992 réponses à ce sujet

[Drowsy0106]

I don't mind it, can see the need for smiley faces. Not everyone is blessed with a PC.



But coming from DA:O i do miss the old system, don't get me wrong though - sometimes i just like being spoon fed, but doesn't everyone. However i am all grown up now, damnit!

[David Gaider]

Clonedzero wrote...

in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.

(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)

its just presented in a wheel this time.

This is exactly the case.

In Origins we had instances of these kinds of "personality" hubs, as outlined above, where it's more about how you're saying something that making actual decisions on what to do. They, too, had the same three basic options-- something we've done in variations since Baldur's Gate.

Then there are "choice" hubs where you are deciding what to do, and there are no icons except for those actions that need clarification on the intent, such as "this will lead to combat" and "this is asking for money".

Again, no different than in Origins.

If the intent from someone is to imply that moving the investigate options into a seperate wheel (rather than having them as part of the main list, as in Origins) or adding an icon to clarify tone (which, no, was not self-evident to everyone who played Origins) somehow makes it simpler rather than different from Origins is very much missing the point.

You may not like that the layout is different from Origins, but it's truly not as different as some people seem to want everyone to believe. Not liking something doesn't make it "for dumb people", which is the implication that some people keep making. Which is too bad, as I'd hate for someone's love of Origins-- a sentiment I share-- predispose them to disliking something based only on the fact that it's not Origins.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 février 2011 - 04:30 .

[AkiKishi]

David Gaider wrote...

This is exactly the case.

In Origins we had instances of these kinds of "personality" hubs, as outlined above, where it's more about how you're saying something that making actual decisions on what to do. They, too, had the same three basic options-- something we've done in variations since Baldur's Gate.

Then there are "choice" hubs where you are deciding what to do, and there are no icons except for those actions that need clarification on the intent, such as "this will lead to combat" and "this is asking for money".

Again, no different than in Origins.

If the intent from someone is to imply that moving the investigate options into a seperate wheel (rather than having them as part of the main list, as in Origins) or adding an icon to clarify tone (which, no, was not self-evident to everyone who played Origins) somehow makes it simpler rather than different from Origins is very much missing the point.

You may not like that the layout is different from Origins, but it's truly not as different as some people seem to want everyone to believe. Not liking something doesn't make it "for dumb people", which is the implication that some people keep making. Which is too bad, as I'd hate for someone's love of Origins-- a sentiment I share-- predispose them to disliking something based only on the fact that it's not Origins.

Except it's not really the case. In Origins what you selected was your reply. Now it's a sort of hit and miss combination of keyword and spoken line.

That's the key diference to Origins, not just putting something on a wheel as opposed to a list.

[AsheraII]

I saw a couple of different icons, so they're not just 3 paths, but make for a few more combinations of flavours.

The questionmark icon was interesting too, since those seem to imply some harder decisions where the optimal choice is less obvious.

[elearon1]

BobSmith101 wrote...
I'd prefer not having a voice at all. But the reason we are stuck with this system is because they went the single voiced protagonist route of ME2.

I'm withholding judgement till I get the full game but thus far it seems like having a voiced protagonist adversly affects the RP options.

I will give you this: Having a voiced and predefined character limits replayability to some extent.

That said, aside from the Origin stories, I never felt "Origins" had much replayability either - the game was far too linear to encourage more than a couple playthroughs. 

I suspect this will have about the same kind of replayability as games like KotoR; which were fantastic games and probably would not have sufferent that much for having a voiced PC.

[Galad22]

David Gaider wrote...

This is exactly the case.

In Origins we had instances of these kinds of "personality" hubs, as outlined above, where it's more about how you're saying something that making actual decisions on what to do. They, too, had the same three basic options-- something we've done in variations since Baldur's Gate.

Then there are "choice" hubs where you are deciding what to do, and there are no icons except for those actions that need clarification on the intent, such as "this will lead to combat" and "this is asking for money".

Again, no different than in Origins.

If the intent from someone is to imply that moving the investigate options into a seperate wheel (rather than having them as part of the main list, as in Origins) or adding an icon to clarify tone (which, no, was not self-evident to everyone who played Origins) somehow makes it simpler rather than different from Origins is very much missing the point.

You may not like that the layout is different from Origins, but it's truly not as different as some people seem to want everyone to believe. Not liking something doesn't make it "for dumb people", which is the implication that some people keep making. Which is too bad, as I'd hate for someone's love of Origins-- a sentiment I share-- predispose them to disliking something based only on the fact that it's not Origins.

It is not as I said, if you can't know what you are saying you aren't really roleplaying anything, but playing as someone else. This is the problem.

