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Should Shepard be more defined?


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#26
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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wizardryforever wrote...

But is it possible to script all of those reasons?  I'd say not.


A few extra dialogue wheels isn't  asking much.

Don't have Shepard cry out when the building explodes. That's it really. That's my only beef with the DLC.

Liara coming up to the Normandy is up to Shepard so if you invite her up it makes sense that she and Shepard are close.

Even the combat dialog is just them sharing snark in the heat of battle.

I just really really really really really hate that, "LIARA'S IN THERE!" when the bomb goes off.

#27
Aedan_Cousland

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Shepard has concern for every member of his team, whether or not the players feel the same way for the character. Shepard has to be defined to a certain degree, because he is a scripted character. This isn't Dragon Age: Origins where the main character has no voiced dialogue and his or her personality is determined completely by the player. One of Shepard's defined characteristics is that he's a good combat leader. It's part of the reason why he was chosen as a Spectre and part of the reason why he was brought back by Cerberus. A good combat leader does have concern for the well being of his team.

As an example, leadership in the US Marine Corps has two objectives:

1. Mission Accomplishment
2. Troop Welfare

One of the 14 traits that define a good combat leader according to the  US Marine Corps, is also loyalty. Note that loyalty refers not only to loyalty to country, Corps, or to superiors, but to subordinates. Loyalty goes both ways.

I'm using the US Marine Corps as example, but none of that is unique to the Corps. It is a hallmark of all Western militaries and their approach to combat leadership. The Alliance grew out of that tradition and would be no different.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 25 février 2011 - 09:00 .


#28
Jonathan Shepard

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Definitely more defined. He's already a set character, regardless of male or female. As the player, you're only supposed to help choose his course of action, not BE him. If it were so, then they should've left him voice-less completely, like a standard RPG. But I like the voiced Shep. So I'm glad we got to express a couple of emotions in some dialogue, while Shepard had a "core" personality those all stemmed from in cutscenes & gameplay.

#29
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

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Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Shepard has concern for every member of his team, whether or not the players feel the same way for the character.


No, he doesn't always. He can be downright mean to some of them. He can even kill them.

#30
Wulfram

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There should be more opportunity for the player to define Shepard.

#31
Bluko

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It's a game with a set narrative, and you are allowed some freedom. You have to remember you are assuming a role, not making one. Mass Effect is nice in that already gives you a great amount of ability to shape that role to your liking. I think asking more is just being greedy, and frankly games aren't advanced enough and probably never will reach a point of "complete freedom".

I don't want to end up like Harbinger where I "ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL" and literally just use my avatar as a tool.

Now I'm also not saying I like or agree with everything in-game, but it's just a game. You gotta play by the rules to a certain extent. Yeah somethimes Shepard says things or does things that seem kind of stupid. But another person might disagree.

Rather then making Shepard more defined or emotional, I'd rather just have more options sometimes to express my Shepard's feelings. But really Bioware already does a pretty good job of this and frankly there's only so many options you can have in a game.

Frankly if I'm playing a self-made protagonist I feel they should be a relatively emotionally neutral character. I don't want my Shepard in ME3 to start crying all the time or laughing all the time, or whatever. I mean give those options sometimes when they areappropriate, but I don't want to see Shepard degenerate into a whiney JRPG teenager or an overly-macho slur spitting Western gunslinger.

And Shepard's a former military officer besides. Most military officers are pretty serious people. They are trained to be disciplined and remain calm. I don't get why people want Shepard to be otherwise it wouldn't make sense.


It's like how people complain about Shepard's reaction to death. Seems fine to me. By Shepard's description they blacked-out suffocating and then woke up again at the Cerberus facilty. That's generally what happens when you're revived. I mean yes sometimes a few people talk about seeing a light etc., but do you want Shepard to explain how he played ping-pong with Jesus for 2 years? But most people who die and get revived don't remember diddly squat, except what happens before or after. So really the only other thing is for Shepard to start freaking out about it. But Shepard's suppose to be a tough individual and it would be unbecoming if Shepard went into his cabin and hugged a teddy bear for hours on end.

It's like Shepard says he/she "Got better" and Shepard still has got a job to do so they're going to do it. Shepard can get post traumatic stress later if you want or maybe deals with it off-screen. And like I've said Shepard is trained soldier. That means they are a lot better at dealing with and handling death typically. Shepard kills people all the time. Most of those deaths don't disturb them greatly, why would his/her own be any different?

Modifié par Bluko, 26 février 2011 - 12:16 .


#32
KenKenpachi

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Aedan_Cousland wrote...

As an example, leadership in the US Marine Corps has two objectives:

1. Mission Accomplishment
2. Troop Welfare

One of the 14 traits that define a good combat leader according to the  US Marine Corps, is also loyalty. Note that loyalty refers not only to loyalty to country, Corps, or to superiors, but to subordinates. Loyalty goes both ways.

