945 réponses à ce sujet

[arghhhjustletmein]

Hmm, I have mixed feelings over all of this, on the one hand it shows how terrible the issue of DRM has become when customers resort to having to research a games DRM themselves and when customers have such low confidence that they wait for some time after a games release in order to see for themselves the impact of said DRM.

I can only say that after the DRM fiasco with Mass Effect 1 I always wait and research the DRM issues for myself and yes, some might see it as being paranoid, but when you're one of the customers who has been impacted multiple times in the past thanks to DRM then you do start detesting anything related to it. I personally have had a system blue screen and corrupt the OS thanks to Starforce, I've had all kinds of issues getting more activations on games due to the fact I upgrade a lot and various DRM systems consider an upgrade a 'new' system, I've had issues with DRM systems being almost impossible to remove from my system, and I've even had company's refuse me activations for DRM protected DLC that I legitimately purchased.

The point is, not everyone is a tin foil hat wearing fruit basket. There is a reason why issues around DRM are so sensitive and it seems like not enough consideration has been given to the issue imho.

Now, I don't want to bash Bioware anymore than they are already getting, I can only say that I fully understand the fuss (even if it all turns out to be a missunderstanding). Let me put it this way, If I had installed DA2 on the understanding that it does NOT contain SecuROM, and then scanned my machine finding files with SecuROM like signatures and registry key entries in the SecuROM area, well I wouldn't be happy either. I find it disappointing that after the various experiences and bad PR that both EA and Bioware have gone through in the past related to DRM, that they don't seem to be able to handle this issue better.

I hope this serves as a lesson to take the issue more seriously next time, the fact we are being told that it looks like Bioware basically farmed out this work on a 'release control program' to the same people who make SecuROM, and then apparantly didn't do much research into what this code does on consumers machines, well it doesn't fill me with confidence. The fact it writes registry keys to a secuROM area alone should have been a red flag if anybody had even bothered to look at how this thing worked before unleashing it on customers.

The sad part is I think Bioware have actually tried to do the right thing here, I applaud the fact that they have moved away from SecuROM DRM and limited activations, but this has been handled very badly and call me a nutjob if you must, but I will wait for further information from those clever community people to hopefully confirm the true nature of what this 'Release Control Program' does, I mean, how can I trust Bioware when they seem ignorant of the way it works themselves ?

[Kurzan]

Is there any way around the SecuROM date check!? Why can't it just check the date on my system, why do you have to use a SecuROM site that doesn't work to get support for this?

[DJBare]

Merkar wrote...

A temporary DRM in order to safeguard distribution arrangements.

Just my opinion, but looking at the latest figures for piracy, this seems like a complete waste of money and time, you might be interested to know a cracked version of the exe was released on the 8th, yup the same day the game was released in the US.

PS, please don't ban me for using the P word, I'm just showing the DRM to be worthless.

Modifié par DJBare, 12 mars 2011 - 10:45 .

[philbo1965uk]

Godeshus wrote...

Oops, I meant to say uDoh posted what I was getting at. Philbo is foolish. I do not agree with him.

@Philbo: There is no DRM. Go hate somewhere else.

Please don't derail the discussion by spamming irelevant nonsense.

[Fernando Melo]

Godeshus wrote...

Basically
everything you've been saying since the information was published only
BEFORE the game is released. Take care of the problem before it even IS a
problem.

-g

 
Ok, we did provide what we thought was wanted and at the time the questions weren't there as they are now, but fair point on communicating more earlier. 

philbo1965uk wrote...

There is no assumption ..Bioware are using SecuRom DRM.

Your argument and interpretation of it's use... is irelevant to the fact.

Let me make sure I have this - your argument and interpretation is that there are some reg entries and benign files left behind from not thoroughly cleaning up after itself.  And therefore your conclusion is a completely different product must have been installed... even if there is no trace of that supposed product?  But that is not relevant or factual to the argument?

[Lux]

Kurzan wrote...

I just installed the game, but cannot actually play it because the SecuROM date check is telling me that it failed during the attempt. Marvellous. It then tells you to go to a website that does not actually work. Genious. I am so incredibly impressed by this.

Well, that's because the date check is in its infancy and we have to be patient nannies

Try the following:
- Temporarily disable your firewall.
- Temporarily disable UAC (User Account Control) on Vista, 7.
- Close/disable all programs running on system tray.

If all else fails, contact support.

[Kurzan]

I've registered my copy of the game as you can see through my little Dragon Age 2 symbol below my portrait. It's the 12th March 2011, the game was released in the UK yesterday. Why is there a SecuROM online release date check for the game at this point? Why as an honest consumer am I being forced to just sit here and not be able to play the game because there's an error in the date check. This is rediculous. Totally, totally rediculous. Even better, there's no EA phone support over the weekend.

