257 réponses à ce sujet

[pezit]

I prefer combat to be slower and more gritty than the fast and flashy of DA2. I don't think i would've minded the combat as much if this was a new game and not a sequal, it's the fact that they changed the entire feel of an already developed world that bothers me so much.



What i would've liked them to do is to upgrade what was already there, kinda like how baldurs gate evolved into baldurs gate 2, then you have a solid ground to stand on, and improving on stuff instead of remaking it refines it and makes it a better game. Blizzard are the masters of this, they aren't trying to be overly creative but instead they refine and perfect previous ideas which makes for amazing games.

[Merced652]

why you guys hatin on the flashes of light and ninja jumps? That **** is cool, like... cool. Not lame, not exaggerated, its like awesome n stuff. You get to see your warrior guy be all like yo i'm iwthin 10 yards of this mofo "FLASH O' LIGHTTT" boom headshot now i'm right beside that bro bro.

[Melduran]

If I had to compare the demo to any other game I've played it would be a cross from torchlight and diablo.

[slimgrin]

pezit wrote...

I prefer combat to be slower and more gritty than the fast and flashy of DA2. I don't think i would've minded the combat as much if this was a new game and not a sequal, it's the fact that they changed the entire feel of an already developed world that bothers me so much.

This is how I feel. The fact DA had 'shuffle, shuffle slash' animations or poor character design simply does not call for stripping the character and atmosphere. It's a demo, just a snippet, but aside from combat mechanics, it doesn't feel like the game takes place in the DA universe at all.

I do like the faster combat and some of the attack animations ( Warriors, mages) But they are clearly trying to copy the look and feel of another genre, which I don't like. 

~edit

Modifié par slimgrin, 25 février 2011 - 05:26 .

[Wygrath]

It was a bit disconcerting at first to see the changes, but after playing through the demo a few times to get used to the new mechanics, then playing Origins some, then playing the demo again. I've got to say that the new combat mechanics are infinitely better than the old mechanics.



I think that the vocal dissenters are just being neophobic and posting knee jerk reactions because the mechanics are "different".



The same thing happened with Mass Effect 2 and overall ME2 is a far better game than it's predecessor.

[StrikeQ]

DA2 combat is far better than DAO combat. DAO was too slow and boring, which to me also had little interaction.

[The Spirit of Dance]

After replaying origins so many times i guess adding a LITTLE more action is a great idea but i think they went overboard.

[wowpwnslol]

I want slow paced combat, with lower damage abilities - where you NEED CC and healing to survive. Where you NEED to have correct positioning in order to avoid certain abilities or simply to set up an attack. The anime fighting style with teleports, movement so fast you can't see it and spamming abilites does not interest me. Bioware got it right in classic DA then started catering to "the crowd" in Awakening. DA2 is final nail in the coffin. Just spam multiple AoE and you win. Even friendly fire is nightmare difficulty only - when it really should be active on all difficulties.

[TheRevanchist]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Tourach77 wrote...

I don't doubt that it will be harder on a higher difficulty, but that is different from more tactical.  It is clear that the direction they went with DA2 is of hordes and action oriented combat.  The simple fact that I can't zoom out and unlock the camera into the top down tactical view (or couldn't in the demo at least) is proof enough IMO.

I'm playing a rogue in DAO right now (as in literally, I'm writing this on my laptop while my xbox is playing on my monitor next to the laptop =)) and all I do continually is walk behind people and then hit auto attack. I've got some skills that basically amounts to "auto attack really hard", with a few "stun the one target I'm targeting with my auto attack" options in the fray. It's not exactly very tactical.

In my play of the DA2 demo, my rogue ran into a group of darkspawn, hit one for a bit, used the backstab skill to blink behind another enemy to finish it off after Bethany had hit it and its ilk with a fireball. I pressed on too hard on purpose to keep the enemies off Bethany's frailer frame, whereupon they surrounded me like I had planned and I used my evade skill to hop out from in between them, stunned them all with miasmic flask and then had Aveline do her best to retake control of the battle field before the darkspawn horde recovered.

Note that I'm currently comparing a level 18 rogue in DAO to a level 3 rogue in DA2. Yet I have so many more options in DA2.