I'm using the US Marine Corps as example, but none of that is unique to the Corps. It is a hallmark of all Western militaries and their approach to combat leadership. The Alliance grew out of that tradition and would be no different.


Kinda why I don't think the Alliance would win against the Reapers. Say what you will about East Block Militaries, But North Korea is still here today, Russia burried the ****'s under its dead, and last I looked the US has no troops at all in Vietnam. 

Not that the US Army is much different though I'll tell yah some of those guys at Bragg in the GB's would have happily fought for the Kurds in Iraq if given the go ahead, and in the Paratrooper units (82nd AB Div)  we had a History and well a pride in fighting to the last man and holding out till relieved, in fact its a dissapointment NOT to jump into a combat zone lol. But as General James Gavin said, "Show me a man who will jump out of an airplane, and I'll show you a man who'll fight."

But on the topic s/he already is to an extent but if it went more I got $80 bucks that says this will look like the DA2 board.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 26 février 2011 - 12:19 .


#33
Aedan_Cousland

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Saphra Deden wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Shepard has concern for every member of his team, whether or not the players feel the same way for the character.


No, he doesn't always. He can be downright mean to some of them. He can even kill them.



He can kill a grand total of two squadmates, both of whom are refusing to follow orders. Shep can kill Wrex, who has a 'moment' of disloyalty because Saren is developing a cure to the genophage, and he can kill Zaeed for putting civilian lives at risk to get at Vito.

In either case Shep isn't killing them just for the lolz. He's killing them because they've become a liability to the mission. In Wrex's case, he's potentially dangerous to the rest of the squad.

#34
Seboist

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Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Shepard has concern for every member of his team, whether or not the players feel the same way for the character.


No, he doesn't always. He can be downright mean to some of them. He can even kill them.



He can kill a grand total of two squadmates, both of whom are refusing to follow orders. Shep can kill Wrex, who has a 'moment' of disloyalty because Saren is developing a cure to the genophage, and he can kill Zaeed for putting civilian lives at risk to get at Vito.

In either case Shep isn't killing them just for the lolz. He's killing them because they've become a liability to the mission. In Wrex's case, he's potentially dangerous to the rest of the squad.


I could never bring myself to kill those two no matter what kind of playthrough I was doing. They're my bros for life.

#35
Kim Shepard

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Diokletian600 wrote...

Or, assuming Shepard likes working for Cerberus, you do it because you got the mission and the intel from Cerberus. Being close to Liara undoubtedly adds more motivation to taking out the Shadow Broker, but I don't see it as a requirement.

This is a good reason too. I have quite a few Shepards who would only do it for that reason.

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

Shepard has concern for every member of his team, whether or not the players feel the same way for the character.


No, he doesn't always. He can be downright mean to some of them. He can even kill them.


He can kill a grand total of two squadmates, both of whom are refusing to follow orders. Shep can kill Wrex, who has a 'moment' of disloyalty because Saren is developing a cure to the genophage, and he can kill Zaeed for putting civilian lives at risk to get at Vito.

In either case Shep isn't killing them just for the lolz. He's killing them because they've become a liability to the mission. In Wrex's case, he's potentially dangerous to the rest of the squad.

Shepard can also kill Samara to recruit Morinth.

#36
Aedan_Cousland

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True, I forgot about Samara.

But if you kill her you are choosing Morinth as a squadmate over her.

#37
Ymladdych

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On the whole, I like the level of definition they have for him now.

As for LOTSB, I have to agree that as someone who came in on the PS3 version, they pushed the "Liara Connection" too far, though.  I had picked no romance interest for him in the comic, and he was romancing Jack for ME2, but he definitely had a "more than friends" googly-eyed vibe for Liara that I found *extremely* annoying.  Commraderie and closeness with Liara...okay, fine...hardcode away.  Acting like a pining schoolboy for her when he never romanced her?  No bueno.

The part that annoyed me the most was when the Shadow Broker hurtled two pieces of broken desk at the group, and who does Shepard dive to save?  Liara.  Jack, on the other hand, takes a ton of concrete to the chin while her man rolls across the floor with Liara, coming to a stop in the spoon position.  (Good luck on that shuttle-ride home, buddy.)

#38
Comrade Goby

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Shepard needs to add some Lean Body Mass. Get shredded. He is a little too puny right now.

Aside from that, it'd be nice to let us define his personality, but that never really lives to expectations.

#39
4yan3ric

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Are you kidding me? He doesn't need any more muscles. With all those upgrades he has he can punch out armored opponents with no harm. And besides, is Bioware really going to animate a dozen different people getting saved from a flying desk by Shepard? Much easier to have them get hit. But I Do love the snark of Shepard during the Car Chase and Battle Sequences. It fits perfectly.

