926 réponses à ce sujet

[Reaverwind]

Morroian wrote...

Schmoodla wrote...

I love the mage class now, it seems improved and more interesting.
I don't care if we have less spells - to me, they seem more powerful now.

I don't think they are but they look like being more interesting to play the development paths are better, more interesting and arguably more strategic than in DAO.

More strategic? You're right - in DA2, you don't bring a mage along to fights now - you get yourself another rogue archer. Better DPS AND better survivability.

[lazuli]

Ahglock wrote...

I was staff spamming quite a bit as is, if the cooldown is twice as long I am not going to be happy. 

Keep in mind that you will be managing a team of four characters.  If Hawke were the only character to be directly controlled, then the longer cooldowns would irritate me.  As it is, with three other characters and all of their abilities to use, the down time should be negligible.

And at least the cooldowns are clearly listed in the skill descriptions.  I am thankful we are past the days of hiding that information from the player.

[Incantrix]

I love the mage class now, less spells to sift through. Not only that, but a lot of the spells were redundant and/or useless, the magic system is much more streamlined now.

[Chrumpek]

Morroian wrote...

LexXxich wrote...

Overall, I'm not going to argue if BW did the right or wrong thing with mages. I *am* going to argue that mages have less actual abilities now, frequency of use of those abilities also decreased, and those abilities are generally less powerful than in Origins.

Thats probably right, so what? What is the issue?

You can't read right? Your asking that question over and over again while others try to explain. Less abilities, more auto cast, less powerfull, ridiculous needs for upgrades.

Maybe that is the issue? Sorry but when I think that I'm gonan watch my mage use his auto attack 1 million times I'm not a happy panda - the animation just doesn't cut it (maybe if they stripped that last staff to ground, fire underneath you crap).

[Polemists05]

I don't know why people are hacking at the mage, they are doing great damage, look fun, and lots more usability.

Personally I plan on 2 mages (Bethany and Merill) at the very least on my first play through. Even without the damage, those buffs and heals come in pretty handy.

[Morroian]

Reaverwind wrote...

More strategic? You're right - in DA2, you don't bring a mage along to fights now - you get yourself another rogue archer. Better DPS AND better survivability.

Sure if you want to min-max.

[Morroian]

Chrumpek wrote...

Morroian wrote...

You can't read right? Your asking that question over and over again while others try to explain. Less abilities, more auto cast, less powerfull, ridiculous needs for upgrades.

Maybe that is the issue? Sorry but when I think that I'm gonan watch my mage use his auto attack 1 million times I'm not a happy panda - the animation just doesn't cut it (maybe if they stripped that last staff to ground, fire underneath you crap).

Once you get a decent amount of spells you won't need to auto attack so much.

Less abilities is to balance out the classes so I'm afraid I can't be critical over that.

Less powerful again is a balance issue, its not inherently a bad thing, it will force us to be more tactical.

Why are upgrades are ridiculous? I'd rather be able to upgrade say paralysis to mass paralysis through an upgrade like in DA2 than by having to get a wothless spell in between paralysis and mass paralysis like in DAO. The system is more focussed on useful spells, on building power through the upgrade system and enabling us to get to the better spells without having to take a lot of useless junk.  

Modifié par Morroian, 27 février 2011 - 11:47 .

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Why are upgrades are ridiculous? I'd rather be able to upgrade say paralysis to mass paralysis through an upgrade like in DA2 than by having to get a wothless spell in between paralysis and mass paralysis like in DAO. The system is more focussed on useful spells, on building power through the upgrade system and enabling us to get to the better spells without having to take a lot of useless junk.  

Actually, having less spells is worse because you have fewer spells available to cast=more spells on cooldown. Especially with the very long cooldown times in DA2 and the generally less powerful spells. Again, the cooldowns in the game are much longer than the ones in the demo for some reason.

The DA 2 trees actually require you to get stuff you are not interested in too. And if I wanted to get ice only (for example) out of the elemental tree my ice spells could never be as powerf as a mage that had both fire and ice spells.

The passive abilities that give mana regeneration require you to get ALL of the spells in the tree.

[Icy Magebane]

Morroian wrote...

Why are upgrades are ridiculous? I'd rather be able to upgrade say paralysis to mass paralysis through an
upgrade like in DA2 than by having to get a wothless spell in between paralysis and mass paralysis like in DAO. The system is more focussed on useful spells, on building power through the upgrade system and
enabling us to get to the better spells without having to take a lot of
useless junk.  

