992 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

FieryDove wrote...

But one of the Dev's...maybe David himself said being consistant will make companions respect you. Or something to that effect. I know the demo is only a tiny fraction but I was all over the place in my type of responses. I think my worry is valid. I just hope the manual explains it. I appreciate everyone here trying too, but yes, I'm more confused than I was before. Sorry.

I think the consistency they were talking about there was friendship/rivalry, which is based on whether you and the companion agree on issues which are important to them, rather than dialogue tone.

[tommo223]

I like it becouse it keeps the conversation flowing, i don't need the good, evil icons   Also I like the investigation part because I can get npc's to repeat needed info I may have missed.

Its probably the best way for it to be the way it is when there is a speaking PC. other wish there would be heaps of text on the screen. In DA:O it was manly short questions and answers like "You lost your sword?" or "you may know my Father, Teyrn cousland!" simple and short leaving the other to fill in the rest of the infomation.

In this new way we will only need to see the gist of whats to be said as there maybe longs speaches by our PC and if all the text was on the conversation choises it would be just a book of text, not that thats a bad thing, but i can picture the npc tapping their foot waiting for us to finnish reading all the possible things to say and choose. heh. I like it to flow as if it I were really talking to them with all the knowledge and insights of the world around me that i would have had if i did live in that world.

I much prefer a voiced PC with the wheal than any other way, with the PC not having a voice.

[Adhin]

Zig thats usually because people who don't like something are more vocal about it. Most of us who are happy with the change don't just go around constantly making posts about how much we enjoy it. Back with DAO, before it was even out, this was all reversed. Buncha people wanted it to be a wheel and, I didn't care (cause I like both systems honeslty). I prefer the wheel method, more so with there new twist on it with there not being a path and the intent made obvious.

Game got flack for your char being silent in a game full of voice over work. I know it made me feel a bit... disconnected but I still loved it. Either way wheels in, tables turned, some other vocal minority is whining. Majority don't care enough to actually come on these forums and **** about it.

[WilliamShatner]

Zigzaggy wrote...

Kappa Neko wrote...

I've grown to hate the ME dialogue wheel. Seeing it in DA, made me wanna cry. I spent a lot more time thinking about what to say in DAO. I could switch off my brain for Shepard's responses. BUT since DA2 won't force you into one path (I hope), it's an improvement. But what infuriates me most is that the answers have a set slot again. Good/diplomatic is the upper answer and bad/aggressive is the bottom answer. So why need the icons at all?? Same as ME! This sucks. So. Much.
...

Same..unfortunately that kind kind of feedback has no merit to it,they don't care.They have made the point on several occasions but like you..I refuse to accept it.

One can only hope DA2 bombs ...hopefully then the Devs can see the error in their ways and a return of the DAO format with DA3..If it isn't completed abandoned for a new IP

If DA2 bombs there probably won't be a DA3.  If DA2 does well then the devs can say "See? SEE? We told you so."

It's a lose-lose situation.

[LadyBri]

 I actually like this new system.  I have never played ME1 or ME2, so this is my first time with the wheel, but I enjoyed the change.

There were plenty of times in Origins that I messed up my response in a conversation because I thought a certain reply had a specific intent only to find out I was wrong and the NPC misinterpreted my meaning.  I look forward to this game where my intent/tone becomes a part of my response because I feel it will give me more control in conversations to steer the dialogue down the path I am envisioning.  I don't think it's laziness to have such icons - in fact, I think it allows us more control and input to RP with greater effectiveness.

[Zigzaggy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Zigzaggy wrote...
Doesn't stop us asking the question though . If DG shared our sentiment of loving Origins..why divert away from it so drastically.They can claim it isn't dumbed down all day.but however short the demo it is a demonstration of 'dumbed down' we cannot avoid that with spin.

Their goals differ from ours. They are probably looking for the same sales jump from DA-DA2 as from ME-ME2 and reasoned that ME2 being more "arcadey" and simplified was the way to go. Especially now EA is at the helm.

Oh I don't disagree.

But trying to pacify such discontent with waffle isn't appreciated either.

People appreciate the truth and they should be upfront and just spit it out.Instead of trying to hoodwink us into making a purchase if the game is less complex,more linear,dumbed down to suit their target audience.Then they should just bloody say so .

