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Did people really say to be shorter and have more dlc?


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#101
bsbcaer

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LoK-y-Yo wrote...

 What was my surprise to read in an interview in which Fernando Melo, productor, said DA2 was shorter because the first one was too long and there were lots of players which couldn't even finish it (or was it because in consoles, the controller was unnapeal as far as i've been reading and told and people drop it?). Which makes me wonder, did the Pc players had problem finishing it? How long is the game without making any secondary quest? 30-40 hours?

Anyway, I was even more surprised that he said that they realiced that the game had to be shorter so players could finish it, but had to have more dlc to extend the history of Hawke (so more than with the warden). Isn't this contradictory?People want it to be shorter but because it is shorter, people wants to pay more dlc to lenght the duration of the game? so at the end, the game, which is shorter, has the same price (and in Spain, which is a problem of ours, there is no "free competence" so every where the game cost the same, 49-50€, unlike UK), but we will have more dlcs, and I DID buy some of them, which though short, were enjoyable, but a little short in the quality-price relation.

So, I'd like to see really how many people did complain about this. Are they more than the people who did finish it?



EDIT: Please, THIS IS NOT for people to complain and through grudges, or to be the "smartone" .   Be mature enaugh and make positive or constructive arguments, regardless your opinion.


Based on the information they received from the players, there were a significant amount of players who did not play the game for more than 1 or 2 hours (they received this information if you played the game while connected to the internet and did not turn the online information collector off).  Based on that information, they chose to to make a more focused story.  So, it wasn't really people complaining "oh god, this is too short" or "oh god, this is too long", but rather they looked at the numbers they collected and made a decision. 

#102
Drowsy0106

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Efienutyalorh wrote...

This is probably going to be very dry, but, to answer the Original Post and thread topic, it's a highly likely yes. If you do find my musings too terrible, just skip to the point where it says "My elaboration of my answer to the OP"

This will probably not be the first time it has been said, but in this article by IGN it quoted Bioware that only 50% people completed Commander Shepard's mission to stop the Collectors. From the posts before me in this thread, I get the general sentiment that some find ME2 to already be a shorter game. The inference, while may seem to be wild, highlights the fact that there is a huge change in gaming patterns.

The article by IGN highlights the thoughts and opinions of the author, who offers some pretty refreshing insight and explanations for the shifts in gaming attitude and behavior. For those of you who are older, you can and may remember older game titles that required you to devote hundreds of hours to fully experience the game.

Unfortunately, that was a time where it was (arguably) viewed that playing and interacting with a virtual scenario on a computer was a terrible dark secret that was happily linked to violence, death and destruction. I'm probably making a sweeping statement here, but for those of you who have played games almost religiously in the 80's to late 90's, you cannot forget the scorn that is generally directed towards people who dedicated hours to explore a rich virtual world that was the product of a development team's imagination.

From here on, it's mostly my personal opinion, but I feel the shift really started with the advent of Infocomm Technology, especially the Internet. Taking the world by storm, free-to-play MMOs were suddenly the rage. Following many milestones later, all of a sudden gaming was suddenly divided into 'casual', and 'hardcore'. The penny arcade has had a descendant; those who used to pass time at the arcades just for fun have suddenly taken up the keyboard, mouse and controller to play a game. For some, they play it just for the story. Others, just because it seems fun ('arcade' genres where there is no clear start or end). Both of this groups however, exhibit the same traits: they'll share their war stories, laugh a little over an obvious easter egg or major major glitch and/or bug here or there, but never really saw the need to explore the game or to take it up a notch and go online and pit their pride and skills against other players. Unfortunately, the former happened to cross back into a very very delicate genre: RPGs.

I'm going back a little, to a game I remember dedicating time to master the mechanics of it: Neverwinter Nights. This was a game that I revisited every now and then, and when the urge strike, even completed it from head to tail inclusive of 2 of it's expansions. The hours I dedicated to would probably have been better well spent on books according to everyone else but me, but I sure as hell enjoyed myself terrifically, immersing myself in Neverwinter lore and it's world.

(Un)Fortunately, casual gamers came along. They don't want to have to think to how to build a character so that it can contribute to killing something. They just need to know that pushing A means attacking the monster and pushing B means quaffing a potion. It's probably not that extreme for most cases, but the fact still remains that there is now That end of the spectrum. They are the ones who would probably complete a game, and just go, oh good story, and keep it in the collections drawer. They wouldn't be the ones who go, alright, time to up the difficulty another notch for round 2.