This...a thousand times this...I never planed a single thing in DAO...abilitys felt totaly useless and a waste to time, all I ever did was auto attack and win every fight. So all I got out of DAO was slugish and clunky combat animations because it was pointless to do anything else. DA2 changed all that...that demo had me strategizeing like a mother f***er. I probably used more tactics in one playthrough of that demo then I did in my 15+ playthroughs of DAO combined...without the "almighty" and "oh so nessasary" birds eye view camera that supposedly makes tactics impossible without it. I mean honestly as far as I'm concerned DA2 made tactics not only nessasary but fun as hell, not to mention a thousand times easier to impliment...DA2 is far better in this regard in my opinion.

[LessThanKate]

Hubrah wrote...

My opinion

Story > Action

Pretty much this.

Maybe I don't know what an "old school RPG" supposedly is, but I've played some of the older Final Fantasy and Breath of Fire games, and I recall being frustrated by all the random battles. They weren't particularly hard, but you couldn't take three steps without getting into a fight and it was easy to forget what you were doing in the first place. Difficulty and frustration need not go hand in hand when it comes to games.

It was my impression that those were the games purists talked about. Teeth gnashing difficulty, no safe haven of save point in sight. If there was any story, you would've forgotten about it by the time you finished. Maybe I missed something since I played Origins on a console, but I didn't think that's what the game was out to be.

There will be a few things I'll miss about Origins, but the aspects I liked the most stll seem to be in tact, if not improved. Slow combat is not one of them. Pressing X on an enemy only for my charactr to walk up to it after a slight pause is not one of them. Shuffling is not one of tem.

Modifié par LessThanKate, 25 février 2011 - 05:42 .

[Giant ambush beetle]

This...a thousand times this...I never planed a single thing in DAO...abilitys felt totaly useless and a waste to time, all I ever did was auto attack and win every fight. So all I got out of DAO was slugish and clunky combat animations because it was pointless to do anything else. .

Harharhar.
Next time turn the difficulty mode up to ''normal or hard'', grasshopper. Good luck with auto-attacking Flemeth or the dragon at the mountain top.  (Don't forget to make a vid of your fail)

Modifié par The Woldan , 25 février 2011 - 05:24 .

[drima85]

the only thing about the demo that left me a bit disappointed was how easy the combat felt like... I hope playing at hardcore/nightmare difficulty in retail will make combat intensive just like some encounters in DA:O



beside that, the new combat system is just amazing: faster doesnt equal less rpg-istic to me

[shadow king 3]

 i will admit combat in the original game was not quite as fufilling as it could have been, however it was extremely tactical and that what was so great. Now its backfilp this gib that and fly through the air like a jedi on crack

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

shadow king 3 wrote...

 i will admit combat in the original game was not quite as fufilling as it could have been, however it was extremely tactical and that what was so great. Now its backfilp this gib that and fly through the air like a jedi on crack

That is completely accurate statement gathred from the first 40 minutes or so of the game....yep totally right. its not like ur just comparing your VERY brief time with the sequel to an entire games worth of the first. next time compare the beginning of the sequel to the beginning of origins. that is more accurate. because there was far less tactics in the first 40 min of origins than the first 40 of DA2

[Tourach77]

LessThanKate wrote...

It was my impression that those were the games purists talked about. Teeth gnashing difficulty, no safe haven of save point in sight. If there was any story, you would've forgotten about it by the time you finished. Maybe I missed something since I played Origins on a console, but I didn't think that's what the game was out to be.

I think your problem is a fundamental lack of understanding of what "purists" are talking about here.  When Bioware started, it started with Baldur's Gate.  It was a real time computer game based on the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons system of doing things (combat included).  It and BG2, were and still are hailed as some of the greatest computer RPGs of all time.  These are the games "purists" here are talking about.  Final Fantasy random battles they were not.

Many of us come from the age of text based adventures.  If you remember typing "look desk" or "take candle" instead of selecting attack and selecting a target in Final Fantasy you are probably remembering the "right" type of game.  When they evolved into wonderful computer RPGs like Baldur's Gate, taking elements from table top gaming with them, they created a much more slow and deliberate tactical combat system.  Superhero animations were not the norm, in fact they reduced the immersion in the game world.  The need to include consoles and to appease the masses has created what we have now.  When I see my two handed warrior friend super charging around the screen into mobs I want to laugh.  That isn't the flow of a Baldur's Gate, it is the flow of a Darksiders (which is a game I greatly enjoyed).  Difficulty I want, but not in hitting button mashes, I want it in how I PLAN for a battle more than how I click buttons.

