134 réponses à ce sujet

[XBenotto18]

 

Modifié par XBenotto18, 26 février 2011 - 06:34 .

[Anathemic]

XBenotto18 wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

XBenotto18 wrote...
So their has to be a story(lore) already to like them?

For me? Yes.

Know matter what, the character sucks without a backstory, instead of just moving forward and making one? Just because hes voiced?

No, that's not what I meant. Take the game DA:O, I immersed myself perfectly without the voice because I was intirgued by the immersion it offered.

A voiced PC with no backstory to go upon to set up a decent liking to said PC feels like its "pulling me" to go throughout it's story.

It's a personal preference.

[AtreiyaN7]

Anathemic wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I expressed my opinion about what worked for me. That hardly requires "proof" unless I was trying to pick the OPs post apart, which I wasn't doing. But that aside, please don't make me laugh by bringing up Redcliffe and one of the few times the Warden actually does something. 

For the most part, in conversations (which is what I am referring to when I call the Warden wooden and expressionless) the Warden amounts to a robotic mute. I'm pretty damned sure that it wasn't my imagination that when I chatted Alistair up to romance him, my Warden basically just stood there and blinked every so often (mostly). No smile, no change in expression - nothing. Oh, and the surprise break up? Alistair looked and sounded far more upset than my Warden did.

Reasonable.

I brought up the Redcliffe scenario for it brings up an entertaining moment. For me a voiced PC is fine as long as there is some good standing lore/backstory to the PC. DA2's Hawke is not the case (unless you count the knowledge of what happens to the PC at the end of his/her story backstory), I've no knowledge of Hawke and frankly I'm not really interested in him/her that much. And to add to it the character is voiced to what I feel "pull me forward" on a story I didn't really want to travel into.

Going back to DA:O, I foudn the silent protagonist perfect for immersion/roleplaying purposes. I wasn't interested in the Warden at first, but having the Warden voiceless I was intrigued by the lure of making the Warden my own character.

I've done that for a very long time with many, many voiceless protagonists over the last two decades or so, and I've enjoyed it as well for similar reasons. However, now that the characters that I talk to seem more lifelike than my protagonist in modern games, it's a bit jarring to have to behave like a silent spectator with my character. I can imagine anything I want with the Warden, but I can't actually voice her frustrations or hear her anger/sadness/whatever else - and that causes a bit of an emotional disconnect for me.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 26 février 2011 - 06:40 .

[Darkeus]

Anathemic wrote...



And hence why I'm not completely sold on the game yet?

You do see that this is a two-way street? If a RPG game doesn't intrigue me in the immersion factor, I have a hard time wanting to get it. This is not the game's fault, but the direction it's currently taking doesn't appeal to me specifically.

Ah, but it is you opinion whether DA2 achieves this or not.  And since the full game is out, it is really hard to say if you will be immersed or not. 

But again, it is simply your opinion, not something that must be done for you.

You must miss out on a lot of games, since most of them do not try their hardest to be immersive. 

Also, most games are about a certain character, including your favorite game.   Most people do not immerse themselves into games like that, or particularly care about that at all.  Some just want to play a great game.  What a great game is is totally up to your own preferences.

But just because a game does not meet your preference does not mean you need to keep repeating how much the game does not meet your expectations.  You don't like the changes, great.  You can move on now, I am sure we all know your opinion by now....

[XBenotto18]

bobobo878 wrote...


Anyone want to guess how many more pages this one will go on for?

Anathemic will continue until no survivers, so like 11 pages

To be on topic: Anathemic, most of the consumers in the market likes it. Their going to create a characters story without caring if the character has one to begin with. Because thats what counts in the game. But still your opinion is yours. Just dont say their doing something wrong because you personaly dont like it

Modifié par XBenotto18, 26 février 2011 - 06:46 .

[Anathemic]

Darkeus wrote...

Anathemic wrote...



And hence why I'm not completely sold on the game yet?

You do see that this is a two-way street? If a RPG game doesn't intrigue me in the immersion factor, I have a hard time wanting to get it. This is not the game's fault, but the direction it's currently taking doesn't appeal to me specifically.