You are ignoring an important point. Almost every upgrade has requirements that force you to purchase several unrelated skills to unlock it.  It's the same system as last time, but organized on a web.  You still wind up with a lot of spells you don't want.  Why do you need to learn 5 Entropy skills first before you can upgrade Sleep?  That should be a level requirement, unrelated to the skill tree itself.

The arguments you are making seem to imply that this system gives us more options, when in fact, it does not.  Even 1 skill point spent covering a tree requirement is a point taken away from customization...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 28 février 2011 - 12:13 .

[Ignoble Fat Man]

 I think the mage is actually better now and from playing it looks like the cooldowns are better than DA:O.  Yes they restrict your choices a bit but be honest people you didn't really use all the spells you had to get just to get the 5 spells you really wanted in DA:O.  I'd trade 20 useless spells for 5 spells I could cast more rapidly and more repeatedly.  This is what they look like they did in the rework of the class.  Remove junk and make you commit a bit to the type of mage you want.  No more jack of all trades master of none and still powerful.  You want power then max out the damned spec.

[Ignoble Fat Man]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Actually, having less spells is worse because you have fewer spells available to cast=more spells on cooldown. Especially with the very long cooldown times in DA2 and the generally less powerful spells. Again, the cooldowns in the game are much longer than the ones in the demo for some reason.

The DA 2 trees actually require you to get stuff you are not interested in too. And if I wanted to get ice only (for example) out of the elemental tree my ice spells could never be as powerf as a mage that had both fire and ice spells.

The passive abilities that give mana regeneration require you to get ALL of the spells in the tree.

I have not noticed any long cool downs that would keep a higher level mage from casting repeated spells.  Also, why do you think a mage should be able to just pick and choose every spell they want and have them be max damage without focusing on the entire aspect of elemental magic.  More focus in a specialization gets you better at that specialization.  If you don't want to be good at elemental magic but want an Ice spell you could get it but you shouldn't complain when it sucks.

If you recall in DA:O the mage class had majorly crappy spells that were necessary to learn and didn't help much in a fight.  You could kill most of the enemy with a dual weild warrior before a mage could cast 2-3 spells and with no real direction for mages their skills were pretty crap and their usefulness limited.  Now the Mage looks to be a great party member that is going to be fun to play.

I do feel the dislike of not being able to target a mob with an AOE spell.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Ignoble Fat Man wrote...

I have not noticed any long cool downs that would keep a higher level mage from casting repeated spells.  Also, why do you think a mage should be able to just pick and choose every spell they want and have them be max damage without focusing on the entire aspect of elemental magic.  More focus in a specialization gets you better at that specialization.  If you don't want to be good at elemental magic but want an Ice spell you could get it but you shouldn't complain when it sucks.

You seem to be going only by the demo. The cooldown times are actually higher in the game than in the demo. In the demo winter's grasp is 10 seconds cooldown. In the game it has a 20 seconds cooldown, as does fireball.

Pleas see the below thread for updated informatino.
http://social.biowar...index/6090138/1

How does learning a fireball help you cast an ice spell?

[Reaverwind]

Ignoble Fat Man wrote...

 I think the mage is actually better now and from playing it looks like the cooldowns are better than DA:O.  Yes they restrict your choices a bit but be honest people you didn't really use all the spells you had to get just to get the 5 spells you really wanted in DA:O.  I'd trade 20 useless spells for 5 spells I could cast more rapidly and more repeatedly.  This is what they look like they did in the rework of the class.  Remove junk and make you commit a bit to the type of mage you want.  No more jack of all trades master of none and still powerful.  You want power then max out the damned spec.

You're in for a major disappointment. All cooldowns were shortened in the demo from what they'll actually be in the full game. You'll be waiting on cooldown timers a lot more than in DA:O. Arcane warrior fans got their melee mage - without the survivability OR the functionality of the warrior class. Speaking of junk spells - that's exactly what those spells become against enemies with resists. Without the flexibilty of the DA:O mage, you might as well park your mage at home.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 28 février 2011 - 12:30 .

[Ignoble Fat Man]

We'll see what all the game is like when it comes out. I would bet they didn't make the mage class a bore to play.

[thesuperdarkone]

Just have to say this:

Mages rule, losers drool!

Modifié par thesuperdarkone, 28 février 2011 - 12:49 .

[bunny-gypsy]

I'm one of those people who love playing healing mages (with some damaging/defense spells to defend myself), so I will definitely play as a mage.

If it's true that the cooldown is even longer than the demo, then I will have to dodge the enemies for a longer time like I did in the demo, lol!

I mean, I didn't even know I could access the health/mana potions until someone mentioned it on this forum, so I was cramping my hand dodging the ogre and hurlocks running around in circles while waiting for my Mind Blast and Heal spells to finish cooling down. My goodness, I was trying to figure out why people thought the ogre battle was easy... 