It was already said here, but use of CC, positioning, timing, etc. are key.  In DA2 the CC durations have been greatly reduced and beyond that the game seems to be geared towards hordes of mobs with flashy death animations.  I don't want to feel like my hero is cutting through zombies...in my CRPGs I want to feel like combats are all meaningful and my enemies are meaningful.

*DEMO SPOILER ALERT*

In the demo when your sister dies I laughed.  I laughed and I couldn't stop laughing.  Note, I didn't laugh at all when Cailan died in DA:O to an ogre - I felt quite saddened.  Why did I laugh this time?  Because she dies suddenly and hilariously and then you proceed to beat the crap out of the ogre plus hordes of his buddies at the same time.  The combat made me feel like a superhero but the story tried to make me feel like I should instead care about the characters' vulnerabilities.  This combat system (action oriented flashy gameplay) doesn't mesh with the world and the story.

[Tourach77]

*blah @ double posting*

Modifié par Tourach77, 25 février 2011 - 06:05 .

[Morning808]

Action has nothing to do with story so I have no problem but Story>Action



but Action>Boring

[Tourach77]

Morning808 wrote...

Action has nothing to do with story so I have no problem but Story>Action

but Action>Boring

My issue is that action DOES have to do with story.  In this case I find the style of combat damaging to the sense of immersion.  I mean in the demo characters feel like they would be at home in an anime or Devil May Cry game.  They are teleport charging around the room, mages are slicing people to bits with the bottom of their staves, and darkspawn are getting mowed down by the horde.  Flashy superhero action makes the story seem less consistent.

[AkiKishi]

Tourach77 wrote...

My issue is that action DOES have to do with story.  In this case I find the style of combat damaging to the sense of immersion.  I mean in the demo characters feel like they would be at home in an anime or Devil May Cry game.  They are teleport charging around the room, mages are slicing people to bits with the bottom of their staves, and darkspawn are getting mowed down by the horde.  Flashy superhero action makes the story seem less consistent.

I find Diablo combat to be very immersive because I don't need to think about what I'm doing. DA2 is similiar  in the Demo, program everyones AI and just leaves them to it while I go into hack and slash mode, or whatever its called for a spellcaster.

In other ways it reminds of StarOcean although DA2 is much much easier. Star Ocean is very hands on action combat, but the story does not suffer because of it.

[Gamer Xtreme]

wowpwnslol wrote...

I want slow paced combat, with lower damage abilities - where you NEED CC and healing to survive. Where you NEED to have correct positioning in order to avoid certain abilities or simply to set up an attack. The anime fighting style with teleports, movement so fast you can't see it and spamming abilites does not interest me. Bioware got it right in classic DA then started catering to "the crowd" in Awakening. DA2 is final nail in the coffin. Just spam multiple AoE and you win. Even friendly fire is nightmare difficulty only - when it really should be active on all difficulties.

Sorry, but how is Awakening any different to Origins? I mean, fair enough it is an inferior game but the underlying mechanics are exactly the same.

[Vincent Rosevalliant]

I would welcome more action moves and at a higher pace, if only they had left the strategy-part IN.

That ogre fight was the most boring thing I've played in a long time. I remember being wary of these guys. I remember when he first destroyed my entire party in Origins. It picked up my fighters, mule kicked the flankers, beat on the person in its hand till it was lifeless then casually chucking it away only to return for corpsy dinner later. This was a worthy adversary. When it grabbed you, you had a problem. The rest of the party would have to use their strategy to distract/stun/wound/trick it into letting the one in its hand go.

Now I just kept whacking it for what felt like minutes, never once did it even try and pick anyone up. It charged once or twice. I remember yawning. Was the strategy supposed to be in the "another wave!" sections of the game?
I only used the pauze button if I had lost sight of what happened on screen. Because of the explosions of blood, you see. Or from all of the teleporting through people.

And what ever happened to the finishing-moves? I remember being rewarded with chopping someones head off or killing them in cool ways. It even went slow-mo sometimes, and it was awesome. Now I shot someone with an arrow and he exploded like a ball of blood.....really? From an arrow?

[Morning808]

Tourach77 wrote...

Morning808 wrote...

