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Friendly Fire?


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#151
AtreiyaN7

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FieryDove wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

[And he couldn't be equally as dangerous? At the time, I had that information about his grisly experiments and his failed attempt to summon and control demons to go by. One demon, while dangerous, might not be as dangerous as an insane demon-summoning blood mage with a tendency to experiment on his own people. *shrug* Of course, later on I found out he wasn't totally bonkers (also managed to get him to consider the fact that what he'd done was morally reprehensible), so I ended up killing Sophia - heh.


I always exiled him. It was conflicting because he seemed liked he wanted to help (remove bad from taint and thus help all wardens), but the way he went about it...his methods. He really was no better than whatever was possesing Sophia. imho


I might tend to do the nice/right thing, but even I can be pragmatic. Avernus might be on track to unlocking additional powers based on the Taint and/or freeing Wardens from their death sentence, so I let him continue with the experiments as his way of atonement, with the caveat that he was NOT to use people as test subjects. Definitely thought that what he'd done was pretty monstrous, but with my high coercion, etc. he acknowledged his mistakes (inasmuch as one could expect him to), and I opted to take the chance.

EDIT: And getting back on the friendly fire topic itself - I really do think that people should suffer the penalties of dropping a fireball right on top of themselves (unless they cleverly and almost instantaneously manage to cast force field with a few nanoseconds) - hehe.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 25 février 2011 - 10:45 .


#152
Amioran

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Cordyte wrote...
I hate to call you out, in fact I really hate internet squabbles for any reason. But neither Better Archery nor Better Melee appear on Dragon Age Nexus. Nor does the Better Combat mod, which was apparently a combination of Better Archery and Better Melee.  Judging by the forums on Nexus you pulled them yourself, also judging by what is actually said in the forums they weren't what I'd call well endorsed.

Also apparently the maker of those two mods was banned from Dragon Age Nexus.


I always say: if you don't know of what you are talking about then simply shut up.

A) They were the 4 and 5 most endorsed mods at the time (apart two nude mods and Advanced Tactics). Either Georg endorsed BA in his site at the time.
B) I cleary stated "at the time" so as to say they are not more existent. Does this change in anyway that I perfectly know how removing FF in DA works?
C) I pulled back them myself because somebody started to copy them.
D) I was banned just because I didn't shut up and did let go the thing. Strange case, however, shortly after the politics on copyright and copies of other mods on Nexus radically changed.

I don't know who gave you that informations or if it was you that made a little research and you thought you already understood everything, but in the first case I suggest you to change informers next time, and in the second  to dig the issues a little more before talking of things you obviously know little about.

Cordyte wrote...
Also please do not resort to ad hominem attacks, reasoned discussions are always better than calling "beep, wrong" and "thanks for playing".


I understand that for some people saying "you are wrong" it's worser than an insult, but fact is, if one is wrong one is wrong, and, in this case, he was wrong as I proved much too clearly.

Then if you are going to use latin next time at last know (again) how to use it. Ad hominem is used as a rethoric strategy, to mean an attack without confronting the argumentations exposed, a thing I've cleary done. So your use of the term is wrong (yet again). 

Cordyte wrote...
Everyone here is more than happy to listen to what you have to say, just please try and be civil here. There is no need for ad hominem attacks or any other sort of uncivil behaviour, we can talk about this without the constant quips. Present your arguments in a reasonable fashion and people will read and respond in kind.


I've presented them in a reasonable fashion and actually it was not ME that attacked personally, if you did read well. If you are going to preach a sermon at last do so to the right target or objectively to the issue at hand instead of trying to justify some personal motive (that you clearly have) with masked fraternity for the human gender.

Cordyte wrote...
Also sweetie, making the player overpowered and making the game easier than it's supposed to be is still "breaking the game". Balance works both ways, in favour of the player and in favour of the enemy. There are two sides, that is why it's called "balance". It's like a scale.


You did all the sprout about not utilizing "personal attacks" and here in the first sentence you call me "sweetie" without me either knowing you or caring about you. Good job on contradicting yourself and actually proving that what you have said till now have nothing really to do with the intention exposed. If you are going to use a mask be sure to do so intelligently or you just become a joker. I suggest you to read Nietzsche or Rilke on the issue.