#40
Moiaussi

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I think Shepard should just stand motionless for the entire game with no dialogue at all, so as not to disappoint those for whom Shepard wasn't perfect :)

That said, I would like it if there was more consistancy to his personality and if he didn't come across as a madman half the time. OMG! Reavers! Reavers are coming! Repent! REPENT!... er no.

#41
88mphSlayer

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i think it would be cool if you relived Shepard's pre-ME1 life-defining event that you chose when creating your character...

so a sole-survivor/war hero/etc. event that you relive would be cool, maybe even throw a bone to the people who chose earthborn when you visit earth

#42
android654

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Saphra Deden wrote...

I'd like more personality from Shepard, but I also want more control. For example I hate it when the office blows up and Shepard shouts, "Liara's in there!" Don't assume my Shepard is really close to her.


Well, close enough to help her out. If he didn't give a f**k why go through the trouble of helping her find the shadowbroker. A good way to show that thought would be having a different way of "talking" her down after killing the asari spectre.

#43
James2912

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What is it with the Japanese and school girl uniforms by the way? I never got that!

#44
Dean_the_Young

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I think Shepard could be outlined more without being character-restrictively defined. Except in so much that it might infringe on 'my Shepard's personal history' fantasy, giving history doesn't mean defining the character. When Shepard is the Butcher of Torfan, for example, that just gave what Shepard did, not what Shepard felt about it.

LotSB was flawed in that it blatantly defined our Shepards without our input (or approval). With a character-heavy DLC this was probably doomed, but it wasn't necessary.

Back story additions wouldn't have been impossible: biotic Shepard's could have been given a line about biotic training, tech experts about tech training, soldier-types about soldier training, etc. Giving Shepard more things to talk about that we know he/she did do.

Shepard should be given more opportunities to define him/herself by the player's inclinations. How about that as a compromise?

#45
Matterialize

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I think the moments where the -player- defines Shepard's personality should be emphasized more. There ARE times when it makes sense for Shepard to act a certain way regardless of the player's opinion, like snapping at Liara for backseat driving while flying through oncoming traffic - who wouldn't do that? And as for shouting "Liara's in there!" during LotSB, it doesn't necessarily have to be due to friendly or romantic concern for her well-being. Regardless of Shepard's motivations, he still doesn't want Liara killed - either for the sake of keeping a friend alive, or just to use her to get at the Shadow Broker's resources. She still needs to be alive either way, so yeah, her well being at that point should've been a concern for any player.

But those are risky, and Bioware has to be careful to leave them ambiguous enough to be interpreted in multiple ways. That's why it'd be better to just give more cinematic control to the player for those events, even if it's only through interrupts (perhaps instead of "Liara's in there!" a small renegade interrupt could just have Shepard say "Damn it!" with a matching frustrated squint as he takes off into the blown up office)

Also, sort of on topic but not directly related to ^that: They should really integrate DA2's dialog wheel icons into ME3's dialog system. Assigning mood/intent to lines of dialog would really help roleplayers steer their Shepards in the direction they want them to go... but I don't need to point that out, Bioware already knows.

#46
emmanuelsieyes

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The idea of a role playing game is that we get to have a chance to play Shepard as we want. If we get a pre-created character without any kind of dialogue options then we're just playing call of duty in space.

If we're going to discuss Shepard getting railroaded, let's talk about Cerberus. My Shepard was a sole survivor. I lost fifty people on Akuze because of Cerberus. I saw Kahoku's dead body in a Cerberus lab, riddled with needle marks. But yet, I'm just supposed to sit my ass down and get bossed around by the Illusive Man? I'm supposed to listen to his lackey run around in her underwear and question my every damn decision?

If we're going to talk about Shepard getting railroaded in LoTSB, let's talk about that conversation with Tela Vasir. I don't have a problem with characters calling me out for what I've done. I punched Al-Jilani, and Hackett called me out on that. I'm fine with that.

What really upset me is how I'm forced to listen to Tela Vasir call me out on working for Cerberus, when I have ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE to disagree! If I chose to work for Cerberus, fine, give me the not so different speech. The only reason why my sole survivor Shepard worked for Cerberus is because the plot forced me too.

Regarding Liara in LoTSB: LoTSB is not a 'character-heavy' DLC. LoTSB is about Liara. The Shadow Broker was something that came up because Bioware needed to bring Shepard back from the dead, which meant that someone needed to retrieve Shepard. They chose Liara to do this, because Liara generally gets used to advance the plot of the game.