[FieryDove]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Except it's not really the case. In Origins what you selected was your reply. Now it's a sort of hit and miss combination of keyword and spoken line.

That's the key diference to Origins, not just putting something on a wheel as opposed to a list.

True. added to that the tone/personality leaves me scratching my head. I want to be nice to family, snarky at all other times except when (Like templar wants to kill Beth)  so I pick aggressive. So the game will freak out becasue I can't slot myself in one type of response. Will I lose game? Die? Make all companions and family hate me because I'm not "consistant". I don't know.

[Amfortas]

in Origins you chose what you wanted to say, in DAII you choose the intent of what you want to say. What you say is not important. I can't like that.

But leaving that aside, is there a reason why the answers have to be in order?

[Adhin]

Your still selecting your reply. You just know your intent now instead of the exact wording. Its basically a mild shift. Ultimately 'intent' to me, is more important then exact wording and leads to a lot less 'oops' moments.

Personally I like the wheel system and how it all works in ME and in DA2. Though I don't like how ME is obviously split into 2 'paths'. Paragon and Renegade, which is this big central mechanic. I don't mind it but I just don't like it for trying to RP a character outside that line since maxing out your bar is important for stuff.

Now with DA2, its not '3 paths' or 2 paths (like ME) its multiple intents, that are placed into 3 basic category on the right side. It's more of a roleplay experience like DAO was, just easier for me to direct the RP due to actually knowing the intent. Which to me? big part of roleplaying. Reasoning behind stuff, your intent, is more important to me then 'what' your doing. Sometimes bad people do 'good things' for not so good reasons. And most games don't really give you that kind of an option.

[Shad0wOGRE]

David Gaider wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.

(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)

its just presented in a wheel this time.

This is exactly the case.

In Origins we had instances of these kinds of "personality" hubs, as outlined above, where it's more about how you're saying something that making actual decisions on what to do. They, too, had the same three basic options-- something we've done in variations since Baldur's Gate.

Then there are "choice" hubs where you are deciding what to do, and there are no icons except for those actions that need clarification on the intent, such as "this will lead to combat" and "this is asking for money".

Again, no different than in Origins.

If the intent from someone is to imply that moving the investigate options into a seperate wheel (rather than having them as part of the main list, as in Origins) or adding an icon to clarify tone (which, no, was not self-evident to everyone who played Origins) somehow makes it simpler rather than different from Origins is very much missing the point.

You may not like that the layout is different from Origins, but it's truly not as different as some people seem to want everyone to believe. Not liking something doesn't make it "for dumb people", which is the implication that some people keep making. Which is too bad, as I'd hate for someone's love of Origins-- a sentiment I share-- predispose them to disliking something based only on the fact that it's not Origins.

I like that the investigation options are in a seperate menu (aka dialogue wheel). There were several times in Origins when the conversation would suddenly end because I chose something that looked like question but was in fact a "let's get the conversation moving option".

[-Skorpious-]

FieryDove wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Except it's not really the case. In Origins what you selected was your reply. Now it's a sort of hit and miss combination of keyword and spoken line.

That's the key diference to Origins, not just putting something on a wheel as opposed to a list.

True. added to that the tone/personality leaves me scratching my head. I want to be nice to family, snarky at all other times except when (Like templar wants to kill Beth)  so I pick aggressive. So the game will freak out becasue I can't slot myself in one type of response. Will I lose game? Die? Make all companions and family hate me because I'm not "consistant". I don't know.

If I interpreted your post correctly, your "tone" can change throughout the game depending on your choices. If you are mostly sarcastic, your tone will be sarcastic. however, if you change your mind mid-game and go diplomatic (assuming you use this option frequently) your tone will reflect your new "personality". 

[David Gaider]

Galad22 wrote...
It is not as I said, if you can't know what you are saying you aren't really roleplaying anything, but playing as someone else. This is the problem.

The original comment was about the "three paths" and the tone icons.

If you don't like paraphrasing the responses, that's fine-- I'm well aware that not everyone's a fan of that system-- but it's also something quite different. If you're going to blend them together as if they're the exact same thing then every conversation is going to break down into "I didn't like x", "but x isn't what you're saying it is", "yeah, but I hated y" ...which isn't all that helpful.

[Zigzaggy]

This is exactly the point of people's objections to the paraphrase wheel Bob.



Quite naturally the devs will try to flannal you with waffle..even so a poll would garner a consensus that Bioware staff actually participating in their own official forum ...is desirable,appreciated and in times when most Devteams are scuttling off to Twitter to avoid awkward questions..they should be lauded.



Doesn't stop us asking the question though . If DG shared our sentiment of loving Origins..why divert away from it so drastically.They can claim it isn't dumbed down all day.but however short the demo it is a demonstration of 'dumbed down' we cannot avoid that with spin.

