132 réponses à ce sujet

[ryoldschool]

wizardryforever wrote...

ezrafetch wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

As for concussive shot, I find it to be an underappreciated power (Soldier exclusive too).  If you don't make cheesy bonus power choices, CS is your go-to power for crowd control on a Soldier.  It's designed to give you a break when someone is breathing down your neck, like krogan or geth hunters.  It's not designed for anything more than that really, and compared to class powers, it isn't much to write about.  People seem to like spamming adrenaline rush (as though it's necessary to do so, hmph) and anything that interferes with that ruins the easy mode that adrenaline rush provides.  That's all there is to it really.

Well...it is necessary to spam Adrenaline Rush. The fact of the matter is that the Soldier is a DPS-oriented class. It's not meant to even have "sufficient" crowd control capabilities. If you're going to include one skill for crowd control, Concussive Shot is most certainly not the answer. The cooldown is far too long and Slam/Neural Shock can disable just as well with half the cooldown. Casting a Concussive Shot generates a 6s cooldown, which equates to one Adrenaline Rush cycle (duration + cooldown) which therefore equals a significant chunk of DPS lost. At least Slam/Neural Shock have only a 3s cooldown, which is only half of an Adrenaline Rush cycle, so you lose much less DPS.

I'm the kind of guy that prefers to bring crowd control squadmates, though, because it makes little sense for me to be interrupting my juicy Adrenaline Rush cycles for something as petty as crowd control. With a Soldier, a dead enemy is a crowd-controlled enemy. So there's that.

Yeah, that's kinda why I said "cheesy bonus power choices."  Slam on a Soldier?  How does that make sense?  Neural Shock isn't much better, and anything that does make sense doesn't crowd control the same way that concussive shot does.  Furthermore, people act like the only way to play a soldier is to spam AR.  Now maybe it's just me, but I find the game easy enough, without having that magical "I win" button.  The bullet time actually interferes with my targeting, because I'm used to people moving faster, and I target accordingly.  When they slowdown, I end up overshooting because they aren't moving as fast.  It's because of this that I frequently don't use AR when I decide to play Soldier (on Insanity even), and just take advantage of the guns and the ammo powers.  So the whole "it interferes with AR" argument is one of subjectivity, which was my whole point to begin with, since it is perfectly possible (and enjoyable) to play Soldier while rarely using AR.

I think people need to realize that there are more ways (and possibly more fun) to play a given class than spamming their class power.  Soldiers are not all about AR anymore than Vanguards are not all about Charge.  If they were, Bioware wouldn't have bothered to give them other powers.

Cheesy bonus power???  What do you consider acceptable bonus powers to choose on a soldier?

AP ammo, Warp Ammo, Flashbang?

[Sparrow44]

The problem is the way they handled the power selection for the combat classes. Infiltrators and Vanguards got 2 ammo powers and Soldier got 3, now IMO ammo powers are a bit of a lousy excuse for 'combat' powers as they're passive and the damage bonus is negligible the more upgrades you get.

However VG's and IT's still get 2 tech or biotic powers and there passive talent also contributes to cooldown reduction and this ain't the case with Soldier. Besides their 3 ammo powers and AR they have CS and to be honest it sticks out like a sore thumb 'cause it has no benefits from any CD reduction, it's damage is terrible and by the time the guy stands up from it you're still waiting 4-5 seconds for the CD. Point being if Concussive was actually Carnage from ME1 then we wouldn't have anything to complain about.

[Bozorgmehr]

wizardryforever wrote...


Yeah, that's kinda why I said "cheesy bonus power choices."  Slam on a Soldier?  How does that make sense?  Neural Shock isn't much better, and anything that does make sense doesn't crowd control the same way that concussive shot does.  Furthermore, people act like the only way to play a soldier is to spam AR.  Now maybe it's just me, but I find the game easy enough, without having that magical "I win" button.  The bullet time actually interferes with my targeting, because I'm used to people moving faster, and I target accordingly.  When they slowdown, I end up overshooting because they aren't moving as fast.  It's because of this that I frequently don't use AR when I decide to play Soldier (on Insanity even), and just take advantage of the guns and the ammo powers.  So the whole "it interferes with AR" argument is one of subjectivity, which was my whole point to begin with, since it is perfectly possible (and enjoyable) to play Soldier while rarely using AR.