[Adhin]

@FieryDove: Yeah that wasn't personality so much as your chosen 'view' on things. How you handle there personal quest. Each one has a quest 'chain' (thank god its a chain this time) that spans the course of the game. How you handle that is the major factor in if they're friends or rivals with you - and remember! Rivalry doesn't mean they hate you. It may even mean you've fundamentally changed there outlook on something...

And sorry if I came off harsh sounding. This topics gotten to me hehehe.

[Raraptor]

LadyBri wrote...

 I actually like this new system.  I have never played ME1 or ME2, so this is my first time with the wheel, but I enjoyed the change.

There were plenty of times in Origins that I messed up my response in a conversation because I thought a certain reply had a specific intent only to find out I was wrong and the NPC misinterpreted my meaning.  I look forward to this game where my intent/tone becomes a part of my response because I feel it will give me more control in conversations to steer the dialogue down the path I am envisioning.  I don't think it's laziness to have such icons - in fact, I think it allows us more control and input to RP with greater effectiveness.

Agreed.

[David Gaider]

Zigzaggy wrote...
Would say that a vast majority of DAO fans don't like the paraphrase wheel...don't see any topics in the archives of fans requesting it be implemented into the franchise.

That's quite an assumption to make.

The people that liked DAO best are going to number among the people who spend time on its forums. That shouldn't be particularly surprising. They're also going to be resistant to changes-- at best many of the fans would have liked iterations. "Keep everything the same but also give us new stuff". A tall order, especially if it's not the direction we want to do.

To take that and say "a vast majority of DAO fans don't like the paraphrase wheel" is to go too far, however. Just because you'll hear the most negative people on these forums doesn't mean they speak for the majority of DAO fans. Even the most casual poll on these forums, with only voluntary respondants, show that the majority of people -- on these forums, even -- don't agree with the negative sentiment. That doesn't mean that the majority of all fans like the changes, either, but it sure doesn't mean the opposite.

I can see how it's made development much simpler,less complex and from a players perspective 'dumbed down'  .We cannot avoid that unfortunately people experience 4-5-6 choices of response as more complex than 3

Err... no.

Origins had 6 choices max on the list. If we needed to have more, we had to break it out into a seperate hub, which we occasionally did. The vast majority of the time, however, you had three basic sorts of tones to reply with-- the exact three we have in DA2. Any others on the same list were investigate questions.

Then you had times when you actually made choices about what to do. Sometimes there we had to break investigates out onto a separate wheel if the total was more than 6, but generally speaking there was never more than 3 actual "action choices" in the list. All actions were written in one specific tone, a tone that we writers chose.

In DA2 you have up to 10 options possible on 2 seperate wheels, 5 of them investigate. The number is not less, it's simply a different layout.

If you really want to talk about how it's "less complex" and "dumbed down", you might not want to start from a point of ignorance. I really do get that not everyone likes the changes-- and some people are simply going to conflate all the changes together (ie. "I liked Origins so therefore everything that Origins did was good and anything that changes from that is clearly lesser") but taking that sentiment to imply "everyone who likes the changes is dumb and likes less complex things" is taking it too far.

Perhaps you don't want to actually convince anyone (or us devs) of anything. That's entirely possible. Just expressing your displeasure is perfectly valid -- and not getting the sequel I'd wanted would cause me some displeasure, as well. But if you do, making less generalizations and invalid assumptions would go a long way to helping it.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 février 2011 - 05:07 .

[Merced652]

LadyBri wrote...
 in fact, I think it allows us more control and input to RP with greater effectiveness.

RPing with other peoples very limited choice of words, and even more limited intent. Its far easier to RP with the fact that they misunderstood you. But your desire to metagame pretty much torpedoed that from the start, so i'm not sure why you'd even bother.

Modifié par Merced652, 24 février 2011 - 05:08 .

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

You may not like that the layout is different from Origins, but it's truly not as different as some people seem to want everyone to believe.

I was actually expecting it to be "not as different" based on the earlier dev comments, but must say that in practice --at least as far as the glimpse we get in the demo-- it feels quite different and somewhat more limited.