That is, if they ever wrapped their head around the idea that you sometimes Must pause the combat to strategise, and not only to quaff potions. ('fess up, how many of you did just that and only that on normal difficulty of DAO and DAOA?) The adventure in the Fade at the Mage Tower to me was nothing more than something terrrifically fun part of the game. In fact, on all my playthroughs, that was the part I looked forward most to. To me, the complexity was nothing more than just needing to go through paths we once took, but only after we've gained more powers to confront old challenges. (hur hur hur at the stab at life.) Unfortunately, and I probably can somewhat empathis with this notion, it was just too damned annoying to need to do such things, especially when the bonus rewards were "only a couple more stat points" for fully exploring every nook and cranny in the Fade.

My elaboration of my answer to the OP
I myself completed the game a few times through, and if I found it too long, I'll say no, but they could have scaled back a bit on the main storyline length so that it'll be 'long' and not 'too long', but only if they included more sideline goodies to keep gameplay hours about the same. However, I am probably one of the few minorities who feel that way. The reality remains that there are many players who had given up because the game was too damned long, or completed the game just for the storyline and still found it too damned long; it's the Bell Curve at work on the spectrum. (though on the forums, I think we are the majority. DAO has supposedly millions of sales. Do we see millions of forum users being active?)

To quote, "Game companies like Bioware may be tracking whether or not you complete a game for internal use, but you can be sure the accounting department couldn't care less if you saw the ending credits." -  Levi Buchanan in "Why Don't We Finish More Video Games?"


Marry me :wub:

#103
Darkeus

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Derax wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

I have said this a couple of times, the game is supposed to be about 50 hours long. That is not short by any means.

I really would not be worried that the game is going to be short.

And where did this opinion that ME2 is short come from?  That game took me 40 - 50 hours to complete with my first playthrough.....



For (PC-) RPG it is short (average is 60 hours) for normal games, and if you happen to play console games it is long duration.....


Eh, I have played many, many RPG's on console and PC and 50 hours is a pretty good clip of time.  To be honest, I love long games but sometimes I do not have time to play 100 hour games!  :happy:

Also, length of game is subject to opinion  since people play differently and so some take longer or shorter to play.  If you are like me, you probably take longer to play games since I tend to try to explore EVERYTHING.

I mean, we are not talking about Bulletstorm or CoD: Black Ops here with their 6 hour single-player campaigns.

Again, length of DA2 is the least of my concerns....

#104
The Spirit of Dance

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finished the game around 15 times dont remember the exact number

#105
JamesX

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Fairly sure of the 3.2 million copies sold, majority of those people finished.

#106
bsbcaer

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JamesX wrote...

Fairly sure of the 3.2 million copies sold, majority of those people finished.


I don't have the statistics in front of me, nor do I feel like going through many many threads to find the dev posts that back me up, but actually no...A significant chunk failed to really play the game past about 2 hours...

You have to remember that the people on this board tend to make up the minority, rather than majority of players...

#107
Funkjoker

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Krytheos wrote...

 Just for clarification purposes, here are two direct quotes from the interview he is talking about, though I don't see why one couldn't have posted in that thread: 

TGL: How long will the main game take to complete by comparison to Origins?

FM: It’s a little bit less, I would say. Focus is the biggest thing. With Origins we had some feedback that suggested that it was probably a bit too long; a lot of people didn’t actually finish it. And that’s not a great place to be in. It’s a good thing to have lots to do but maybe we went a bit too far. So it’s probably comparable to say Mass Effect 2, maybe a little bit bigger than that. But again it’s very hard to pin it down because you can just do the core quests and advance through in X amount of time. If you’re a completion-ist, where you want to complete everything in an area before you advance forward, it’ll probably be double that time. Most players usually end up somewhere in the middle. It’s actually very hard to pin that down but if you think of it as a little bit bigger than Mass Effect 2 then you’re probably in the right direction.


 TGL: What about Hawke: The College Years DLC?

FM: Not quite! I think that’s actually one of the nice things that we learned a lot from Origins, was the feedback in terms of DLC and what people liked and what they didn’t. Two key things are we definitely need more content. Regardless of what they liked or didn’t like, everyone thought there wasn’t enough stuff so that’s something that we’re working on. The other one is that our overwhelmingly most successful DLC’s were the ones that continued the story of the Warden. So all the DLC that we are thinking about right now are pretty much a continuation of the story of Hawke and also the followers. That was a big thing that I think we missed on a couple of the Origin DLCs. We did a lot of experimentation on purpose with Origins because we hadn’t done anything to that scope. Mass Effect 1 was the only other title that we’d done for consoles and the DLC there was quite limited. So we wanted to understand what people wanted so we tried lots of different things. Now I think we have a much better understanding of what kinds of content people really want and the direction we’re heading in. How many it ends up being is again reactive. Let’s start with making a successful game and then we’ll figure that part out.



In case anyone was interested in the full interview, if you didn't read the original thread this is based on...

Voila

But yes, this is already a thread here. I think so anyways. Correct me if I am wrong. 

Edit: Fixed the quotes. Stupid me.