Modifié par Kurzan, 12 mars 2011 - 10:50 .

[Lux]

Kurzan wrote...

Even better, there's no EA phone support over the weekend.

I have been able to contact support on weekends, and with fast response using their chat system.

[Fernando Melo]

Kurzan wrote...

Is there any way around the SecuROM date check!? Why can't it just check the date on my system, why do you have to use a SecuROM site that doesn't work to get support for this?

We've had reports where some players are unable to get to the sony servers - usually firewall related, and in one case network path.  But try the beta patch 1.01 we're currently testing, and see if that helps.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/300/index/6482838

arghhhjustletmein wrote...
<snip>
Now, I don't want to bash Bioware anymore than they are already getting, I can only say that I fully understand the fuss (even if it all turns out to be a missunderstanding). Let me put it this way, If I had installed DA2 on the understanding that it does NOT contain SecuROM, and then scanned my machine finding files with SecuROM like signatures and registry key entries in the SecuROM area, well I wouldn't be happy either. I find it disappointing that after the various experiences and bad PR that both EA and Bioware have gone through in the past related to DRM, that they don't seem to be able to handle this issue better.

I hope this serves as a lesson to take the issue more seriously next time, the fact we are being told that it looks like Bioware basically farmed out this work on a 'release control program' to the same people who make SecuROM, and then apparantly didn't do much research into what this code does on consumers machines, well it doesn't fill me with confidence. The fact it writes registry keys to a secuROM area alone should have been a red flag if anybody had even bothered to look at how this thing worked before unleashing it on customers.

The sad part is I think Bioware have actually tried to do the right thing here, I applaud the fact that they have moved away from SecuROM DRM and limited activations, but this has been handled very badly and call me a nutjob if you must, but I will wait for further information from those clever community people to hopefully confirm the true nature of what this 'Release Control Program' does, I mean, how can I trust Bioware when they seem ignorant of the way it works themselves ?

I'm sorry if the impression is that no review of this was done.  Quite the contrary.  There was a very deliberate choice made to not go with SecuROM for DRM but to still use the sony release control software.

As I've mentioned, yes it is unfortunate that it uses some of the same reg entries and I complete see the point of view of being alarmed by finding this.  And we definitely need to do a better job of it.  You have no argument from me on that.

That doesn't change the fact of what it is, and what it is not.

DJBare wrote...

Merkar wrote...

A temporary DRM in order to safeguard distribution arrangements.

Just my opinion, but looking at the latest figures for piracy, this seems like a complete waste of money and time, you might be interested to know a cracked version of the exe was released on the 8th, yup the same day the game was released in the US.

PS, please don't ban me for using the P word, I'm just showing the DRM to be worthless.

Different discussion. 

[burning_phoneix]

While I thank Fernando for his timely communication with the fans, I'm a little disappointed that something like this managed to slip through the cracks.

I was just wondering, why not use Steam for all disc versions of the game? Both Relic and the Creative Assembly use Steam as both a DRM AND Date check with great results. If you're afraid that consumers won't like being forced to use steam (as many do) then you could have the option of installing with a differentm, more benign, DRM such as Uniloc. I recall the Football Manager series uses this option to great effect by being the number one selling PC game in 2010 (and that's NOT counting digital steam sales!)

[MrBigCat]

I noticed that on the website for Securom, - www2.securom.com/Pre-Load-Pre-Order.85.0.html - under the Digital rights Management section of the Solutions page there seems to be the solution Bioware used for Dragon Age 2 - although I could be wrong. In fact, there is convienent pdf, called the SecuROM Release Control factsheet that can be found there, that seems to reinforce that this indeed what the game used.

Yet, despite this, if I understand it correctly, Bioware is claiming Securom was not used, even though, again, it apparently is listed as SecuRom Release Control on the Securom website.

Call me confused.

Modifié par MrBigCat, 12 mars 2011 - 11:12 .

[mki]

well gg then. ..

FACT - it creates reg entries called SECUROM
FACT - it's programmed by SONY
FACT - they are installed WITHOUT any warning or announcement
FACT - it wont uninstall itself completely
FACT - bioware stated they DIDN'T use 'securom'

while it may not be the securom-drm-cancer it is still called securom and is still made by sony so how is it 'not intentionally done that way'?

it absolutely is!

you guys knew that some people wouldn't have bought the game if securom was even mentioned. and that's exactly why you juggled some words around to state it "doesn't use securom".

DA2 may not use securom drm, but it does use SECUROM SOFTWARE. personally i wouldn't have bought the game if i knew that fact. bioware should have informed their customers correctly.

gg bioware, gg.
good luck selling your next game.

Modifié par mki, 12 mars 2011 - 11:15 .

[Kurzan]

Thank you, patch fixed the issue.

[Lux]

burning_phoneix wrote...