[Morroian]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Actually, having less spells is worse because you have fewer spells available to cast=more spells on cooldown. Especially with the very long cooldown times in DA2 and the generally less powerful spells. Again, the cooldowns in the game are much longer than the ones in the demo for some reason.

Cooldowns are longer but once we have a decent number of spells we have more spells to use that aren't cooling down, we don't know exactly the result of this yet, although in the advanced portions of the demo I don't think I was lacking spells to cast for too long. Their balancing of the cooldowns would have had to take this into account to ensure we always have spells to cast so long as we have mana.

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

The DA 2 trees actually require you to get stuff you are not interested in too. And if I wanted to get ice only (for example) out of the elemental tree my ice spells could never be as powerf as a mage that had both fire and ice spells. 

There are going to be compromises in every system. The spells are at least useful even if you may not want to role play getting those spells.

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
The passive abilities that give mana regeneration require you to get ALL of the spells in the tree.

No they don't. They do require most of the spells and 7 points invested in the tree. But hey if you want mastery of a school you should be heavily invested in it. 

[Morroian]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The arguments you are making seem to imply that this system gives us more options, when in fact, it does not.  Even 1 skill point spent covering a tree requirement is a point taken away from customization...

Not more options, more focus on spells that are actually useful and a progression system that is more strategic.

[Morroian]

Reaverwind wrote...

Speaking of junk spells - that's exactly what those spells become against enemies with resists. 

You don't know that yet, and besides the magic stat should govern whether you overcome those resists or not.

[Static Jak]

I'm probably going with Mage.
But I hate and I mean HATE the Mage robes. Always have. Please tell me there'll be some light Armour of some kind available too.

Modifié par Static Jak, 28 février 2011 - 01:24 .

[LobselVith8]

I wonder why Cassandra would be seeking the aid of Hawke if he's an apostate to put the Chantry back together (as Varric said), especially if he has the chance of coming to power in Kirkwall or siding with the mages.

[Reaverwind]

Morroian wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Speaking of junk spells - that's exactly what those spells become against enemies with resists. 

You don't know that yet, and besides the magic stat should govern whether you overcome those resists or not.

I do know that, from watching the Gamespot video. The player was throwing fire spells at fire-resistant enemies to "look busy", but they weren't doing a thing.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 28 février 2011 - 01:58 .

[Baelyn]

Mezinger wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

He/She-Hawke is an APOSTATE....not classically trained Circle magi...I think the fighting style much more fits this background...Apostates didn't learn the proper "manners" someone like Wynn would expect. He grew up in a rough life (as far as we can tell) and had to teach himself how to fend for himself so a staff/fighting style would make much more sense than acting exactly like someone who had been trained from 5 years old in an isolated tower about history and classical magic.

Apostate mage does not imply gish and has nothing to do with "proper manners." Apostate merely means a mage not trained by the circle. An "unsanctioned" mage.

You are misunderstanding my intent with "manners" hence why I quoted it as it was to be used loosely. An earlier poster made a statement about how Wynn would feel about mages engaging in combat in this staff fighting style as if to imply that they were being sloppy and not being proper in their use of magic. I would think of it as how someone who learned how to fend for himself on the street with a blade in contrast to a knight who was trained in the proper stances and steps, a polished swordsman.

  An apostate could consist of several different backgrounds...for example with Anders...someone who was in the Circle but defected and escaped in which case he did have some formal training (albeit his rogue attitude may contribute to his fighting style but this has yet to be seen). Where as in Hawke's situation, someone with magical ability who has been hidden away from the Circle their entire life that has had to basically learn on his own and fend for himself. I imagine a young Hawke who still hasn't truly mastered the art of magic trying to defend his family in whatever way he can and developing this style.

Of course all of this is conjecture and ultimately it comes down to what style you prefer in a mage, but I don't think that anyone can argue that this doesn't "fit."

I was making a joke about Wynne's possible responsible. We saw Apostates in DA:O and DA:A and and none of them were ninja baton whirlers who were also decked out in armour. I think I can argue it doesn't "fit" with the DA cannon pre DA2 and in fact I already did!

Well it is obviously...at its heart...a gameplay change nothing more....nothing less. They wanted mage combat to feel more impactful and not just a wizard pushing a stick forward every few seconds and making a little ball come out of it.

I'm simply trying to come up with a lore reason behind why we could explain seeing this change in gameplay. I for one really like it (hence my elaborate logical reasoning behind it  )  but understand how it could not exactly be one's cup of tea.