Ah, but it is you opinion whether DA2 achieves this or not.  And since the full game is out, it is really hard to say if you will be immersed or not. 

But again, it is simply your opinion, not something that must be done for you.

You must miss out on a lot of games, since most of them do not try their hardest to be immersive. 

Also, most games are about a certain character, including your favorite game.   Most people do not immerse themselves into games like that, or particularly care about that at all.  Some just want to play a great game.  What a great game is is totally up to your own preferences.

But just because a game does not meet your preference does not mean you need to keep repeating how much the game does not meet your expectations.  You don't like the changes, great.  You can move on now, I am sure we all know your opinion by now....

Yes I do miss out on games, but I have this knack for sticking with games for a long time. I still play Oblivion (modded of course) a few times every 1-2 weeks. So if I'm going to stick to a game, it atleast better me to my liking.

And I do know most games revolve around a certain character, my philosophy on this is: if the character is predetermined it better have a backstory/lore for me to look up.

[White_Buffalo94]

Lennonkun wrote...

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

the darkspawn look like that because maybe that is how Varric imagines Darkspawn. Hell, maybe that is why Flemeth looks way different than she did in Origins if it isn't because she just changed forms. It is all told through Varric, and thus things we think are set in stone are subject to his imagination.

I predict the game to flop horribly and soon the excuse will be "It's Varrics story telling that makes the bad gameplay!" and then "Varric said..." will become some retconning trope.

Seriously, using the excuse of "Varric" is 100% bull. I would prefer they just deux ex machinaed this crap, not actually tried to make sense of it, because clearly it doesn't.

How doesn't it make sense? What I mentioned can make perfect sense. He never saw Flemeth. As far as we know, he never saw darkspawn. We know he only knows what he experienced with Hawke, nothing more, perhaps less if his imagination takes hold.
Ex: When you think of a dog, do you think of a poodle? A doberman? An akita? I for one think of a great dane. Now the point of this is to point out that unless there is a set look for something that everyone takes as fact, such as a darkspawn's looks IF the people have seen it, then everyone imagines a different look.

[Melness]

Anathemic wrote...

Melness wrote...

Anathemic wrote...

Hawke doesn't have this (unless you count what Hawke becomes in the future a 'backstory').

The premise is defining who your character is.

Isn't that one of the sacred cows of western RPG?

Besides, Immersion is a 2 party process and most of the work is done by the player.

True, but aside from past experiences, there's also the aspect of the consumer to take into account. If the consumer finds the product unappealing, then why should consumer buy it?

If you found the product unappealing, it is not for the reasons you've described. Because then Hawke is as unappealing to you as any other character you've ever created.

Just add details to your Hawke's default backstory that somehow may define future decisions or personality. Much like customizing the backstory of your BG character.

[Lennonkun]

Darkeus wrote...

Ah, but it is you opinion whether DA2 achieves this or not.  And since the full game is out, it is really hard to say if you will be immersed or not. 

If the story has no hook, which DA2 doesn't, then what possible hope is there for immersion if you simply do not care? What do I care if Bethany dies? Shes cute I suppose, and shes supposed to be my sister... but she dies immediately. I could see killing her off maybe after you have atleast had a few discussions, gotten some understanding of who she is as a person, but no that doesn't happen .She is just mindless NPC #1 to die. You can't create that "immersion" if there is nothing to go off of.

[Maria Caliban]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

i love that most ppl on these forums now are a bunch of douche bags

I rather wish they'd never released the demo.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 février 2011 - 06:46 .

[John Epler]

Folks, let me remind you that simply disagreeing with someone's opinion doesn't make them a troll. Let's try to avoid throwing that word around so cavalierly.



As to the topic at hand - different people are going to find different things immersive. I can play one game from a developer, find myself completely unimmersed, and then play the next game from that same developer and realize I've just spent ten hours playing because I was so involved in the game world.



And different people get immersed in different ways. For some, it's graphical. For others, it's the story. For me, it's generally a combination of audio and story - I can deal with average graphics if the sound is good, and if the story is good.