While I thank Fernando for his timely communication with the fans, I'm a little disappointed that something like this managed to slip through the cracks.

I was just wondering, why not use Steam for all disc versions of the game? Both Relic and the Creative Assembly use Steam as both a DRM AND Date check with great results. If you're afraid that consumers won't like being forced to use steam (as many do) then you could have the option of installing with a differentm, more benign, DRM such as Uniloc. I recall the Football Manager series uses this option to great effect by being the number one selling PC game in 2010 (and that's NOT counting digital steam sales!)

DA2 has its own fairly-benign DRM.

The recent discussion has to do with the release date check; a separate and temporary safeguard mechanism arranged by Sony, which failed to completely remove itself.

Modifié par Merkar, 12 mars 2011 - 11:18 .

[Kovnic]

I have pretty low Tech savy, so I wont get into the whole debate on this. I will say, if its a innocent program that happens to use similar files, and thats actually all it is...well meh. I'm cool with that, I dont care what name it uses as long as it does what they say it does, and nothing more.

Also, Fernando is being awesome. Of all the **** storms that have blown up on here recently, you seem to be running at this one head on AND keeping us all informed of it as you do it. /cheer.

[philbo1965uk]

It's a total contradiction of terms...you cannot have a benign DRM.

It's very nature is to control your use of a product over and beyond your initial purchase.

I fully appreciate and understand Biowares claims of a date check ...but even they are at a loss to explain or inform you exactly what remains on your machine.Other than it will no longer affect the use of DA2...that IMO is unacceptable.

[RiouHotaru]

philbo1965uk wrote...

It's a total contradiction of terms...you cannot have a benign DRM.

It's very nature is to control your use of a product over and beyond your initial purchase.

I fully appreciate and understand Biowares claims of a date check ...but even they are at a loss to explain or inform you exactly what remains on your machine.Other than it will no longer affect the use of DA2...that IMO is unacceptable.

Uhhhh, they DID explain what's left behind if you read earlier in the thread, it's a series of registry entries.  All of which are benign because NONE of them are executables.  Bioware did NOT lie to you.  The Date Release Check may have been made by the SecuROM team, but that does NOT make it SecuROM, and therefore Bioware did NOT lie in their opening post regarding this issue.

Now you're just being argumentative and stubborn.

[Lux]

philbo1965uk wrote...

It's a total contradiction of terms...you cannot have a benign DRM.

From teh Evil One™

Chris Priestly wrote...

Dragon Age 2 Physical & Digital PC/Mac DRM are as follows:

• No disc check, you do not need the disc in drive to play.
• No limit on the total number of PCs you can install the game on.
• There is a limit to the number of unique/different PCs that can play the game within a time window (if online) [5 PCs in 24hrs].
• After
  each new install there is a 1-time online check needed the next time
  you play, requiring a log in to your EA account to verify game
  ownership.  If you are a member of these forums, you already have an EA
  account – just use the same email/password.
• You can play offline
  thereafter - the game will NOT require any subsequent login checks.  If
  online, a game ownership check happens each time you play.

Compared to SecuROM DRM, that's the digital equivalent of a cute puppy.

[digitalDeimos]

Synthetic Frost wrote...

I personally hate all forms of DRM. And SecuROM is one of the WORST forms of DRM out there right now. It has bricked my PC more than once. But aside from that, I'm just sick of the pirates getting a better product than the paying customers.

SecuROM is impossible to get off a machine without formatting the drive, buggy as hell, and is just overall badly written software. Goodbye Bioware. You will not be missed.

By that statement, one would have to assume you will stop posting here as well?

[philbo1965uk]

Merkar wrote...

philbo1965uk wrote...

It's a total contradiction of terms...you cannot have a benign DRM.

From teh Evil One™

Chris Priestly wrote...

Dragon Age 2 Physical & Digital PC/Mac DRM are as follows:

• No disc check, you do not need the disc in drive to play.
• No limit on the total number of PCs you can install the game on.
• There is a limit to the number of unique/different PCs that can play the game within a time window (if online) [5 PCs in 24hrs].
• After
  each new install there is a 1-time online check needed the next time
  you play, requiring a log in to your EA account to verify game
  ownership.  If you are a member of these forums, you already have an EA
  account – just use the same email/password.
• You can play offline
  thereafter - the game will NOT require any subsequent login checks.  If
  online, a game ownership check happens each time you play.

Compared to SecuROM DRM, that's the digital equivalent of a cute puppy.

[*]Indeed it would appear to be.....until you digest the fact you HAVE to have an internet connection in order for you to be able to play your Singleplay standalone game.That One time check isn't one time when you consider it has to be varified repeatedley after a given interval determined by Bioware.That the check is repeatedly made should your machine be formatted.
[*]That you CANNOT play offline thereafter because of above checks are a requirement.
[*]You are required to register an EA account or the game will remain inaccessible and thus be governed by the terms and conditions of said account.
[*]That should you conduct yourself in a manner deemed inappropriate by EA on social networks any software associated with said account will be rendered void. (as you have seen over recent days such an act as been implemented against forum users.)
[*]So that could hardly be described as a cute puppy !