[Tasuru]

David Gaider wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.

(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)

its just presented in a wheel this time.

This is exactly the case.

In Origins we had instances of these kinds of "personality" hubs, as outlined above, where it's more about how you're saying something that making actual decisions on what to do. They, too, had the same three basic options-- something we've done in variations since Baldur's Gate.

Then there are "choice" hubs where you are deciding what to do, and there are no icons except for those actions that need clarification on the intent, such as "this will lead to combat" and "this is asking for money".

Again, no different than in Origins.

If the intent from someone is to imply that moving the investigate options into a seperate wheel (rather than having them as part of the main list, as in Origins) or adding an icon to clarify tone (which, no, was not self-evident to everyone who played Origins) somehow makes it simpler rather than different from Origins is very much missing the point.

You may not like that the layout is different from Origins, but it's truly not as different as some people seem to want everyone to believe. Not liking something doesn't make it "for dumb people", which is the implication that some people keep making. Which is too bad, as I'd hate for someone's love of Origins-- a sentiment I share-- predispose them to disliking something based only on the fact that it's not Origins.

This. All of this. Most definetly this.

Thanks for your input, hopefully this opens some eyes.

[AkiKishi]

Galad22 wrote...

It is not as I said, if you can't know what you are saying you aren't really roleplaying anything, but playing as someone else. This is the problem.

Well because you are. Shepard and Hawke are pre-generated characters. Some people just tend not to spot that in the same way you can in say a JRPG.

It's like the last bastion of oldschool CRPGs has fallen with DA..

Zigzaggy wrote...
Doesn't stop us asking the question though . If DG shared our sentiment of loving Origins..why divert away from it so drastically.They can claim it isn't dumbed down all day.but however short the demo it is a demonstration of 'dumbed down' we cannot avoid that with spin.

Their goals differ from ours. They are probably looking for the same sales jump from DA-DA2 as from ME-ME2 and reasoned that ME2 being more "arcadey" and simplified was the way to go. Especially now EA is at the helm.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 24 février 2011 - 04:46 .

[Kappa Neko]

I've grown to hate the ME dialogue wheel. Seeing it in DA, made me wanna cry. I spent a lot more time thinking about what to say in DAO. I could switch off my brain for Shepard's responses. BUT since DA2 won't force you into one path (I hope), it's an improvement. But what infuriates me most is that the answers have a set slot again. Good/diplomatic is the upper answer and bad/aggressive is the bottom answer. So why need the icons at all?? Same as ME! This sucks. So. Much.

I don't care that the number of answers is probably the same as in DAO. What's different is that I don't have to read the answers anymore. And because I don't know what the heck Hawke is going to answer, I actually do need those goddamn icons. Having the entire answer written down and then voiced by the character would be kind of boring, I agree. But it should be possible to come up with a short version that is not completely different to what you imagined Hawke's gonna say.

So what does the dialogue wheel do: it leaves no space for a full answer --> short answers --> requires marking them as good/ bad --> don't have to read the answer anymore.

Yeah, sounds great..............

[Wulfram]

I like the clearer investigation options. Though they sound awkward with a voiced protagonist.



I do wish there was a way tell how inappropriate Hawke's sense of humour would be before they said it.

[KennethAFTopp]

I honestly think you can actually have some postive surpises from the Paraphrase system, often I've snickered or outright laughed when I made a choices and then heard what shepherd actually said and I thought huh! that was cool.

I think there was a place in the DA 2 where that happened too.

Though Hawke seems very.. Laconic compared to Shepherd, at least based on the prologue of course.

[Merced652]

-Skorpious- wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Except it's not really the case. In Origins what you selected was your reply. Now it's a sort of hit and miss combination of keyword and spoken line.

That's the key diference to Origins, not just putting something on a wheel as opposed to a list.

True. added to that the tone/personality leaves me scratching my head. I want to be nice to family, snarky at all other times except when (Like templar wants to kill Beth)  so I pick aggressive. So the game will freak out becasue I can't slot myself in one type of response. Will I lose game? Die? Make all companions and family hate me because I'm not "consistant". I don't know.

If I interpreted your post correctly, your "tone" can change throughout the game depending on your choices. If you are mostly sarcastic, your tone will be sarcastic. however, if you change your mind mid-game and go diplomatic (assuming you use this option frequently) your tone will reflect your new "personality". 

Thats fundamentally incorrect. If your overriding personality changed nearly every line to a sarcastic/witty response because that was your overriding personality then i might actually be inclined to give a VO'd protag a chance after ME2. However all this system does is give you options based on your overriding personality. So if you're sarcastic then whenever you've progressed far enough in to the convo to get to use your personality line.. its sarcastic.. woohoo? Choose the diplomatic option enough times to make it overriding personality and that line changes to diplomatic. Doesn't seem all that great to me since you can only have 3 overriding personalities.