Action has nothing to do with story so I have no problem but Story>Action

but Action>Boring

My issue is that action DOES have to do with story.  In this case I find the style of combat damaging to the sense of immersion.  I mean in the demo characters feel like they would be at home in an anime or Devil May Cry game.  They are teleport charging around the room, mages are slicing people to bits with the bottom of their staves, and darkspawn are getting mowed down by the horde.  Flashy superhero action makes the story seem less consistent.

Oh does your example have anything to do with the story?

They attack fast and look like Devil May Cry...nothing to the story there

[Steks25]

Faster paced combat - yes.



Superhero kung fu moves with flying, teleporting and ridiculous acrobatic stunts - no.





Tought the thing I hate the most is auto-attack combat.



Guess we'll see what its like when its released.

[Postguard]

Stop complaining the auto-attack is perfect and i hope it stays that way in the full game

Modifié par Postguard, 25 février 2011 - 06:39 .

[LessThanKate]

Tourach77 wrote...

LessThanKate wrote...

It was my impression that those were the games purists talked about. Teeth gnashing difficulty, no safe haven of save point in sight. If there was any story, you would've forgotten about it by the time you finished. Maybe I missed something since I played Origins on a console, but I didn't think that's what the game was out to be.

I think your problem is a fundamental lack of understanding of what "purists" are talking about here.  When Bioware started, it started with Baldur's Gate.  It was a real time computer game based on the Advanced Dungeons and Dragons system of doing things (combat included).  It and BG2, were and still are hailed as some of the greatest computer RPGs of all time.  These are the games "purists" here are talking about.  Final Fantasy random battles they were not.

Many of us come from the age of text based adventures.  If you remember typing "look desk" or "take candle" instead of selecting attack and selecting a target in Final Fantasy you are probably remembering the "right" type of game.  When they evolved into wonderful computer RPGs like Baldur's Gate, taking elements from table top gaming with them, they created a much more slow and deliberate tactical combat system.  Superhero animations were not the norm, in fact they reduced the immersion in the game world.  The need to include consoles and to appease the masses has created what we have now.  When I see my two handed warrior friend super charging around the screen into mobs I want to laugh.  That isn't the flow of a Baldur's Gate, it is the flow of a Darksiders (which is a game I greatly enjoyed).  Difficulty I want, but not in hitting button mashes, I want it in how I PLAN for a battle more than how I click buttons.

It was already said here, but use of CC, positioning, timing, etc. are key.  In DA2 the CC durations have been greatly reduced and beyond that the game seems to be geared towards hordes of mobs with flashy death animations.  I don't want to feel like my hero is cutting through zombies...in my CRPGs I want to feel like combats are all meaningful and my enemies are meaningful.

*DEMO SPOILER ALERT*

In the demo when your sister dies I laughed.  I laughed and I couldn't stop laughing.  Note, I didn't laugh at all when Cailan died in DA:O to an ogre - I felt quite saddened.  Why did I laugh this time?  Because she dies suddenly and hilariously and then you proceed to beat the crap out of the ogre plus hordes of his buddies at the same time.  The combat made me feel like a superhero but the story tried to make me feel like I should instead care about the characters' vulnerabilities.  This combat system (action oriented flashy gameplay) doesn't mesh with the world and the story.

Well, as I said, I'm a console player, so I'm not surprised to be wrong. This does, however, tell me that what's considered traditional role playing is relative. If you're saying that Origins was along these lines, then perhaps it should have been exclusive to the PC. Can't say I didn't benefit from their decision, though; the sometimes clunky combat of console Origins did not phase me as I explored the new world and story, and I don't expect a faster version of that will bother me either. 

My guess is the framed narrative is asking players to suspend some of their beliefs on how the characters would actually move and such. To an extent, a lot of games do something like this (example, walking around snowy mountains in normal clothes and not freezing to death) and it's done because certain realties don't translate very well into gameplay. I can't account for the CRPGs you speak of, but I would wager even they can't have perfect verisimilitude. 

I will admit, it was...pitiful that one sibling died so easily when it could have been prevented just as easily. Not like it was the first time in a Bioware game a character fell for the sake of the plot, but there it is. I assumed two characters dying right off the bat was to implicate a long journey of personal struggles. The fact that Hawke has unusually quick reflexes and nimble flips (don't really see how becoming transparent with "Stealth" is any better) did not phase that. If I were reading a book, then it would have bothered me, but not here.