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[Icy Magebane]

Morroian wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Yeah, that's kind of why I said "altered" was a better word.  Now let's see... Blizard is gone.  Earthquake is gone.  Death Cloud is GONE.  AoE depending on whether or not a single target is nearby does not count.  

Sure it does, regardless of how it achieves its affect its still AOE. It is a pity that blizzard is gone.

Wow, you just don't give up do you?

10. Death Cloud
Requires: Level 12
Requires: Entropic Cloud
Points required in Entropy: 6
The cloud now inherits lesser forms of the upgrades to spells in this school, regardless of whether the mage has learned them.
Spirit damage: 1 every 4s
Enemy attack speed: -50%
Enemy movement speed: -50%
Enemy damage resistance: -25%
Paralyze chance: 100% vs. sleeping targets
Type: Upgrade

Not the same spell as the one from DA:O... not even close.  There is no AoE, it just affects enemies standing near whoever you cast it on...  I'm surprised you even agree that Blizzard is really gone, since the upgrade to Winter's Grasp has a small AoE freeze effect to enemies near the target.

[Le Diable]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Misto29 wrote...

Shiro_the_Gambler wrote...

Exactly how has Crowd Control been nerfed?

*FAILS* Say it's not so! I love laying down a good size blizzard or blazzing Inferno! Most might knock a mage, but it's those spells that stop the mobs in there tracks or confuse them and knock down their AC that gives warriors and rouges a chance to kill them! 

Um... both of those are gone.  In fact, all skills like that are gone...  :/   Maybe "altered" is a better word...  blizzard is straight up gone though.  I'm just hoping Blood Wound isn't nerfed all to hell...

We've still got tempest, firestorm replacing inferno, there's the AOE entropy spells, the glyph spells, blood wound, the force mage spells...........

Yeah, that's kind of why I said "altered" was a better word.  Now let's see... Blizard is gone.  Earthquake is gone.  Death Cloud is GONE.  AoE depending on whether or not a single target is nearby does not count.  So whatever isn't "gone" is altered, and by "altered," I mean "significantly changed and nerfed."  Clear?

Death Cloud is not gone
Its very well there as a spiritual Damage AOE and as an upgrade to entropic cloud

What i am just worried is that the Mage has become more offensive and less defensive

I am a bit worried about the Mana Clash missing meaning we have to deal with Emissaries and Mages more tactically

All i needed in DAO and DAA is Mana Clash with Spell Might activated and a room full of mages were laid to rest with a few tactical attacks.

[Graunt]

Icy Magebane wrote...
Not the same spell as the one from DA:O... not even close.  There is no AoE, it just affects enemies standing near whoever you cast it on...

What exactly is your definition of area of effect then?  Or do you mean to say there's no longer spells that do DAMAGE OVER TIME on a targeted area?  Because what you just said is still area of effect, even if the target itself is not affected.

I am a bit worried about the Mana Clash missing meaning we have to deal with Emissaries and Mages more tactically

Oh noez!  But seriously, I didn't even use Mana Clash on my first three playthroughs and had no problems thanks to line of sight.  For the elite versions, all you had to do was send a Rogue in stealthed and they were pretty much instagibbed.  After trying Mana Clash, it almost felt like a game hack with how utterly trivial it made anything with mana.

Modifié par Graunt, 28 février 2011 - 06:44 .

[Le Diable]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Yeah, that's kind of why I said "altered" was a better word.  Now let's see... Blizard is gone.  Earthquake is gone.  Death Cloud is GONE.  AoE depending on whether or not a single target is nearby does not count.  

Sure it does, regardless of how it achieves its affect its still AOE. It is a pity that blizzard is gone.

Wow, you just don't give up do you?

10. Death Cloud
Requires: Level 12
Requires: Entropic Cloud
Points required in Entropy: 6
The cloud now inherits lesser forms of the upgrades to spells in this school, regardless of whether the mage has learned them.
Spirit damage: 1 every 4s
Enemy attack speed: -50%
Enemy movement speed: -50%
Enemy damage resistance: -25%
Paralyze chance: 100% vs. sleeping targets
Type: Upgrade

Not the same spell as the one from DA:O... not even close.  There is no AoE, it just affects enemies standing near whoever you cast it on...  I'm surprised you even agree that Blizzard is really gone, since the upgrade to Winter's Grasp has a small AoE freeze effect to enemies near the target.

You are right. We have to do it a new fashion way. Sometimes its just difficult to accept the change when you are already at home with previous tactics.