Maybe it's because i was making pretty liberal use of what would be equivalent of "neutral" option and this one isn't really present in DA2, and instead i'm given option to be a wisecracking jackass who generally fails to make anyone in Thedas as much as smirk at his/her antics

For example, encounter with Duncan in CE origin right from the start has:

Duncan: Good day. I understand congratulations are in order for your impending wedding.
1: You're not wanted here. This is a private ceremony.
2: Let's talk about your impending beating.
3: Thanks, but please go. I'd rather avoid any unpleasantness.
4: Do you have business here, human?

while it's similar, right from the start this deviates from the DA2 model, because rather than polite, snarky, aggressive (+ investigate) you have polite, aggressive and neutral. And that neutral is quite believable line to pick, given the situation. In DA2 however this option would seemingly be gone and if i didn't want the character to be snarky i'd only have option of kissing butt or seeking trouble. Neither being very appealing.

Part of it could be also, being able to read the choices exactly as they were i didn't have to choose based on the vague summary. In the DA2 demo i catch myself constantly second-guessing and stalling before i actually commit, and in the end just clicking the lines based on the tone icon because the paraphrases confuse me more about what the character is going to say, than help. For some unexplained reason this is quite more frustrating in DA2 than in ME, where the paraphrases didn't really give me that problem.

edit: on second thought, i suppose these three options in the example could be interpreted differently -- 1 as aggressive, 2 snarky and 3 polite. That would match the DA2 model (if i overlook that "snarky" is also pretty aggressive, something the icon wouldn't really warn me about) but then i suspect the paraphrase thing would bite me in the back as it happens in DA2 demo, and i'd wind up getting too influenced by the "aggressive" icon for the option 1 and as result hesitate to pick it.

Modifié par tmp7704, 24 février 2011 - 05:15 .

[Maconbar]

LadyBri wrote...

 I actually like this new system.  I have never played ME1 or ME2, so this is my first time with the wheel, but I enjoyed the change.

There were plenty of times in Origins that I messed up my response in a conversation because I thought a certain reply had a specific intent only to find out I was wrong and the NPC misinterpreted my meaning.  I look forward to this game where my intent/tone becomes a part of my response because I feel it will give me more control in conversations to steer the dialogue down the path I am envisioning.  I don't think it's laziness to have such icons - in fact, I think it allows us more control and input to RP with greater effectiveness.

Did you get Zevraned?

[Maelora]

Wow, BW really circling the wagons today, bringing out the big guns...

[Merced652]

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

You may not like that the layout is different from Origins, but it's truly not as different as some people seem to want everyone to believe.

I was actually expecting it to be "not as different" based on the earlier dev comments, but must say that in practice --at least as far as the glimpse we get in the demo-- it feels quite different and somewhat more limited.

Maybe it's because i was making pretty liberal use of what would be equivalent of "neutral" option and this one isn't really present in DA2, and instead i'm given option to be a wisecracking jackass who generally fails to make anyone in Thedas as much as smirk at his/her antics

For example, encounter with Duncan in CE origin right from the start has:

Duncan: Good day. I understand congratulations are in order for your impending wedding.
1: You're not wanted here. This is a private ceremony.
2: Let's talk about your impending beating.
3: Thanks, but please go. I'd rather avoid any unpleasantness.
4: Do you have business here, human?

while it's similar, right from the start this deviates from the DA2 model, because rather than polite, snarky, aggressive (+ investigate) you have polite, aggressive and neutral. And that neutral is quite believable line to pick, given the situation. In DA2 however this option would seemingly be gone and if i didn't want the character to be snarky i'd only have option of kissing butt or seeking trouble. Neither being very appealing.

Part of it could be also, being able to read the choices exactly as they were i didn't have to choose based on the vague summary. In the DA2 demo i catch myself constantly second-guessing and stalling before i actually commit, and in the end just clicking the lines based on the tone icon because the paraphrases confuse me more about what the character is going to say, than help. For some unexplained reason this is quite more frustrating in DA2 than in ME, where the paraphrases didn't really give me that problem.

Exactly.

[Naltair]

As stated before the wheel conversation system is the list of options just like in DA:O expect now instead of a spaced out protagonist who shows no emotion you have a voiced protagonist saying things in a way that to me enhances the role playing experience.