I think people need to realize that there are more ways (and possibly more fun) to play a given class than spamming their class power.  Soldiers are not all about AR anymore than Vanguards are not all about Charge.  If they were, Bioware wouldn't have bothered to give them other powers.

Why do you play the Soldier class if you're not (or hardly) using their unique power? The only reason to play Soldier is ARush and the Revenant IMHO. All the other weapons and ammo types are available to other classes too and they've got other powers to boot, maybe some you do like using.

BTW Bioware made ammo "powers" and added CS only to fill the remaining slots, if not they did a very poor job. Vanguards idem; Cryo Ammo WTF? Shockwave looks like an obstacle to block fast access to Pull to me. All those powers were added randomly (and for balance between classes though there's little balance in the end considering some powers). I would have preferred to give that choice to the player IMHO. Pull and Throw would give the Vanguard a powerful biotic combo, both powers are on a fast cooldown so a Charge is not far away and Throwing someone against the wall at close range feels pretty Vanguardish - hiding behind cover and casting Shockwave isn't.

[jwalker]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

[..]

Why do you play the Soldier class if you're not (or hardly) using their unique power? The only reason to play Soldier is ARush and the Revenant IMHO. All the other weapons and ammo types are available to other classes too and they've got other powers to boot, maybe some you do like using.

BTW Bioware made ammo "powers" and added CS only to fill the remaining slots, if not they did a very poor job. Vanguards idem; Cryo Ammo WTF? Shockwave looks like an obstacle to block fast access to Pull to me. All those powers were added randomly (and for balance between classes though there's little balance in the end considering some powers). I would have preferred to give that choice to the player IMHO. Pull and Throw would give the Vanguard a powerful biotic combo, both powers are on a fast cooldown so a Charge is not far away and Throwing someone against the wall at close range feels pretty Vanguardish - hiding behind cover and casting Shockwave isn't.

You don't like Cryo Ammo ?
I agree on Pull + Throw. That could be nice finisher, specially on Insanity. I don't like charging defenseless targets.

[Bozorgmehr]

I do like Cryo Ammo, but not for Vanguards. I think it's a bit pointless to give a shotgun in the face class a CC ammo power. There are few enemies who can survive a point blank shotgun blast which makes Cyro Ammo's effect pretty redundant. It's also not very biotic power friendly. It's nice to give to the squad, but investing 10 points into something Shep him/herself won't use doesn't seem right.

I do love Cryo Ammo with the Infiltrator class though.

[jasonsantanna]

I just think ppl short change themselves when they don't use all the abilities/powers given to them, why would the programmers give them to you , if you were only give just one power your passive power a lot of ppl would cry foul , all I get is one power , its kind of senseless to want every power to operate perfect with a 2.5 - 3sc cooldown it would be to easy there has to be a balance to what ever class I play I try to use all the abilities at hand of course your going to use the passive the most , but why have others available and not learn how to use them, I was the same I never use cryo ammo I felt what's the point until I evolved it for my squad it works great I especially like it for my Vanguard to have my squad freeze a foe then slam into targets its cool .believe me everyone knows that shockwave and CS has shortcomings but they are in the game to be use for some purpose , some just doesn't understand how or to use them.
And as far as choosing between a ferrari or fiat , if you have the funds of course the ferrari , but each still has a purpose , one for speed , one has better gas mileage , one is more affordable depending on your cash flow . Etc. But in the end they both serve a purpose or else they both wouldn't be produced

Modifié par jasonsantanna, 01 mars 2011 - 08:42 .

[Bozorgmehr]

jasonsantanna wrote...

I just think ppl short change themselves when they don't use all the abilities/powers given to them, why would the programmers give them to you , if you were only give just one power your passive power a lot of ppl would cry foul.

I reckon you like the Soldier class best - they only have one power they can use yet it's among the most played classes around (for obvious reasons). I also think it's a bit naive to suggest the devs are divine or something, designing perfect systems and whenever anyone dares to question their decisions they're supposedly ignorant when it comes to using certain features properly. It's poor design, not poor gameplay.

And as far as choosing between a ferrari or fiat , if you have the funds of course the ferrari , but each still has a purpose , one for speed , one has better gas mileage , one is more affordable depending on your cash flow . Etc. But in the end they both serve a purpose or else they both wouldn't be produced

Are you suggesting you would chose the fiat when you're also offered a ferrari because it's more fuel efficient and less likely to get stolen?