As for balance, since as you said it works both ways you naturally have to consider both and not only one, isn't it? Seems to me that the one that want to unbalance the thing is not me. And for now the 3rd time removing FF has nothing to do in itself on making a game easier if the gameplay is made for the changed context. The problem of a mod that enable it indipendently is just this: it changes the context without adapting the gameplay. A thing DA2 doesn't do. In fact FF is tied to difficulty in the game.

Modifié par Amioran, 25 février 2011 - 10:57 .


#153
Echoes

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Just because you think you are, doesn't mean you are.Also I dont think sweetie constitutes a personal attack, maybe a tease.

All we have to go off of is your word that your mods were highly endorsed, nothing else. Unfortunately the internet has all thought us well that you cannot take things at face value. Everyone has an ego, and it is all too easy to falsify stories. So please don't take this the wrong way, but I do not believe you.  Also as far I've been able to find your mods had to do with making archery more fun, and melee more fun nothing to do with FF. So I don't know why you think making two unrelated mods suddenly makes you an expert on game balance?

I admit though I may be misunderstanding you, I don't mean to offend but your grammar sometimes makes it hard to understand your point. I'm trying my best but I think something is getting lost in translation. What is your native tongue? Maybe I speak it and we could discuss this more clearly.

Modifié par Cordyte, 25 février 2011 - 11:07 .


#154
Amioran

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Cordyte wrote...

All we have to go off of is your word that your mods were highly endorsed, nothing else. Unfortunately the internet has all thought us well that you cannot take things at face value. Everyone has an ego, and it is all too easy to falsify stories. So please don't take this the wrong way, but I do not believe you. 


Never wanted someone to believe my word for what it is. Then it's unnecessary. It's easily provable by yourself if what I say it is true, simply looking in the toolset. Look in a spell as Fireball and you will see that there's a variable coming from core.h that defines which targets are selected in the area. If you change that from "only enemies" to "all in the area" (don't remeber the right terms, it's a bit of time I don't use the toolset) you will enable FF. A very easy thing to do.

Cordyte wrote...
Also as far I've been able to find your mods had to do with making archery more fun, and melee more fun nothing to do with FF.


Better Combat changed also behaviour of some spells. And anwyay if you learn how to mod some things you cannot not know how it is done, because the variable is in an include file.

Cordyte wrote...
I admit though I may be misunderstanding you, I don't mean to offend but your grammar sometimes makes it hard to understand your point. I'm trying my best but I think something is getting lost in translation. What is your native tongue? Maybe I speak it and we could discuss this more clearly.


I'm italian. As for understanding intentions, then, sadly it's one of the drawbacks of the internet because you don't have expressions to backup the content. Emoticons can arrive only to a point. Then to this if you add the language padronance and you can have a much more diabolical mix than in reality (not that I'm not diabolical, but maybe a little less ;-)).

Modifié par Amioran, 25 février 2011 - 11:18 .


#155
soteria

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Cordyte wrote...

Just because you think you are, doesn't mean you are.Also I dont think sweetie constitutes a personal attack, maybe a tease.


It's patronizing/condescending and extremely annoying. It's far more irritating than insults like "idiot" or "retard," and as much as I dislike Amioran and his posts, he's right--it looks hypocritical to bash someone for personal attacks when you're going to do them yourself.

#156
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The only complaint I have about the game so far. I'm sure if there is MOD support that it will be fixed.

#157
Amioran

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soteria wrote...
...and as much as I dislike Amioran and his posts...


Thanks, you made my day. I prefer to be hated, in fact. It enables that sort of diffidence that doesn't let you act without being attentive to what the other says, but at the same time enough confidence as to not be extraneous to him/her as to be indifferent. All in all, the perfect mix ;-)

Modifié par Amioran, 25 février 2011 - 11:19 .


#158
Jhime

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Honestly, in DAO, how many of you used Inferno, blizzard or tempest? They were almost impossible to cast without hitting friends as well as foes. I'm playing Awakening now with a new char and skipping them. And even cone of cold had to be taken off the tactics cause it would do as much harm as good. Granted, the AI aiming (on stationary enemies) does seem a bit better in DA2 demo...



But, a switch could be nice, I give you that.

#159
Jhime

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Ofc, the main reason you hit friends were that they carelessly ran in to the AoE, with the spell in full effect...

#160
FieryDove

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Amioran wrote...

soteria wrote...
...and as much as I dislike Amioran and his posts...