[Leonick91]

While I know SecuROM has had some terrible problems before I am just thinking one thing withevery one whing saying they would not have bought the game if they knew it was in there and what not, did you have any problems this time?
No? Maybe there isnt much to complain about this time? Considered SecuROM might not have these problems anymore? Specially not this form of it... Just saying...

philbo1965uk wrote...

[*]Indeed
it would appear to be.....until you digest the fact you HAVE to have an
internet connection in order for you to be able to play your Singleplay
standalone game.That One time check isn't one time when you consider it
has to be varified repeatedley after a given interval determined by
Bioware.That the check is repeatedly made should your machine be
formatted.
[*]That you CANNOT play offline thereafter because of above checks are a requirement.

I think you should go read his last point again after the initial activation you can play offline... If you are online it will perform a game onwership check but you can play it offline after you have installed and acivated it...

Modifié par Leonick91, 12 mars 2011 - 12:20 .

[Impar]

Greetings!

For those not aware, the hype/hysteria around 'Securom' is tied to Securom DRM, a separate product.

So, you are saying that it is a Digital Right Management (DRM) tool made by Securom but it is not Securom DRM?
After it has been said by Bioware staff that DA2 wouldnt have Securom DRM?
Fact: DA2 contains DRM made by Securom.

The release control software we use does none of this.  As
we've said before it simply does a check of the date against an online
server when you run the game.

Which means that the following times DA2 is installed the DRM will still try to check the date in the online server.
Until when will that Sony server be online?
What happens in 10 years time when the server is offline or the date authentication software isnt running on said server?
Game can not be installed\\played?

Modifié par Impar, 12 mars 2011 - 12:57 .

[tigrina]

Thanks Fernando for your explanation and discussion in this thread.

As for my opinion on this whole ordeal; having mentioned the connection to the Sony DADC servers beforehand would have given another stream of discussion going on before release, but at least we, as customers, could have decided for our own if that temporary fact (as it seems to be) is good enough to purchase the game or not.

As for myself, I'm willing to believe this is temporary and will check on left over files and registry keys. It seems that especially on Win 7 64 bits a lot of programs have this issue.*

* as I found out, the DA:O key stays in the registry after deinstallation, among a few other entries.

[EtherealN]

[*]

philbo1965uk wrote...
Indeed it would appear to be.....until you digest the fact you HAVE to have an internet connection in order for you to be able to play your Singleplay standalone game.That One time check isn't one time when you consider it has to be varified repeatedley after a given interval determined by Bioware.That the check is repeatedly made should your machine be formatted.

Wrong. I think you misunderstand how it works. It checks at first run - I'd assume it just does a simple hardwarecode polling and checks a d-base on the server. If there have been 5 or more codes in the last 24 hours associated to your license key, it rejects activation (and you'll end up having to wait a few hours).

If, after first-run activation, you are not connected to the internet, it doesn't poll.

And just to be clear: I'VE DONE EXACTLY THAT. My DA2 runs perfectly fine even without internet connections. This includes DLC. (I usually only have the gaming rig connected as and when needed, since I'm using cellular internet, and even though the connection itself is no problem over the cell it does get mighty hot when I forget to disconnect for a week. )

I don't want to sound snarky, but I think a lot of the bruhaha here is about things that are entirely benign but sufficiently technical in nature to be hard for a layman to understand. Sadly I don't know how to explain it better than the nice Bioware guy already has, but what he says makes perfect sense to me. Some code was reused - this is standard practice - and thus it gets identified in ways that reinforce the conspiracy theorists. The only way to avoid that would be to completely re-do parts that have nothing at all with the actual DRM to do - for example the bits relevant to telling the application "this is how you connect to a server". Doesn't matter if you are the devil's own DRM or just the VideoLAN media player checking for updates - you need such a bit of code in there, and if your company already has code for that function it's easy to end up re-using it even for a completely unrelated function. It's just how programming is done.

[EtherealN]

Actually, to give a slightly different spin at trying to explain the difference:

Linux people will be aware of the concept of dependencies. For them, the concept will be easy: both SecuROM DRM and the release date checker share a dependency. Since the SecuROM checkers and so on include the dependencies in the check, it will give false positive on this thing too.

For Windows users, it's a bit harder to give a close-to-home analogy, but think of it like DirectX. Game 1 uses DirectX. Game 2 uses DirectX. Utility looks for Game 1, sees DirectX, says Game 1 is installed - while in actual fact it's Game 2 that is installed.

That make sense?