Soldiers have the choice between an all powerful, I win - everything dies - power and ... Concussive Shot. Not a real choice IMHO.

[jasonsantanna]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

jasonsantanna wrote...

I just think ppl short change themselves when they don't use all the abilities/powers given to them, why would the programmers give them to you , if you were only give just one power your passive power a lot of ppl would cry foul.

I reckon you like the Soldier class best - they only have one power they can use yet it's among the most played classes around (for obvious reasons). I also think it's a bit naive to suggest the devs are divine or something, designing perfect systems and whenever anyone dares to question their decisions they're supposedly ignorant when it comes to using certain features properly. It's poor design, not poor gameplay.

And as far as choosing between a ferrari or fiat , if you have the funds of course the ferrari , but each still has a purpose , one for speed , one has better gas mileage , one is more affordable depending on your cash flow . Etc. But in the end they both serve a purpose or else they both wouldn't be produced

Are you suggesting you would chose the fiat when you're also offered a ferrari because it's more fuel efficient and less likely to get stolen?

Soldiers have the choice between an all powerful, I win - everything dies - power and ... Concussive Shot. Not a real choice IMHO.

Bozoorgmehr your alright with me , I like that you stand up for your convictions , I guess we can argue points all day , I do understand your point why use the inferior power when you can just use the superior I guess for me its about finding a win in something that is considered a lost , I don't like to give up , so I figure I will make it work , because maybe 85 % or more feel the way you do , I don't mind being the underdog , I find that I can make CS work for my style of play , and yes you are right soldier is my fav nxt to Inf. & Van , and just for the record if some one was giving me the ferriari , hell yes I would take it but not keep it , its not my style but I would sell it for a Slam n SUV that's more me m
But you have to admit both cars serve a purpose for someone. Lol

[Rekkampum]

jasonsantanna wrote...

I had ME2 since it dropped for the 360 and in that time all I hear is how people sleep (hate) on Concussive shot , its not a bad power and in the use of squad mates its very powerful .
I usually play as a soldier and put 1pt in it, which works good , and on 1 occasion have evolved it , I know people are going to say it has a 6sc cooldown but it has its uses , husk insta-kill , taking down barriers on eclipse vanguards and knocking down that mook that's a little to close while you were shooting something else, but recently I have started a Infiltrator run and while doing Thane's RM I wanted to do it as a bro fest(lol) so I took Garrus and Grunt and we mopped the floor with them to using Concussive shot and I don't know if its me but it seems that the power is based on the strength of the squad mate .
What I mean is it seems like Grunts CS was stronger than Garrus and I both had 2pts in both , often times it seems as if Zaeed's has a stronger CS than Sheps at the same level, so I was thinking does it go
Grunt's CS -strongest
Zaeed's CS - stronger
Garuss's CS -strong
Shep's CS - strong
Does anyone know?

I don't know about others, but I love CS. For every character able to learn it, I evolve that ability. Especially for Shepard. It's a lifesaver.

[jasonsantanna]

Rekkampum wrote...

jasonsantanna wrote...

I had ME2 since it dropped for the 360 and in that time all I hear is how people sleep (hate) on Concussive shot , its not a bad power and in the use of squad mates its very powerful .
I usually play as a soldier and put 1pt in it, which works good , and on 1 occasion have evolved it , I know people are going to say it has a 6sc cooldown but it has its uses , husk insta-kill , taking down barriers on eclipse vanguards and knocking down that mook that's a little to close while you were shooting something else, but recently I have started a Infiltrator run and while doing Thane's RM I wanted to do it as a bro fest(lol) so I took Garrus and Grunt and we mopped the floor with them to using Concussive shot and I don't know if its me but it seems that the power is based on the strength of the squad mate .
What I mean is it seems like Grunts CS was stronger than Garrus and I both had 2pts in both , often times it seems as if Zaeed's has a stronger CS than Sheps at the same level, so I was thinking does it go
Grunt's CS -strongest
Zaeed's CS - stronger
Garuss's CS -strong
Shep's CS - strong
Does anyone know?