I liken it to a table top game, if I am running the game I speak aloud and add inflection, tone, and even accents to my characters. I don’t scribble a note and then hand it to people with no voice to convey what I say. So to me the voiced protagonist enhances the role-play and the game.

It does not seem like the system is like Mass Effect 2 where you need to be consistent with your choices to get the maximum Paragon or Renegade, it just offers a front end that is similar but fulfills the same objective as it did in DA:O. You make the choices and your companions react to them, or move the story along. It looks much cleaner then lines of text and makes for a more streamlined layout.

Streamlined does not mean “dumbed down”, it just means aesthetically pleasing and not cluttered. As an addition, voiced characters have always been the direction of the game, if that was not the case then why have all the NPCs in the game world have voices. Because it adds to the immersion, it adds to the story, and it makes the characters more believable. Thus the decision to make a voiced protagonist is a no brainer it only serves to better fit the character into the story.

I am sure many will hate this, but this is the direction of the industry is going. I am not saying there isn’t a placed for the silent protagonist but in a game as highly voiced as Dragon Age it just starts to stand out as a sore thumb. Personally my biggest gripe was that my character just stood there like a moron while the rest of the world emoted and spoke.

But maybe that is just me.

Modifié par Naltair, 24 février 2011 - 05:17 .

[LadyBri]

Maconbar wrote...

LadyBri wrote...

 I actually like this new system.  I have never played ME1 or ME2, so this is my first time with the wheel, but I enjoyed the change.

There were plenty of times in Origins that I messed up my response in a conversation because I thought a certain reply had a specific intent only to find out I was wrong and the NPC misinterpreted my meaning.  I look forward to this game where my intent/tone becomes a part of my response because I feel it will give me more control in conversations to steer the dialogue down the path I am envisioning.  I don't think it's laziness to have such icons - in fact, I think it allows us more control and input to RP with greater effectiveness.

Did you get Zevraned?

Lol, I so got Zevraned...and Leliana'd...and there were a few times Morrigan wanted to slap me when I was trying to be supportive but somehow said something she took as antagonistic;)

[Maconbar]

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

You may not like that the layout is different from Origins, but it's truly not as different as some people seem to want everyone to believe.

I was actually expecting it to be "not as different" based on the earlier dev comments, but must say that in practice --at least as far as the glimpse we get in the demo-- it feels quite different and somewhat more limited.

Maybe it's because i was making pretty liberal use of what would be equivalent of "neutral" option and this one isn't really present in DA2, and instead i'm given option to be a wisecracking jackass who generally fails to make anyone in Thedas as much as smirk at his/her antics

For example, encounter with Duncan in CE origin right from the start has:

Duncan: Good day. I understand congratulations are in order for your impending wedding.
1: You're not wanted here. This is a private ceremony.
2: Let's talk about your impending beating.
3: Thanks, but please go. I'd rather avoid any unpleasantness.
4: Do you have business here, human?

while it's similar, right from the start this deviates from the DA2 model, because rather than polite, snarky, aggressive (+ investigate) you have polite, aggressive and neutral. And that neutral is quite believable line to pick, given the situation. In DA2 however this option would seemingly be gone and if i didn't want the character to be snarky i'd only have option of kissing butt or seeking trouble. Neither being very appealing.

Except that DA:2 doesn't use the 3 tone icons for each dialogue. You won't always get polite, snarky, and aggresive. There is a diplomatic icon available for some convos.

[Count Viceroy]

Clonedzero wrote...

in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.

(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)

its just presented in a wheel this time.

QFT.

[Galad22]

David Gaider wrote...


That's quite an assumption to make.

The people that liked DAO best are going to number among the people who spend time on its forums. That shouldn't be particularly surprising. They're also going to be resistant to changes-- at best many of the fans would have liked iterations. "Keep everything the same but also give us new stuff". A tall order, especially if it's not the direction we want to do.

To take that and say "a vast majority of DAO fans don't like the paraphrase wheel" is to go too far, however. Just because you'll hear the most negative people on these forums doesn't mean they speak for the majority of DAO fans. Even the most casual poll on these forums, with only voluntary respondants, show that the majority of people -- on these forums, even -- don't agree with the negative sentiment. That doesn't mean that the majority of all fans like the changes, either, but it sure doesn't mean the opposite.