Thanks, you made my day. I prefer to be hated, in fact. It enables that sort of diffidence that doesn't let you act without being attentive to what the other says, but at the same time enough confidence as to not be extraneous to him/her as to be indifferent. All in all, the perfect mix ;-)


No fighting please. Peace! Let there be peace!

I enjoyed your mods. For whatever its worth...

#161
Sylvius the Mad

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andakmar wrote...

No one seems to be complaining that archers can't hit their allies.

I complained about that quite a bit when DAO came out, actually.

#162
Crunchyinmilk

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AtreiyaN7 wrote...
You didn't have the confrontation with Sophia? I engaged Avernus in dialogue, and eventually I think he said we should confront her or something to that effect. Then we went to see her together. It ultimately ended up being a rather unplesant fight due to the tight quarters and Avernus "helping" me with his fireball spell.


But thanks to the magic of friendly fire you could also freeze him solid, paralyse him, force field him, etc etc.  Your point is an argument against terrible AI, not friendly fire.  Some people don't mind dealing with the difficulties of friendly fire.  It seems from this thread that some actually crave it as topping on their preferred difficulty setting.

If the only difference between 'Nightmare' and 'Hard' is friendly fire, then statements like 'just play it on Nightmare' would hold weight.   Is everyone towing this line so sure that's the only difference between the two difficulties?

'Stupid people might accidentally turn it on', is no argument against a toggle, if they're that stupid they might accidentally play it on Nightmare too, since that's to be an option from the beginning.

I'm honestly a bit surprised at the passionate arguments against the optional inclusion of friendly fire.  What do you gain by arguing against it?  If its inclusion has no impact on your experience of the game (you choose not to use it), why does letting others try their luck with it offend so?

#163
AtreiyaN7

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Crunchyinmilk wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
You didn't have the confrontation with Sophia? I engaged Avernus in dialogue, and eventually I think he said we should confront her or something to that effect. Then we went to see her together. It ultimately ended up being a rather unplesant fight due to the tight quarters and Avernus "helping" me with his fireball spell.


But thanks to the magic of friendly fire you could also freeze him solid, paralyse him, force field him, etc etc.  Your point is an argument against terrible AI, not friendly fire.  Some people don't mind dealing with the difficulties of friendly fire.  It seems from this thread that some actually crave it as topping on their preferred difficulty setting.

If the only difference between 'Nightmare' and 'Hard' is friendly fire, then statements like 'just play it on Nightmare' would hold weight.   Is everyone towing this line so sure that's the only difference between the two difficulties?

'Stupid people might accidentally turn it on', is no argument against a toggle, if they're that stupid they might accidentally play it on Nightmare too, since that's to be an option from the beginning.

I'm honestly a bit surprised at the passionate arguments against the optional inclusion of friendly fire.  What do you gain by arguing against it?  If its inclusion has no impact on your experience of the game (you choose not to use it), why does letting others try their luck with it offend so?


Well, you could if you had those abilities at the time. I went there fairly early on and my mage(s) weren't really spec'ed for force field OR paralysis, as I tend to go heavily elemental. You have a point about CoC though - I think I may have had it when I went there.

However, you're wrong about me if you're including me in the category of people arguing against friendly fire, because I've never argued against including friendly fire in the game. I've just argued that the game wasn't dumbed down since it was present on Nightmare (and that one should avoid the DD description, as it's kind of lazy). I you'd read my posts more carefully, you'd notice that I've actually said a friendly-fire toggle would be nice. :P

I even expressed my personal view that you should suffer consequences for your actions if you want to try dropping a fireball on yourself. Although, yes, I don't like unpredictable, uncontrollable allies in situations where I don't have options to trap them/control them. That is, indeed, an AI issue - one that leads to friendly-fire situatins if you can't CC your ally (or don't want to because you have adds to deal with).

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 26 février 2011 - 12:19 .


#164
Mordaedil

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Amioran wrote...

I always say: if you don't know of what you are talking about then simply shut up.

By all means, take your own advice, dude. Meanwhile, the rest of us will carry on a discussion about how it works instead of trying to act like an elitist know-it-all.

Amioran wrote...

A) They were the 4 and 5 most endorsed mods at the time (apart two nude mods and Advanced Tactics). Either Georg endorsed BA in his site at the time.
B) I cleary stated "at the time" so as to say they are not more existent. Does this change in anyway that I perfectly know how removing FF in DA works?
C) I pulled back them myself because somebody started to copy them.
D) I was banned just because I didn't shut up and did let go the thing. Strange case, however, shortly after the politics on copyright and copies of other mods on Nexus radically changed.