Somehow i really miss blizzard as it was an awesome spell that was very practical

I always used it on the drakes after i climbed the stairs to get the spellweaver for my arcane warrior and its effect was awesome. I am hoping there are no drakes in the amount that existed in DAO... If they do exist then I should perhaps hope the upgrade of winters grasp should be able to stop them on their tracks..

One with my mage and one with anders might do the trick

Somehow i am coming to a conclusion that I would play the game twice or thrice. After playing once i am sure i might realize that my mage could have been better with these and better off without these

[Icy Magebane]

Am I the only one who remembers Death Cloud as being a spell that affects a targeted area? That isn't dependent on the position of one enemy? What I said originally is that Death Cloud and many other spells of that type had been changed. How is that incorrect?

[Le Diable]

And how is it not close to the spell in DAO
It does spirit Damage every 4s and looking at your description if i do combine it with sleep then its devastating.

This is definitely a spell to gather

[Graunt]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Am I the only one who remembers Death Cloud as being a spell that affects a targeted area? That isn't dependent on the position of one enemy? What I said originally is that Death Cloud and many other spells of that type had been changed. How is that incorrect?

It isn't, but it looks like you're also trying to argue that "true" area of effect spells are gone, but they aren't.  They just don't function exactly the same as what similar spells from the other games did.

[Morroian]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Yeah, that's kind of why I said "altered" was a better word.  Now let's see... Blizard is gone.  Earthquake is gone.  Death Cloud is GONE.  AoE depending on whether or not a single target is nearby does not count.  

Sure it does, regardless of how it achieves its affect its still AOE. It is a pity that blizzard is gone.

Not the same spell as the one from DA:O... not even close.  There is no AoE, it just affects enemies standing near whoever you cast it on...  I'm surprised you even agree that Blizzard is really gone, since the upgrade to Winter's Grasp has a small AoE freeze effect to enemies near the target.

I didn't say it was the same, I said it was AOE and it is, it affects enemies around the target of the spell ergo AOE.

[Icy Magebane]

Graunt wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...

Am I the only one who remembers Death Cloud as being a spell that affects a targeted area? That isn't dependent on the position of one enemy? What I said originally is that Death Cloud and many other spells of that type had been changed. How is that incorrect?

It isn't, but it looks like you're also trying to argue that "true" area of effect spells are gone, but they aren't.  They just don't function exactly the same as what similar spells from the other games did.

As I keep stating, that was not my argument.  I am not saying that AoE is gone... I'm saying it was changed and nerfed, which I believe is true.  Does that mean that I am unwilling to adapt to the new system?  No.

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

Graunt wrote...

Don't forget what Brittle does though.  Not only are the targets not doing any damage (since you have to freeze them anyway to get Brittle), but it makes the damage of the other classes skyrocket. So just think of it like the Diablo 2 Necromancer Amplify Damage spell (not exactly the same I know, but a similar outcome).  Mages will be far from useless, and I dare you to play your first run on Hard (since I think Nightmare is locked at the start?) without one.  I'm sure it will be doable, but it won't be nearly as easy.

The extra damage to a single target simply is not woth the trade off. Another warrior or rogue would add more dps and better crowd control.

I don't think NM is locked, at least I hope not. Hard does not have friendly fire. I'm starting out on NM, and my first character will be a mage. I always play mages first.  My next two will likely be a two-handed warriors and dual wield rogue. Bow rogues are a power-house in this game.

In the demo I played:
Mage (elementalist)
Mage (Arcane)
Two-handed warrior
dual wield rogue
bow rogue

Haven't gotten to sword and board yet.

4. Desiccate
Requires: Level 8
Requires: Petrify
Points required in Primal: 3
Petrify now leaves the foe more exposed, decreasing protection from attacks and turning most enemies BRITTLE.
Enemy damage resistance: -30%
BRITTLE chance: 100% vs. normal enemies
Type: Upgrade

Desiccated enemies are still harder to kill than normal.  Dessicate is an upgrate to petrify and just moves part of the damage protection petrify gives, I think. In any event, it can only be cast once every 45 seconds.
 

3. Petrify
Requires: Level 4
Requires: Stonefist
The mage entombs an enemy in stone, leaving the foe temporarily unable to move. However, the target becomes more resistant to damage for the duration of the spell.
Paralyze chance: 100% vs. any enemy
Enemy damage resistance: +50%
Duration: 15s
Cost: 30 mana
Cooldown: 45s
Type: Activated ability

1. Hex of Torment
Requires: Level 4
The mage curses the enemy, increasing damage from all sources for a short time.
Enemy damage resistance: -25%
Duration: 15s
Cost: 20 mana
Cooldown: 30s
Type: Activated ability

Ok, this lets the mage increase damage on an enemy once every 30sec. I dare say an extra warrior or rogue would do more damage than the mage is increasing the damage by.