[Psearo]

Emperor Mars wrote...

I have played the old rpgs, I play D&D (3.5) and have been playing video game RPGS Since I have been playing video games (that was when I was like...7 I am 21 now)

and....I LIKE IT!


WHY? I just like it.
Games are about enjoyment, and I enjoy this system more.

Ditto.
Been playing CRPGs since Baldur's Gate first came out, (my first pc, using Windows 98!!!) and I'm loving what I've seen so far in the game.
The only thing that could make it perfect for me, would be to have two-handed animations for normal swords in the DA series.

[Adhin]

...wow yeah some of you are really confused at the personality thing. Its not Mass Effect. Personality is not tied directly into things past painting some phrasing. Choices you make and how you handle things is, like DAO, more important to the story progression. Like has been stated COUNTLESS times, they are not 3 separate paths.

@Fiery... No, just no. Just roleplay the character, try not to worry as your spazzing over baseless stuff.

@Amfortas, its setup in category so you know quickly which section is related to which personality in most situations. For instance middle is charming, snarky, sacrastic, often jokes. He's not going to outright try to be diplomatic and calm down 2 sides or specifically intend to talk things out. Nor is it the side that's going to be quick and aggressive with things. Most people are made up of all of these things, but some folks tend to favor 1 side, most folks tend to favor one side actually.

Some people lack a sense of humor all together so you could ignore the living crap outa that middle option to make a mostly aggressive char who is diplomatic at times. Like a grumpy, grizzled vet.

For instance my warrior is mostly a joker, but can be aggressive. In his chat with Flemmeth he went Middle to start, aggressive when pointing out he didn't need help, then a snarky comment about how the kings dead, then diplomatic in saying they don't have much choice so he'll take the help.

In areas where the 'personality' kicks in because its an end of a conversation it had pegged him as snarky personality and kept using them which worked great. Think yall should experiment with the demo more.

[Zigzaggy]

David Gaider wrote...

Galad22 wrote...
It is not as I said, if you can't know what you are saying you aren't really roleplaying anything, but playing as someone else. This is the problem.

The original comment was about the "three paths" and the tone icons.

If you don't like paraphrasing the responses, that's fine-- I'm well aware that not everyone's a fan of that system.

Noted.

Would say that a vast majority of DAO fans don't like the paraphrase wheel...don't see any topics in the archives of fans requesting it be implemented into the franchise.

I can see how it's made development much simpler,less complex and from a players perspective 'dumbed down'
.We cannot avoid that unfortunately people experience 4-5-6 choices of response as more complex than 3

[Zigzaggy]

Kappa Neko wrote...

I've grown to hate the ME dialogue wheel. Seeing it in DA, made me wanna cry. I spent a lot more time thinking about what to say in DAO. I could switch off my brain for Shepard's responses. BUT since DA2 won't force you into one path (I hope), it's an improvement. But what infuriates me most is that the answers have a set slot again. Good/diplomatic is the upper answer and bad/aggressive is the bottom answer. So why need the icons at all?? Same as ME! This sucks. So. Much.
...

Same..unfortunately that kind kind of feedback has no merit to it,they don't care.They have made the point on several occasions but like you..I refuse to accept it.

One can only hope DA2 bombs ...hopefully then the Devs can see the error in their ways and a return of the DAO format with DA3..If it isn't completed abandoned for a new IP

[FieryDove]

Adhin wrote...

...wow yeah some of you are really confused at the personality thing. Its not Mass Effect. Personality is not tied directly into things past painting some phrasing. Choices you make and how you handle things is, like DAO, more important to the story progression. Like has been stated COUNTLESS times, they are not 3 separate paths.
@Fiery... No, just no. Just roleplay the character, try not to worry as your spazzing over baseless stuff.
.

But one of the Dev's...maybe David himself said being consistant will make companions respect you. Or something to that effect. I know the demo is only a tiny fraction but I was all over the place in my type of responses. I think my worry is valid. I just hope the manual explains it. I appreciate everyone here trying too, but yes, I'm more confused than I was before. Sorry.

[Galad22]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

It is not as I said, if you can't know what you are saying you aren't really roleplaying anything, but playing as someone else. This is the problem.

Well because you are. Shepard and Hawke are pre-generated characters. Some people just tend not to spot that in the same way you can in say a JRPG.

It's like the last bastion of oldschool CRPGs has fallen with DA..

Indeed and I find it huge problem that you can't actually roleplay in a rpg.