It's unbelievable. DAO was a unfinished Masterpiece (support is on hold for fixing bugs etc.) 

NOW they throw out shorter games but stick with those stupid DLCs?!?!

No way I'm gonna support this. I can wait until a new DAO arrives. As a hardcore RPGplayer I feel very insulted by all this work of dumbing down, shorter game, dlc, stupid consol- and masseffectifying DAO.

Remember that DA2 comes from the consoles, that's why DA2 is a PCfail and DAO is NOT, apart from the broken 1.03 and 1.04 patches.

Modifié par Jean-Funk Van Damme, 25 février 2011 - 03:59 .


#108
errant_knight

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Maria Caliban wrote...

LoK-y-Yo wrote...

Which makes me wonder, did the Pc players had problem finishing it?

The majority of players on all platforms never finished the game.


How long is the game without making any secondary quest? 30-40 hours?

50 hours.


Anyway, I was even more surprised that he said that they realiced that the game had to be shorter so players could finish it, but had to have more dlc to extend the history of Hawke (so more than with the warden). Isn't this contradictory?

No. Many people don't want to spend 80+ hours to finish a story. However, when people *do finish,* they tend to like DLC because it lets them do more with the character they've come to enjoy.

Think of it this way:

The Harry Potter series is wildly popular. There are seven books that range from 77k-202k words in length.

Imagine that instead of releasing seven books, the publisher had released a single book that was 1,413,000 words long. How many people would buy that book and finish it?

I'm not sure this argument works since the Potter books are much longer than the average children's book, proving that people do still have attention spans.

#109
Seladen

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Where do they get their numbers of how many finished the game or not?

If they are using this site to get them then its most likely not accurate at all. I have finished the game around 10 times and only one of my characters has actually uploaded to this site passed a lvl 8 or so.

Modifié par Seladen, 25 février 2011 - 04:06 .


#110
Guest_Kordaris_*

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Dragon Age was too short for me.

#111
LoK-y-Yo

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Thanks for all your responses, specially Efienutyalorh with that wonderful and detailed post.

As everybody in this forum does I would like a developer response,but I am satisfied right now. It is nice to see some people cares about BW games and that it is posible to discuss in these forums without falling in a spiral of trolling (lol)..



So, once again, thanks you. If you are gonna carry on with it, just remember this wan't a trolling thread ;)

#112
RiverLucky

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MrStorm2K wrote...

This has been an issue that game developers have been wrestling with for a while. As consumers are becoming more and more of the adult population, they have things to do and places to be. Naturally, a 50 hour RPG is asking a lot from them when they can complete most games in 8-12 hours. As a result, many gamers get fatigued of playing the same game for long periods and just quit and move on.

I'd imagine few people on the boards are going to complain about this, considering the audience. But this is an industry-wide issue, and it's why you're seeing so many publishers push for smaller single-player modes and more multiplayer modes. Essentially, the single player epic is quickly becoming a niche product that doesn't return on the money invested in it.

Take that as a sign of the apocalypse or not, but it's the way things are. And unfortunately, I don't believe they'll be changing any time soon.


Ok. Fine make the game shorter. Please reflect that in the price you are going to charge for it.

8-12 hour game should not cost as much as a 40-50 hour game.

8-12 = $25.

40-50 = $50.

#113
Roachbugg

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1 a full origins play through for me on normal took me 62 hours with all the quest and such complete. Awakening took me 20 hours or something like that then the other dlcs were a few hours a piece so in all i probably spent 90 to 100 hours on dragon age.

My longest play through was my archer rouge on nightmare witch was 132 hours i think counting awakening BTW. was well worth the effort. But not many people can put that kind of time into a game tis understandable. But I'm somewhat of a basement dwelling Quasimodo type so..............

But i digress i do also enjoy a shorter RPG like mass effect 2 so the length is a non issue for me but i hate when i get a game like call of duty for instance and finish the story in a day then just have repetitive multilplayer over and over and over and over until i can get another game.



*god i let my self ramble there didnt I?*

Modifié par Roachbugg, 25 février 2011 - 04:22 .


#114
Efienutyalorh

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Seladen wrote...

Where do they get their numbers of how many finished the game or not?

If they are using this site to get them then its most likely not accurate at all. I have finished the game around 10 times and only one of my characters has actually uploaded to this site passed a lvl 8 or so.


Well you'll be pretty surprised, but for PC it is really easy, for as long as you are playing the game connected to the internet, it is pretty easy to get the information, especially so when some of us here have blissfully bought CE editions or other special editions/ DLCs that request us to be connected to the internet to validify particular game content. While some people might find this controversiol, BW can actually collect 'misc.' information. (the legalities are abit complicated, but it isn't a real breach of privacy if all they did was collected information that you have completed particular quests. Unless you're fiercely protective then once again, legalities and subjectivity were always two different things.)