10. Death Cloud
Requires: Level 12
Requires: Entropic Cloud
Points required in Entropy: 6
The cloud now inherits lesser forms of the upgrades to spells in this school, regardless of whether the mage has learned them.
Spirit damage: 1 every 4s
Enemy attack speed: -50%
Enemy movement speed: -50%
Enemy damage resistance: -25%
Paralyze chance: 100% vs. sleeping targets
Type: Upgrade

I think this spell will affect your own party on NM, so useless. Oh, the aoe is 1 point every 4 seconds. You'd die of old age before it killed anything.

Modifié par Grumpy Old Wizard, 28 février 2011 - 06:55 .

[Morroian]

Le Diable wrote...

I am a bit worried about the Mana Clash missing meaning we have to deal with Emissaries and Mages more tactically

All i needed in DAO and DAA is Mana Clash with Spell Might activated and a room full of mages were laid to rest with a few tactical attacks.

The upgrade to dispel magic does spirit damage to anyone with a magic aura up, its not mana clash but it will harm mages.

[Qays]

I'd like some help with theorycrafting, if you'll oblige me. I'm going by the ability numbers in the TGS2011 thread, please correct me if something more recent has come up.

First a few observations. Ignoring sustained abilities for the moment (because we just don't know what our mana situation will look like):

Elemental seems like it's oriented around
1) causing brittle and
2) doing damage independently of CCC

Primal seems like it's oriented around
1) causing brittle
2) taking advantage of stagger

Spirit is for
1) single-target damage (especially vs disorient)
2) walking bomb

Arcane is for
1) single-target damage (especially vs stagger) + CC in the form of Crushing Prison
2) de facto second heal in the form of Barrier
3) agro dumping

Entropy is for
1) single-target +damage and misc other debuffs
2) group stun

Creation is for
1) heal
2) sustaineds, glyphs

As far as specializations, the only one we know much about is Spirit Healer, which is for
1) stupid

So, a few questions that we should be asking ourselves:
1. Do the "7-point passives" for Elemental, Primal, and Spirit stack in terms of mana regen?
2. Does it seem that warriors will be able to stagger groups of enemies reliably every 20 seconds in order to make Chain Lightning really kick ass? Do Chain Lightning forks do less damage than the initial hit?
3. Does Arcane Fortress reduce damage taken to 0% (50% + 50 = 100%)? Or to 25% (50% * 50% = 25%)?

Some tentative conclusions I'm drawing:

Fireball looks like it's total ****, which is a personal disappointment considering how much mileage I got out of that spell in DAO. Elemental still looks like it'll be doing competitive damage, though, because Firestorm is a beast and both of the ice spells do respectable damage. And not being dependent on CCCs will definitely count for something.

Primal, on the other hand, looks inferior except for Chain Lightning, which in all fairness looks really, really, really powerful when properly set up. So powerful that I kind of think it must do less damage on forks or something to compensate.

In terms of sheer efficaciousness per point spent, it looks like Arcane handily trumps the other trees. An agro dump + AE stun, a really powerful single-target nuke + CC, a heal equivalent, AND a +groupdamage sustained? Yes please.

Entropy looks like it'll own for boss fights and be kind of pointless for everything else. Spirit has a lot riding on how reliably we can set up Walking Bomb clusters.

[Le Diable]

Morroian wrote...

Le Diable wrote...

I am a bit worried about the Mana Clash missing meaning we have to deal with Emissaries and Mages more tactically

All i needed in DAO and DAA is Mana Clash with Spell Might activated and a room full of mages were laid to rest with a few tactical attacks.

The upgrade to dispel magic does spirit damage to anyone with a magic aura up, its not mana clash but it will harm mages.

Thanks for the infor but according to the description below

6. Dispel Magic
The mage interrupts enemy spellcasting, removes
hostile magical effects from the party, and disables sustained magical
abilities from enemies across an area of the battlefield.
Dispel chance: 100%
Size: 5m
Cost: 20 mana
Cooldown: 15s
Type: Activated ability

7. Transmutation
Requires: Level 7
Requires: Dispel Magic
Points required in Spirit: 2
Dispel
Magic now inflicts spirit damage against any enemy using a sustained
spell, and heals any party member from whom harmful effects are
dispelled.
Spirit damage: 16 vs. enemies using sustained spells
Health regeneration: 20% for companions affected by hostile spells
Type: Upgrade

So if i am attacking a set of mages or emissaries, especially emissaries, who do not have any sustained spells activated, would that mean there is no damage done from this spell?