Then why did you change layout. I really doubt there were that many people asking for wheel here, since not everyone like it in mass effect either.

If it was essentially the same why couldn't you just stick with it.

For some like me it was better. Because this really does effect my roleplaying experience which DA2 is supposed to be about. And it affects it to a worse direction.

Wheel for me in ME was fine because it was there from the start and that series felt like it had different focus.
Now you are pushing that focus into DA series which really doesn't need any of that because DA could stand on its own two feets quite well already.

[Adhin]

tmp that's partially a good example but 'diplomatic, sarcastic, aggressive' aren't the only 3 intents allowed. That's just the over-arching category and personalities things tie into. There's neutral options for all 3, and could of easily been applied to that situation given. As for the 4th 'do you have business here human' could easily be a left investigate option (with out swapping to a new page).

[EclipticOlive54]

LadyBri wrote...

 I actually like this new system.  I have never played ME1 or ME2, so this is my first time with the wheel, but I enjoyed the change.

There were plenty of times in Origins that I messed up my response in a conversation because I thought a certain reply had a specific intent only to find out I was wrong and the NPC misinterpreted my meaning.  I look forward to this game where my intent/tone becomes a part of my response because I feel it will give me more control in conversations to steer the dialogue down the path I am envisioning.  I don't think it's laziness to have such icons - in fact, I think it allows us more control and input to RP with greater effectiveness.

Exactly how I felt! I agree with every point you made. I do love the wheel!

[Maconbar]

LadyBri wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

LadyBri wrote...

 I actually like this new system.  I have never played ME1 or ME2, so this is my first time with the wheel, but I enjoyed the change.

There were plenty of times in Origins that I messed up my response in a conversation because I thought a certain reply had a specific intent only to find out I was wrong and the NPC misinterpreted my meaning.  I look forward to this game where my intent/tone becomes a part of my response because I feel it will give me more control in conversations to steer the dialogue down the path I am envisioning.  I don't think it's laziness to have such icons - in fact, I think it allows us more control and input to RP with greater effectiveness.

Did you get Zevraned?

Lol, I so got Zevraned...and Leliana'd...and there were a few times Morrigan wanted to slap me when I was trying to be supportive but somehow said something she took as antagonistic;)

I actually got Alistaired accidently. I just thought that I was being nice and polite.

[tenshi_no_hone]

The only issue I have with the wheel is that I've played ME and ME2 so much that it makes me think about my dialogue in paragon/renegade terms or friendship/rivalry terms.



Even though the position on the wheel is supposed to indicate tone, I instinctively think of it as good/neutral/bad. It's a better system than list dialogue, just its use in ME games means this way of doing things will take some getting used to

[Adhin]

Almost every review pointed it out, plenty of people before it was released and after wished there was fully voiced PC. They basically changed it because, all of others whining and reviews aside - they felt it would better fit and immerse people into the game.

Modifié par Adhin, 24 février 2011 - 05:19 .

[FieryDove]

Adhin wrote...

@FieryDove: Yeah that wasn't personality so much as your chosen 'view' on things. How you handle there personal quest. Each one has a quest 'chain' (thank god its a chain this time) that spans the course of the game. How you handle that is the major factor in if they're friends or rivals with you - and remember! Rivalry doesn't mean they hate you. It may even mean you've fundamentally changed there outlook on something...
And sorry if I came off harsh sounding. This topics gotten to me hehehe.

Ah thank you! No worries on being harsh. It will be tense in these forums past release for several weeks I'm sure.

-David
I am one of those who loved origins to death...and still do. The only reason I have concerns on the wheel/paraphrasing is because of having experienced it in ME/ME2. I have no indication the developers on that team are even aware how people felt about it, both good or bad. They don't talk except to hype next game it seems. (Sorry if that seems harsh but Casey has made some outlandish claims in the past that just leave me going what???)

I do think the DA team is aware since you have added a few things, intent icons and such and am willing to see how it works out. Plus you folks talk to your fanbase. Thank you all for that.

Modifié par FieryDove, 24 février 2011 - 05:21 .