So, a, you basically were competing against really crappy first release mods and hold that as a merit, just because, you know how the FF in DA:O works, but not necessarily the FF in DA2, you act like a big baby and delete everything when someone starts to use your stuff online that you made for free for others to use and you got banned because you threw a tantrum over free ****.

Radical! Also, inflated sense of self, thinking you caused a change in the politics on copyright on the Nexus.

Amioran wrote...

I don't know who gave you that informations or if it was you that made a little research and you thought you already understood everything, but in the first case I suggest you to change informers next time, and in the second  to dig the issues a little more before talking of things you obviously know little about.

Grow the **** up and explain the situation without acting like a baby.

Amioran wrote...

I understand that for some people saying "you are wrong" it's worser than an insult, but fact is, if one is wrong one is wrong, and, in this case, he was wrong as I proved much too clearly.

Then if you are going to use latin next time at last know (again) how to use it. Ad hominem is used as a rethoric strategy, to mean an attack without confronting the argumentations exposed, a thing I've cleary done. So your use of the term is wrong (yet again).

Yet you never countered my previous argument that you don't know JACK **** about DA2's toolset or script system, since it has not been published yet, which is what this topic is about, not DA:O's scripting and toolset.

No, it really isn't, since you first confront the argument and then throw in an ad hominem with an added strawman. You assume the entire argument was about Dragon Age: Origins when we're talking about Dragon Age 2, and the methods for how to approach the problem has been reported in the past to be DIFFERENT from eachother.

Amioran wrote...

I've presented them in a reasonable fashion and actually it was not ME that attacked personally, if you did read well. If you are going to preach a sermon at last do so to the right target or objectively to the issue at hand instead of trying to justify some personal motive (that you clearly have) with masked fraternity for the human gender.

I would like to point out that you were the one who started with the whole "a serious modder" business, which is technically an attack on every modder on these boards that you don't care about.

Amioran wrote...

As for balance, since as you said it works both ways you naturally have to consider both and not only one, isn't it? Seems to me that the one that want to unbalance the thing is not me. And for now the 3rd time removing FF has nothing to do in itself on making a game easier if the gameplay is made for the changed context. The problem of a mod that enable it indipendently is just this: it changes the context without adapting the gameplay. A thing DA2 doesn't do. In fact FF is tied to difficulty in the game.

I don't think you understand what people are arguing about at all anymore. But when your head is so far up your own arse, I kinda expect it to be rather difficult.

Amioran wrote...

Never wanted someone to believe my word
for what it is. Then it's unnecessary. It's easily provable by yourself
if what I say it is true, simply looking in the toolset. Look in a spell
as Fireball and you will see that there's a variable coming from core.h
that defines which targets are selected in the area. If you change that
from "only enemies" to "all in the area" (don't remeber the right
terms, it's a bit of time I don't use the toolset) you will enable FF. A
very easy thing to do.

Are you kidding me? That's exactly
what you are asking us to do. You're asking us to believe you that DA2
will have a similar scripting structure to DA:O when a developer has, in
the past, stated that it does NOT.

Also that you totally want us
to take your word for how much of a serious modder you are and using
these big snooty words and references make you look like such an
informed and capable individual.

Amioran wrote...

Better
Combat changed also behaviour of some spells. And anwyay if you learn
how to mod some things you cannot not know how it is done, because the
variable is in an include file.

In DA:O, yes. Some of us have been around for longer than that.

Amioran wrote...

I'm italian.

Oh,
excuse me, you're of an ethnicity known for loosing their temper and
acting all big-shot. Excuse me while I just let you toot your own horn
for acting according to stereotypes, worsening all impressions of
italians everywhere else, while I drink this beer and watch some
football.

Yeah, yeah, that totally excuses everything you've said.

Amioran wrote...



Thanks,
you made my day. I prefer to be hated, in fact. It enables that sort of
diffidence that doesn't let you act without being attentive to what the
other says, but at the same time enough confidence as to not be
extraneous to him/her as to be indifferent. All in all, the perfect mix
;-)


Oh, haha. Haha. Haha, guys, haha. Check out this joker,
he's acting like he enjoys this! Enjoy being hated, yet when confronted
about an argument, he doesn't slow down to rise to an argument and
defend himself like he had anything at stake! I mean, he totally doesn't
care about what you think of him, he'd rather you hate him, by acting
like an immature person who can't handle being wrong about anything.