I don't know about others, but I love CS. For every character able to learn it, I evolve that ability. Especially for Shepard. It's a lifesaver.

Thanks , its good to see some ppl , see its worth

[termokanden]

Don't get me wrong, it's not a big issue at all. And I don't think people are saying it's not useful. It is. If I'm in trouble and a squadmate has CS, I don't hesitate to use it.

But you asked and here it is: Concussive Shot IS the weakest CC ability in the game, and unfortunately for it it shares the same cooldown as one of the most powerful (if not the most powerful) abilities in the game.

We're always hoping that abilities will be more balanced in the next game (well some of us are at least).

Anyone remember Storm Dragon by the way? Now THAT was unbalanced

[Roxlimn]

I find Concussive Shot better than Evolving Cryo Ammo (or Disruptor Ammo), particularly for missions where you take along a squaddie with a better ammo power, or when you respec for particular missions. ARush is a powerful thing, but it doesn't do everything. For instances where Health enemies are near ledges, CC functions like Throw - insta-kill. Of course it has longer cooldown, but using ARush for the same would involve using cooldown anyway, and you have to aim.

That said, I use CC mostly for variety. Using ARush all the time gets really boring.

[jasonsantanna]

termokanden wrote...

Don't get me wrong, it's not a big issue at all. And I don't think people are saying it's not useful. It is. If I'm in trouble and a squadmate has CS, I don't hesitate to use it.

But you asked and here it is: Concussive Shot IS the weakest CC ability in the game, and unfortunately for it it shares the same cooldown as one of the most powerful (if not the most powerful) abilities in the game.

We're always hoping that abilities will be more balanced in the next game (well some of us are at least).

Anyone remember Storm Dragon by the way? Now THAT was unbalanced

I would say thats fair to say , it may be the weakest CC power , but to not use it just seems to me like your short changing yourself from an experience , what I mean is what if the AR was dropped and soldier was stuck with Fortification in its place I really think ppl would use CS more often, IMHO.
Storm Dragon from jade empire use to love that power lol, brings back memories

[jasonsantanna]

Roxlimn wrote...

I find Concussive Shot better than Evolving Cryo Ammo (or Disruptor Ammo), particularly for missions where you take along a squaddie with a better ammo power, or when you respec for particular missions. ARush is a powerful thing, but it doesn't do everything. For instances where Health enemies are near ledges, CC functions like Throw - insta-kill. Of course it has longer cooldown, but using ARush for the same would involve using cooldown anyway, and you have to aim.

That said, I use CC mostly for variety. Using ARush all the time gets really boring.

Thank you , I'm feeling you , don't get me wrong I love playing as a soldier and AR is so cool but mix it up do be depended on it for everything , I remember looking at the vids before the game dropped for 360 and was not going to play soldier only thing he has is bullet time slow mo. So I started with vanguard, my next go round went soldier anyway and I was done it has one of the best bullet times aka AR in a game I was very impressed, I thought the same as everyone else when I used CS then cause my 1st bonus power I tried was slam and loved it, then ED,FB which I was terrible at throwing, IG and then Reave , was hooked on it , so I tried all bonus powers yes even Fort. Only ones I haven't used is Dominate or NS yet , but out of all I find Reave the most rewarding , but this is about CS you say , yes it is but just to clarify that I know there are better or stronger powers to pick from but after all those play through's I decided to work with CS more just for the hell of it and because ppl frown on it .
So with my quest to figure this so call bad power I began using in soldier runs only evolving once but used reave more than I did CS so my next time around I pick Fort. Knowing I would not use it as much and only putting a few points into CS and it did what I expected it to do, yeah I used it to knock down ppl to far away , busting down barrier and killing mooks with low health stopping blue sun totting shotgun mooks ect. It never hindered my style of play with AR , so now I'm doing Infiltrator and using a lot of Garrus , Grunt and Zaeed , like I said when I started this thread the squaddies CS just seems great , I've been kicking butt with CS using those guys, so after my Sentinel run , I will do another soldier run with evolved CS and maybe share my findings , cause so far a few things have happen with CS that I have stated in previous post , such as Heavy CS being able to drop two foes at once , sorry for the length of this , lol

Modifié par jasonsantanna, 03 mars 2011 - 03:28 .

[termokanden]

Dominate is great but really only on higher difficulties. Taking over a weak enemy isn't all that much fun.