If damage cannot be done that way... i did better keep my eyes peeled open to catch the moment when these emissaries or mages have their sustained activated.

[Le Diable]

In the primal this is a very terrific chain to own

6. Chain Lightning
The mage singles a target with lightning, and electrical arcs lance out to hit other nearby foes.
Effect: Lightning arcs 2 times
Electricity damage: 19
ELemental force: 2x
Size: 2m
Cost: 30 mana
Cooldown: 20s
Type: Activated ability

7. Chain Reaction
Requires: Level 6
Requires: Chain Lightning
Points required in Primal: 2
Chain Lightning now leaps between more enemies and strikes STAGGERED foes with further electricity damage.
Effect: Lightning arc +2 times
Electricity damage: 600% vs. STAGGERED targets
Elemental force: 200% vs. STAGGERED targets
Size: +2m
Type: Upgrade

8. Tempest
Requires: Level 5
Requires: Chain Lightning
Magical bolts of lightning stab down into foes across a wide area of the battlefield.
Electricity damage: 4 every 4s
Elemental force: 2x
Duration: 20s
Size: 15m
Cost: 50 mana
Cooldown: 30s
Type: Activated ability

9. Strikes Twice
Requires: Level 9
Requires: Tempest
Points required in Primal: 3
Tempest's fury increases substantially, striking the affected area much more frequently.
Strike interval: -2s
Type: Upgrade

10. Galvanism
Requires: Level 7
Requires: Petrify
Requires: Tempest
Points required in Primal: 7
The mage masters the powers of earth and sky, inflicting greater electricity damage and learning moer effective forms of the stone-based spells in this school.
Physical damage: 125% for Stonefist
Armor: 125% for Rock Armor
Duration: 125% for Petrify
Electricity damage: +25%
Mana/stamina regeneration rate: +10
Type: Passive ability

[Grumpy Old Wizard]

The lightning spells do no friendlly fire on NM according to Peter in the talents thread so even though the lightning damage is inferiro to the damage of the elemental spells they are going to be my primary AOE damage.

I eagerly await informatiojn on the force mage and blood mage to see if they can save the mage class from mediocrity.

[Ahglock]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

The lightning spells do no friendlly fire on NM according to Peter in the talents thread so even though the lightning damage is inferiro to the damage of the elemental spells they are going to be my primary AOE damage.

I eagerly await informatiojn on the force mage and blood mage to see if they can save the mage class from mediocrity.

Yeah I guess if and when I play NM ill do the same.  I kind of understand the no friendly fire in that in DA2 everything is faster so it is a lot harder to target groups without it hitting the party.  In DAO and DAA I could frequently get a big AoE or 3 off as enemies closed.  In the demo everyone was on top of me or the meat shield before the first spell got to them. 

[Le Diable]

Damn!!! just a personal thought
I am so bored of the demo right now
Played it as a Mage 10 times
as a two handed warrior 4 times
as a duel wielding rogue 1 time (tried archery but did not like it)

Waiting impatiently for March 8

[Qays]

Ran some numbers. Spell damages, fully upgraded, using the level 3 stats:

Winter's Grasp - 34 single, 20s cooldown, 1.7 DPS
Cone of Cold - 23 AE, 30s, 0.77 DPS
Fireball - 12 AE, 20s, 0.6 DPS
Firestorm - 17*10 = 170 AE, 30s, 5.67 DPS
Stonefist - 45 single (90 vs disorient), 15s, 3(6) DPS
Chain Lightning - 24 AE (144 vs stagger), 20s, 1.2(7.2) DPS
Tempest - 2.5*20 = 50 AE, 30s, 1.67 DPS
Spirit Bolt - 30 single (60 vs disorient), 10s, 3(6) DPS
Crushing Prison - 87 single (174 vs stagger), 30s, 2.9(5.8) DPS

In order:
Chain Lightning CCC - 7.2
Stonefist CCC - 6
Spirit Bolt CCC - 6
Crushing Prison CCC - 5.8
Firestorm - 5.67
Stonefist - 3
Spirit Bolt - 3
Crushing Prison - 2.9
Winter's Grasp - 1.7
Tempest - 1.67
Chain Lightning - 1.2
Cone of Cold - .77
Fireball - .6

First off: almost all of the AE spells are in elemental and primal. At least some point investment into at least one of these trees looks like it's going to be necessary for doing reasonable AE, though I guess you might be able to get some results by abusing Walking Bomb.

In terms of raw AE DPS, a primal mage will be doing about 26% more AE damage on staggered enemies than an elemental mage, but about 60% less AE damage against non-staggered enemies than an elemental mage. Meaning stagger is going to have to be up essentially every time we cast Chain Lightning in order to make Primal the better choice for AE.