But
seriously, this is your angle? You *prefer being hated*? You think you
are this way? If you were, you wouldn't have been so easy to argue with
like I did just earlier. I've met better people at this than you. You
just like to grab that last saving grace, huh? Good on ya!

#165
soteria

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And tomorrow, we'll kick it up another notch! Bam!

#166
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andakmar wrote...

No one seems to be complaining that archers can't hit their allies.




Although I haven't seen it specifically confirmed, there's no reason to think that AoE damage done by a rogue (like Bursting Arrow or Storm of Arrows) won't be treated just the same as AoE damage done by a mage.

#167
Echoes

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I don't understand why people argue so zealously against FF being an OPTION. It's not like us pro FF people are asking for FF to be default on for all difficulties. Having the option to turn it on or off hurts absolutely no one. Since I imagine the default difficulties would stay the same. No FF for easy, medium and hard and FF for nightmare by default, but with the OPTION to turn it on or off at your leisure and as the case may be.



With the amount of drama that sprung forth from this topic you'd think we we're discussing gun control or something.



Regards



Cordyte

#168
Crunchyinmilk

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distinguetraces wrote...
Although I haven't seen it specifically confirmed, there's no reason to think that AoE damage done by a rogue (like Bursting Arrow or Storm of Arrows) won't be treated just the same as AoE damage done by a mage.


I'm more intrigued to see if moves like whirlwind or scythe or tremor etc, effect friendlies.  Warriors have a lot of crowd control options in DA2 (as do all classes now).

#169
HolyAvenger

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Yes they do, but they hit as glancing blows (1/10th damage to allies).

#170
wowpwnslol

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Jhime wrote...

Honestly, in DAO, how many of you used Inferno, blizzard or tempest? They were almost impossible to cast without hitting friends as well as foes. I'm playing Awakening now with a new char and skipping them. And even cone of cold had to be taken off the tactics cause it would do as much harm as good. Granted, the AI aiming (on stationary enemies) does seem a bit better in DA2 demo...

But, a switch could be nice, I give you that.


Inferno wasn't great, but combination of tempest and blizzard were utterly devastating, especially in dungeons will rooms full of enemies. Consider those spells could be cast without needed line of sight. A common (and cheap) tactic was to drop tempest+blizzard into a room and block the doorway with force fielded tank. You could basically clear everything out like that.

#171
wowpwnslol

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Ares_mito wrote...

Friendly fire is one of the most hated and most amusing thing in strategy mode, it gives a taste of reality.


After playing the demo, I truly believe AOE in DA2 was adjusted with FF in mind... it's just too strong otherwise. Beautiful thing about FF is that the more overpowered your AOE is, the harder it will hit you.

#172
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HolyAvenger wrote [about warrior abilities like Scythe]:

 they hit as glancing blows (1/10th damage to allies).


Are you sure? I know that the basic warrior auto attack doe s"glancing blow" damage -- has the same been confirmed for activated abilities?

#173
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I would have preferred some incremental FF. Say 20% at normal, 50% at hard and 100% on Nightmare. But hey, we work with what we're given. It's, hopefully, an error to judge the combat difficulty based on the demo. As an old school D&D player I'm used to being careful with spells and AoE effects. I caught myself positioning the targeting reticule several times even though I knew there was no FF. It's a good habit so I think I'll keep it regardless of how FF is implemented in the game.

#174
Sylvius the Mad

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Jhime wrote...

Honestly, in DAO, how many of you used Inferno, blizzard or tempest? They were almost impossible to cast without hitting friends as well as foes.

No they weren't.  All you had to do was keep control of your party members so they wouldn't run into the area of effect.

Inferno might have been my first mage's favourite spell.

And even cone of cold had to be taken off the tactics cause it would do as much harm as good.

That's a tactics problem, not an AoE problem.  Regardless, I tended to micromanage everything other than buffs, so it didn't matter.

#175
HolyAvenger

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distinguetraces wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote [about warrior abilities like Scythe]:

 they hit as glancing blows (1/10th damage to allies).


Are you sure? I know that the basic warrior auto attack doe s"glancing blow" damage -- has the same been confirmed for activated abilities?


I think one of the devs mentioned that friendly fire damage from warrior AoE attacks did 1/10th damage to companions yes.