If someone would troll the terms and conditions that we all happily hit page down followed by agree, maybe there is a section that we agreed to not hold them accountable for collecting misc. information, etc. when the final cutscene has been activated, Bioware servers are pinged that that serial key has completed the game. How true this is, well, depends on how much you're willing to research, and to what extent. (Please don't hack into bioware servers just to monitor their traffic. No seriously, to anyone who is coming up with such an idea, don't. Be more constructive like making more dragon age mods :D *selfish reasoning*)

So regardless of whether you did upload your toon or not, it is possible that yes they can get enough data to do a (relatively) thorough statistical analysis.

#115
The Spirit of Dance

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personally i thought origins could have been longer, when i first bought the game i had hoped to waste 100+ hours of my life on one playthrough. sadly it only takes me about 44 hours to beat the game including sidequests.

#116
Melduran

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Im humored by the fact the price tag on this game is 60dollars thats more then I can say for any standard issue release game I've ever seen. And then Bioware says pre-ordered customers will get this additional "FREE" DLC. how is that free? I guess its a good thing I like Bioware products or I would be completely put off by this, not to mention 60 bones doesnt even get me all the DLC bringing the total to around 70dollars.

#117
Skilled Seeker

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I don't mind the main quest length being shorter, but I want the optional side quests to make up for it. I want 100% completition to take the same amount of time. Just transfer some of the length of main quests into more side quests.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 25 février 2011 - 04:55 .


#118
Splindicator

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I don't play many rpgs, but I play pretty much all of the Bioware ones.  ME was my first console one, and I haven't switched back to PC except for the rare exclusive like Starcraft2.  I decided on the PS3 version for DA:O and it was one of the clunkiest, ugliest things I've ever seen for this "current gen" of consoles.

To be honest, I almost fell into that DNF category after about 3 hours of play.  Not because I didn't think I had the time to play, though that is a concern, but because it was such a step back in smoothness, visual quality, overall interaction with the interface and generally just hard to "get in to."  Mind you, I'm only basing this off the PS3 version.

However, it started to get interesting around Ostegar and I kind of trudged through to the Morrigan scene.  Eventually, I fell in love with the game and realized how many things had been stripped out of ME2 comparitively.  After a while, I started thinking how nice some of the game actually looked and really luved playing it.  By the end, I think it's one of the best games I've played despite its shortcummings.  Played twice 40+ each time.  I even bought most of the DLCs and am playing Awakening now to make sure I covered DA:O.

All I'm really saying is, this game was easy to lose people's interest in the first 3-6 hours if they aren't RPGers to begin with.  I don't think it had much to do with total length, but if you are interested in something, you generally will keep doing it...whatever it is.  For some people, this just isn't their type of game.  You can't force an FPS player to luv an RPG by making it shorter.  People will spend years playing COD, HALO, CounterStrike....YEARS, and the same maps over and over.  Yes, it's more like a sport, but to say they don't have time?  It's not about having it, it's about desire to spend it. 

Also, all decisions are based on money.

#119
VanDraegon

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I certainly don't recall anyone complaining that Origins was too long. They complained about just about everthing else though. I thought the length was great personally. The longer the better, imo.

Modifié par VanDraegon, 25 février 2011 - 06:49 .


#120
Alyzabeth

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My latest playthrough of DA:O, I beat the game in 35 hours after doing ALL sidequests.

#121
rak72

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If people stopped playing the game after 2 hrs, it's because they didn't like the game, not because it was too long. I have no idea how long an ME 2 run would take me because I stopped playing THAT game after 2 hrs. I thought it was pure suckage, and I wanted that 2hrs of my life back.

#122
Morning808

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I finished it..lost count after 4

#123
rak72

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Skilled Seeker wrote...

I don't mind the main quest length being shorter, but I want the optional side quests to make up for it. I want 100% completition to take the same amount of time. Just transfer some of the length of main quests into more side quests.

This

#124
Boombear

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rak72 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

I don't mind the main quest length being shorter, but I want the optional side quests to make up for it. I want 100% completition to take the same amount of time. Just transfer some of the length of main quests into more side quests.

This


Yup. Or if they want the game more accessible why not release free DLC's to bring the content to the same length? DA:O could have benefitted from having more important side quests instead of so many main quests. Perhaps Redcliffe could have been looked at as the main objective and the treaties were more side quests? (Yes I know the treaties were not required but until I got the achievement for completing them all I didn't know that). 

If Bioware (or EA) doesn't want to release free DLC or more side quests they should at least have a better value for the DLC's. Compared to the main game (in terms of playtime) the DLC's were way more expensive. I'd rather have 2-3 DLS's worth of content released as a $20 expansion.

#125
AkiKishi

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Drowsy0106 wrote...
snip-

 That was a very worthwhile read.