On the other hand, it seems quite clear that elemental has by far the worst single-target DPS tools, perhaps to compensate for its vastly superior brittle-causing ability. Primal actually seems like the best tree for single-target DPS, hands down.

I'd also like to point out just how awful Fireball is. It needs a serious buff, as it stands its damage is laughably low - it is by far the lowest DPS nuke in the mage's arsenal.

I'm going to go so far as to say that the best all-around damage build is probably something along the lines of 8 primal, 4 elemental (for Apocalyptic Firestorm + Pyromancer), remaining points wherever (Paralyzing Prison and Spirit Strike both conflict with Primal CCC, probably still useful to pick up though). An 8 elemental build will cause a lot more brittle and probably do a bit more AE damage on average, but single-target DPS will suffer.

[Graunt]

I don't know if you simply didn't realize this or what, but all of the physical class aoe damage abilities hurt allies now too.  You won't be able to do ANY area of effect damage (i.e. Whirlwind) with allies near.  That's horrible game design, but hey, at least you don't have to feel like your Mage is being singled out and abused.

Ran some numbers. Spell damages, fully upgraded, using the level 3 stats:

No offense, but that chart is irrelevant except on bosses. It's not like we need to see some "sustained damage on trash mobs in an MMORPG" table when most enemies come in waves with a break in between each wave or area that has new seeds.  Chain Lightning does not look like it beats everything easily, it simply looks like a reliable spell that you can pretty much fire and forget.

Your tables also don't factor in Brittle, which are a huge boost to the physical classes output.  Of course if you're trying to make a Mage, Mage, Mage, Warrior group (if this is even possible), things look differently, but for a well balanced group, even the lackluster "damage" spells increase damage significantly.

Modifié par Graunt, 28 février 2011 - 08:26 .

[Shinimas]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

The lightning spells do no friendlly fire on NM according to Peter in the talents thread so even though the lightning damage is inferiro to the damage of the elemental spells they are going to be my primary AOE damage.

I eagerly await informatiojn on the force mage and blood mage to see if they can save the mage class from mediocrity.

Chain Lightning is actually stronger than Fireball and Tempest might be weaker, but it always strikes enemies, unlikes Firestorms random explosions.

Stone Fist is also stronger that Winter's Grasp, at least on light armored targets. Yes, you guessed it, I will spec Primal.

[Le Diable]

FORCE MAGE


BLOOD MAGE


SPIRIT HEALER


Oh god dont tell me i am to spam heals

Modifié par Le Diable, 28 février 2011 - 08:35 .

[Graunt]

Le Diable wrote...

FORCE MAGE


BLOOD MAGE


SPIRIT HEALER


Oh god dont tell me i am to spam heals

Err, is there a way to actually see what these do?

Modifié par Graunt, 28 février 2011 - 08:27 .

[Shinimas]

Graunt wrote...

I don't know if you simply didn't realize this or what, but all of the physical class aoe damage abilities hurt allies now too.  You won't be able to do ANY area of effect damage (i.e. Whirlwind) with allies near.  That's horrible game design, but hey, at least you don't have to feel like your Mage is being singled out and abused.

I wouldn't say it's horrible game design. Just that nightmare is nightmarish.

[Qays]

Actually, check this out. Most of the DPS talents in elemental and primal are clustered in the beginning of the tree - for four points in elemental you can get Firestorm doing 75% of its maximum damage, similarly for four points in primal you can get both Stonefist and Chain Lightning doing 75% of their respective maximum damages. Another 7 points will get you 75% Spirit Strike (no CCC) and 100% Paralyzing Prison (no CCC) - and get you most of the way to maxing Walking Bomb and Barrier, respectively.

5.4 DPS Chain Lightning CCC
4.5 Stonefist CCC
4.25 Firestorm
2.9 Crushing Prison
2.25 Spirit Strike

Honestly keeping all of those abilities on cooldown looks like it'll make for some fairly action-packed gameplay, and it'll probably do more damage than going 8 points into any one tree - albeit at the expense of mana efficiency.

[Le Diable]

Graunt wrote...

Le Diable wrote...

FORCE MAGE


BLOOD MAGE


SPIRIT HEALER
[

Oh god dont tell me i am to spam heals

Err, is there a way to actually see what these do?

I believe there is a spell named FIST OF THE MAKER for the forced mage... with this should it exist i would kiss the stone fist goodbye
and another called TELEKINETIC BURST

Modifié par Le Diable, 28 février 2011 - 08:34 .