Let's try to avoid suggesting that there's any 'right' way for a game to be immersive and understand we all have our own unique tastes.

[Lennonkun]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I rather wish they'd never released the demo.

On the plus side it's saved a lot of people some money.

[PrinceOfFallout13]

Lennonkun wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
I rather wish they'd never released the demo.

On the plus side it's saved a lot of people some money.

and gained bioware more customers

[Melness]

Lennonkun wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
I rather wish they'd never released the demo.

On the plus side it's saved a lot of people some money.

I say those people shouldn't have judged the game from a buggy, limited and overly cut version of the final build.

[slimgrin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I rather wish they'd never released the demo.

Bioware may end up wishing this as well.

[Lennonkun]

Melness wrote...
I say those people shouldn't have judged the game from a buggy, limited and overly cut version of the final build.

To which I say why even bother releasing a supposed "old build" as a demo after the game had already gone gold then? The logic is missing but any change between the demo and final version will be minimal at best and certainly will not fix the heap of issues PC gamers have with it.

Modifié par Lennonkun, 26 février 2011 - 06:51 .

[Maria Caliban]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

As far as we know, he never saw darkspawn.

If you take him with you into the Deep Roads, you'll fight darkspawn with him. As Varric can know what darkspawn are later in the game (but earlier in the timeline), then he must know what they look like earlier in the game (but later inthe timeline.)

[Melness]

Lennonkun wrote...

Melness wrote...
I say those people shouldn't have judged the game from a buggy, limited and overly cut version of the final build.

To which I say why even bother releasing a supposed "old build" as a demo after the game had already gone gold then? The logic is missing but any change between the demo and final version will be minimal at best and certainly will not fix the heap of issues PC gamers have with it.

I'm not saying that all the bugs will be fixed, but I've seldom seen a game that had all of its bugs fixed. Besides that, we're receiving daily reasurrances on quality of life issues - no worse bug can possibly be observed in this demo... it doesn't even have inventory.

[Dangerfoot]

Lennonkun wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
I rather wish they'd never released the demo.

On the plus side it's saved a lot of people some money.

Assuming that anyone who comes on a forum to tell everyone they're not buying something is actually going to stick to their guns. I used to frequent WoW forums, and "I quit" threads are hardly ever final. People just want to make a big stink before they are "forced" to buy the game.

[Sereaph502]

Lennonkun wrote...
If the story has no hook, which DA2 doesn't,

Which is still your opinion.  Please stop confusing your own opinion for fact.

Let's say you absolutely hate the mass effect series, yet I absolutely adore it.  You say that the story is boring and has no drive to it.  I say the story is great and kept me at the edge of my seat.

Am I wrong?  You can't prove I'm wrong, because there no facts to it.  There are no facts to whether or not DA2's story has a hook to it or not: It depends on the person.

Some people like Sci-Fi; some people don't.  Are the people who don't wrong?

[graylshaped]

Lawrence- Mage of the Grey Wardens wrote...

The voice-acting in the demo isn't awesome at all really, to be honest.

• Agree

I don't understand all the "Doh! I had to read and it sucked really bad" reactions to DAO.

• Agree

The fact that I didn't hear someone speaking for me only helped me get into the game. I liked that I could make the Warden a facsimile of myself. It was awesome for me.

• Nods head vigorously

The main thing that killed the demo for me in terms of immersion was that I didn't get the impression that I was gonna like any of the characters that were shown.

• Which DA:O characters were likeable on first meeting?

-Don't like the chick that Varric is narrating to.

• Which elements of the Chantry were likeable in DA:O?  Pretty sure she's not supposed to be seen as your buddy at this stage, if ever.  Quite likely she's a non-misogynistic version of an Inquistor.  I'd steer clear, myself.

-Was sooooo glad when whiny templar guy was killed.

• The emotion his whining and spinelessness was likely intended to evoke, though he took his fate selflessly and with grace

-Didn't like the butch man-wife warrior.