Neural Shock is one of the skills I really underestimated. Pull Field seems to be better and Reave has a stun component too. But NS is instant where Pull Field is not. It has a longer duration than Reave. It doesn't give the ragdoll bonus damage of Pull, but it does make enemies about as easy to hit as they can possibly be.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

CS is so much better on Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed. Shep's CS isn't even instacast, for goodness sake! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to pointsink that into their soldier Shep when they have Slam, NS, FB, etc.. ALL of which can do practically ALL the things CS can and more.

[jasonsantanna]

termokanden wrote...

Dominate is great but really only on higher difficulties. Taking over a weak enemy isn't all that much fun.

Neural Shock is one of the skills I really underestimated. Pull Field seems to be better and Reave has a stun component too. But NS is instant where Pull Field is not. It has a longer duration than Reave. It doesn't give the ragdoll bonus damage of Pull, but it does make enemies about as easy to hit as they can possibly be.

What do you think , I have a Sentinel Shep started but picked Ap for bonus, you think I will get better use out of NS than AP ?
Because I started to pick NS , but I was thinking since Sentinels have no ammo powers that it might be useful as a 1pt bonus

[termokanden]

You're going for a 1 point ammo power? Seems better to bring a squadmate with a Squad Ammo then. They give a bigger bonus.

[jwalker]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

CS is so much better on Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed. Shep's CS isn't even instacast, for goodness sake! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to pointsink that into their soldier Shep when they have Slam, NS, FB, etc.. ALL of which can do practically ALL the things CS can and more.

It's not instacast and can't be curved...

[Locutus_of_BORG]

jwalker wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

CS is so much better on Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed. Shep's CS isn't even instacast, for goodness sake! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to pointsink that into their soldier Shep when they have Slam, NS, FB, etc.. ALL of which can do practically ALL the things CS can and more.

It's not instacast and can't be curved...

Squadmate powers don't need to be curved and are instacast when the casters are out of sight of Sheppard.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 02 mars 2011 - 06:23 .

[jasonsantanna]

termokanden wrote...

You're going for a 1 point ammo power? Seems better to bring a squadmate with a Squad Ammo then. They give a bigger bonus.

Thanks , Sentinels are casters anyway, so maybe I will swap it for NS

[jasonsantanna]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

jwalker wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

CS is so much better on Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed. Shep's CS isn't even instacast, for goodness sake! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to pointsink that into their soldier Shep when they have Slam, NS, FB, etc.. ALL of which can do practically ALL the things CS can and more.

It's not instacast and can't be curved...

Squadmate powers don't need to be curved and are instacast when the casters are out of sight of Sheppard.

Like said I've used just about all bonus powers , I want to see how far I can take it,if there is something more that ppl just don't see maybe , has anyone ever message the developers and gotten there take on CS?

[jwalker]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

jwalker wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

CS is so much better on Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed. Shep's CS isn't even instacast, for goodness sake! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to pointsink that into their soldier Shep when they have Slam, NS, FB, etc.. ALL of which can do practically ALL the things CS can and more.

It's not instacast and can't be curved...

Squadmate powers don't need to be curved and are instacast when the casters are out of sight of Sheppard.

I was referring to Shepard's CS.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

jwalker wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

jwalker wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

CS is so much better on Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed. Shep's CS isn't even instacast, for goodness sake! I just can't imagine why anyone would want to pointsink that into their soldier Shep when they have Slam, NS, FB, etc.. ALL of which can do practically ALL the things CS can and more.

It's not instacast and can't be curved...

Squadmate powers don't need to be curved and are instacast when the casters are out of sight of Sheppard.

I was referring to Shepard's CS.

Oh, alrighty then. Yeah, Shep's CS is pretty weaksauce.


If someone PM'd Christina about it, she'd probably say that CS, while it's a good ability, won't cause Soldier Shep to overshadow Non-Soldier Sheps' CC. Likewise, Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed's CS are good but won't overshadow everyone else's Throw, Pull, NS, Cryo, Incin, etc., etc., etc.

[DxWill10]

sleep? am i the only one who has never heard 'sleep' being used to replace the word 'hate'? When i read this title, I thought you were somehow stating something like people hold off on using concussive shot until later. Generally, that's what it means someone says 'sleep on it'