With that in mind, LoTSB is going to be a Liara DLC. LoTSB is currently the most expensive DLC. I can understand wanting to have control over major story events (which is why i loathe the default ME2 Shepard). However, it's pretty clear that this DLC is going to be all about Liara. I mean, BioWare didn't bring back Ali Hillis so that Liara could have a few lines at the hotel, then show up after Shepard and whoever defeat the Shadow Broker.

I agree that forcing decisions on the player is never a good thing. This really does happen to much with Liara, and I think that BioWare forcing Liara on the player is not a good thing. The only thing it does is generate resentment towards the character. I think that most of the resentment towards Liara is because Shepard is railroaded into liking her. Hell, even I think that the pre-bossfight spooning was just a _little_ too much.

That said, I think BioWare was safe to assume that the people who bought LoTSB would be Liara fans, and therefore, it was okay to hardcode in 'Liara's in there!'

#47
naddaya

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emmanuelsieyes wrote...

The idea of a role playing game is that we get to have a chance to play Shepard as we want. If we get a pre-created character without any kind of dialogue options then we're just playing call of duty in space.

If we're going to discuss Shepard getting railroaded, let's talk about Cerberus. My Shepard was a sole survivor. I lost fifty people on Akuze because of Cerberus. I saw Kahoku's dead body in a Cerberus lab, riddled with needle marks. But yet, I'm just supposed to sit my ass down and get bossed around by the Illusive Man? I'm supposed to listen to his lackey run around in her underwear and question my every damn decision?

If we're going to talk about Shepard getting railroaded in LoTSB, let's talk about that conversation with Tela Vasir. I don't have a problem with characters calling me out for what I've done. I punched Al-Jilani, and Hackett called me out on that. I'm fine with that.

What really upset me is how I'm forced to listen to Tela Vasir call me out on working for Cerberus, when I have ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE to disagree! If I chose to work for Cerberus, fine, give me the not so different speech. The only reason why my sole survivor Shepard worked for Cerberus is because the plot forced me too.

Regarding Liara in LoTSB: LoTSB is not a 'character-heavy' DLC. LoTSB is about Liara. The Shadow Broker was something that came up because Bioware needed to bring Shepard back from the dead, which meant that someone needed to retrieve Shepard. They chose Liara to do this, because Liara generally gets used to advance the plot of the game.

With that in mind, LoTSB is going to be a Liara DLC. LoTSB is currently the most expensive DLC. I can understand wanting to have control over major story events (which is why i loathe the default ME2 Shepard). However, it's pretty clear that this DLC is going to be all about Liara. I mean, BioWare didn't bring back Ali Hillis so that Liara could have a few lines at the hotel, then show up after Shepard and whoever defeat the Shadow Broker.

I agree that forcing decisions on the player is never a good thing. This really does happen to much with Liara, and I think that BioWare forcing Liara on the player is not a good thing. The only thing it does is generate resentment towards the character. I think that most of the resentment towards Liara is because Shepard is railroaded into liking her. Hell, even I think that the pre-bossfight spooning was just a _little_ too much.

That said, I think BioWare was safe to assume that the people who bought LoTSB would be Liara fans, and therefore, it was okay to hardcode in 'Liara's in there!'


Same here. Shepard killed a reaper, don't tell me he wouldn't be able to knock Miranda and Jacob off, take that goddamn shuttle to the nearest spaceport and get to the citadel. Instead, here we go, becoming TIM's errand boy. Great.

#48
Raanz

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I think it's a good mix.

#49
JamieCOTC

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BroShep to Council: Oops, I think we lost the channel.
femShep to Council: Go to hell.

BroShep to TIM: You the man!
femShep to TIM: *sigh* My hero.

#50
YamiSnuffles

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Shepard is predefined to some extent. I accept that but I don't want more of it. There are points in both ME2 and LotSB that I would have liked different options. Even if you hate Liara, I think it's fine to have Shepard care whether or not she's been blown up. If you are just helping her for Cerberus or to get intel or whatever, you still need Liara and the information she holds. Beyond that, though, Shepard's feelings on Liara should be player defined. Does she only care that Liara survives so she can have a useful ally? Does she care about her as a friend? Or does she care a lot about her as a really close friend/lover? My mainShep would have no problem comforting and being nice to Liara. She would never, however, jump to save Liara instead of Garrus when fighting the Shadow Broke. I think it would have been much better in that scene if everyone had jumped separately and your second squaddie just happened to be the one knocked out. Not that they get knocked out because you need to leap at Liara for some reason.

So yes, LotSB got some stuff wrong, but it also got some stuff very right. While I might not have been able to choose how I felt about Liara, I did get to choose how my Shepard felt about this whole crazy war and what she was fighting for. I'd love to be able to express more of Shepard's feelings in that way in ME3.

I suppose I'm just repeating others when I say, tone down the predefined moments and up opportunities for us to define how Shepard feels.