• Sten wasn't likeable early on, either.  Or ever, for that matter.  I suspect Aveline has positive quirks more numerous than cookie-love, though

-The sister had potential but she got killed.

• Only if you played as a mage

-Carver should have died instead.

• He did, unless you played as a mage

-Hawke said "My sister just died but at least dad will have someone to chill with." Really?

• I didn't choose that option. Avoid it next time around.

Edit:--Forgot to mention pirate-lady:

-My Hawke will definitely not be sleeping with the ****ty pirate. He might get a disease...

• Response 1) Unlike in Fable, you'll never know about it
• Response 2) And how was your relationship with Zevran?

Yeah, the characters are the biggest turnoff.

• Dragon Age has been pretty good about giving us characters whose first impression isn't the best one to go by.  May want to withold judgment there.

Modifié par graylshaped, 26 février 2011 - 06:59 .

[Lennonkun]

Sereaph502 wrote...

Lennonkun wrote...
If the story has no hook, which DA2 doesn't,

Which is still your opinion.  Please stop confusing your own opinion for fact.

Let's say you absolutely hate the mass effect series, yet I absolutely adore it.  You say that the story is boring and has no drive to it.  I say the story is great and kept me at the edge of my seat.

Am I wrong?  You can't prove I'm wrong, because there no facts to it.  There are no facts to whether or not DA2's story has a hook to it or not: It depends on the person.

Some people like Sci-Fi; some people don't.  Are the people who don't wrong?

Please tell me the hook of DA2.

It's somewhere in the tutorial... somewhere... please find it for me.

Also I actually really enjoyed ME1 and 2, the hook for ME2 in particular I think is fantastic.

[Erika T]

Not sure if anyone said this before, apologies if someone has -



someone asked what changed? well almost everything??? combat is one thing I like (although I do not understand why my mage moves around so much - all those ninja like moves look cool but not natural).



But look at the inventory screen for example - in DAO it was beautiful, medieval style, with delivcate "carvings", so pretty. Same with the levelling up screen. now its just bland. The music - it stops halfway through combat (hope its just the demo) - and its more futuristic than DAO was, even though DAO plays in the same age as DA2. The hairstyles (Hawke) look like they just came out of daniel galvin's salon, not medieval england, on which ferelden is supposed to be based. The maps used to be delicately detailed, not the bland grey lines that kirkwall was. the clothes also -bethany and hawke are not like poor impoverished hiding apostates from lothering look! So it does feel like "just a game" and not "dragon age world" to me.



I hope I get used to it and learn to love it because right now I dont.



And I still hate the dialogue wheel of course. I dont understand why they couldnt use the old DA system (lines on screen) AND do a voiced character, even if its a repetition. Bettr than this, you not knowing what your character will say. Again, I hope this grows on me.



To say some positives too, The combat I actually really like, I love how flemeth fits in with DAO and her look - puts DAO flemeth encounter into a different perspective and if they keep this up throughout the game this is one thing i will really enjoy. I dont like isabela at all - she just doesnt look ok to be with all those big open boobs - sorry, she was probably created for the guys, bethany is much nicer looking.



and whats with the blood on hawkes face? i do hope it doesnt have to be there throughout the game (maybe it isnt?)



So I agree that the rpg immersion has dropped a bit which for me is sad. but the redeeming feature in my book is that on easy difficulty it seems to win combat on autofight, so i can still concentrate on rpg elements.

[Sereaph502]

Lennonkun wrote...
Please tell me the hook of DA2.

It's somewhere in the tutorial... somewhere... please find it for me.

Also I actually really enjoyed ME1 and 2, the hook for ME2 in particular I think is fantastic.

Sure, completely ignore everything I said because you know you'd have to agree with me in some way.  We're done talking, because it's obvious what you're thinking.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

To OP:

1. Character creation is locked.
2. Inventory is locked.
3. Some skills are locked.
4. Pre rendered cutscene after Varric-Cassandra second conversation.
5. Unbalance audio volume.
6. Some cutscenes, events, dialogues and choices are cut.

This is demo. It's meant to show player about combat mechanism. None of us have any idea how deep the story is going to be.... yet.