normal to have differing reactions to different events (within reason). What you call multiple personality disorder isn't what you think it is. Either that, or I have multiple personality disorder myself and I'm blind to it and how it works.

The inflections the VA's put on different "tones" exagerates it to an almost comical level.

maybe to you, and that's your opinion. I respect it. But to me, I saw no problem with it as far as the demo showed me. If it becomes borderline, or even past the borders
"I want cake!"
"No I don't!"
"Yes I do!"
"NO!!"
"Who the **** are you!?"
"The cake is a lie!!"

then I'll reconsider my stance.

Have you never been angry at one scenario, then comical at another, entirely different scenario? I have. Letting my emotions rule who I am and how I act is not a good thing.

You kind of proved my point there.

If you don't consider it a good thing when you do it. Why should I consider it a good thing when Hawke does it?

[TEWR]

I think you took me TOO literally there. I mean I'm not going to be angry at one moment, then be angry throughout the whole day to every person I see, especially to friends. I'll still be angry at that moment, but letting emotions rule my thinking is bad when it's not warranted, especially in different scenarios. Hawke has sufficient reason to act the way he does, with the running from the Blight and his siblings acting like idiots damaging their chances of surviving.

edit: I'm also not asking you to consider anything past what you already consider. I'm just explaining my stance on Hawke's persona.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 février 2011 - 12:24 .

[AkiKishi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think you took me TOO literally there. I mean I'm not going to be angry at one moment, then be angry throughout the whole day to every person I see, especially to friends. I'll still be angry at that moment, but letting emotions rule my thinking is bad when it's not warranted, especially in different scenarios. Hawke has sufficient reason to act the way he does, with the running from the Blight and his siblings acting like idiots damaging their chances of surviving.

Well I can be all those things but my personality remains consistent. 
 
The problem with Hawke is it can sound like different characters depending on the tone. As I said it's not something that happens in ME, maybe because the VA's are better, or the lines are better.

[TEWR]

maybe it only seems that way because this is a months old demo, with maybe even months old VA's who did better a second time around. While I'm not positive on this, and the developers haven't said anything saying it is, everything seems to point to it being a very old demo, from all the downgrades people are saying this demo has in comparison to DA:O.

or maybe it just is ****ty VA's who couldn't properly get the lines right. who knows.

[Marbazoid]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

people aren't consistent though. They have different reactions to different scenarios. So imo trying to rp a consistent character would make Hawke all the more less of a person and more of a husk. I become more so the puppeteer than I should be.

Have you played the demo purposefuly flipping through different "tones" ? Hawke sounds like he has mutiple personality disorder.

I have. and it's completely normal to have differing reactions to different events (within reason). What you call multiple personality disorder isn't what you think it is. Either that, or I have multiple personality disorder myself and I'm blind to it and how it works.

Just an example from the demo:

The first scene after the exageration where it introduces hawke and the family for the first time. The first prompt you may select the sarcastic/funny line, wich makes light of the situation. Then your family responds in a similarly non serious tone, to wich you can then respond with the aggressive icon, chiding your family for not taking the situation seriously.

The whole thing just came off as awkward, and it seems the best soloution to avoid that would have been to select the sarcastic icon at every oppertunity.

[TEWR]

they weren't making light of the situation, they were playing the blame game, endangering their lives. Your option isn't so much making light of the situation either, but giving a clear point to your mother in a slightly joking fashion, but not enough to make light of the situation, that things could've been much worse than your house burning down.

[Weiser_Cain]

I think it's incomplete. There's more to my character than good meh and evil.

[TEWR]

Weiser_Cain wrote...

I think it's incomplete. There's more to my character than good meh and evil.

It's not good, evil, and the middle road. It's personality and tone. These things existed in DA:O, but just weren't as clear cut and obvious to the players

[AkiKishi]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Weiser_Cain wrote...

I think it's incomplete. There's more to my character than good meh and evil.

It's not good, evil, and the middle road. It's personality and tone. These things existed in DA:O, but just weren't as clear cut and obvious to the players

Although in DA you got a complete response rather than a key phrase which meant less guess work. That plus tone icon would seem to sort things out.

[TEWR]

maybe. But even in Origins there were times when players (myself included) messed up conversations because we didn't know what was the "find out more info" dialogue and what was the "shut the hell up and let's get going" dialogue.

Personally, I'm not a fan of most silent protagonist games. Pokemon, Suikoden IV (the only one I have), and Dragon Age are the only ones with a silent protagonist that I like.

[Maria Caliban]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Unless I'm thinking of the wrong thing, Priming Studies actually measure things that are beyond the scope of knowledge (implicit memories, or something like that).  I don't see the relevance.

Priming studies can prime behaviour. For example, you can subliminally flash "ocean-moon" and then ask people their favourite brand of detergent. The group that received "moon" will respond "Tide" more frequently. When asked why, they will give lots of explanations... but the answer is most likely that the word "tide" was primed by the word pair in a semantic network and just happened to be a homonym for a detergent.

How long does that effect last?