136 réponses à ce sujet

[Dorian the Monk of Sune]

The hypocrisy is what bothers me. How can you have the nerve to say that this game is in any way strategic when you allow the bombing of your own tanks in every level but nightmare?

[tonnactus]

Matheau wrote...

Personally, I don't really like the idea of friendly fire. I never really found it adds much of a challenge. Generally, it just gives more incentive to develop non-friendly fire spells and ignore the ones that are going to do significant amounts of harm, especially in a game where a large percentage of enemies are likely to rush into melee range.

Excactly.Most people would just develop spells and abilities that didnt do friendly fire.And the concept never make sense in the first game anyway.For example,Mass Paralysis was friendly fire free and fireball/whirlwind/two-handed sweep were not.
Im sure there are better ways to increase the challenge of a game.

Modifié par tonnactus, 27 février 2011 - 06:49 .

[Matchy Pointy]

While I hope for this, I think it is unlikely.

[tichard]

Amioran wrote...

tichard wrote...

I really don't understand why they didn't add the on/off friendly fire option on every difficulty level.

Because it's not simple.

People please, at last if you don't have the knowledge of the thing at hand try to inform yourself a little better before insisting a thing it's easy when it's not and that devs are just lazy.

Just the fact that a toggle for FF indipendent from difficulty has never been done before for a party rpg alone should ring a bell for you, isn't it?

Hmm and I suppose you have the knowledge ?
So maybe you could explain why changing a value is so challenging.
Even if you have to edit all the spells attributes by hand it would take what ? 5 hours ?


PS: I'm not saying that the dev are lazy, I think it's gameplay design and I would to understand why.

Modifié par tichard, 27 février 2011 - 06:57 .

[FieryDove]

JrayM16 wrote...

I must say, there really is no reason why there shouldn't be a toggle. I would never use FF, but it just amkes sense to have a toggle.

----

We chose to set the game at the default, or normal, difficulty. This prevents people from accidentally setting the difficulty too easy or too hard. We do not want to give people the wrong impression about combat by having them accidentally setting it to nightmare and then choosing not to buy as the demo was too hard to play.
http://social.biowar...6133882#6134081

There was a similar answer about FF along with a few others in the past. People would toggle it on without paying attention, then die...come here with maximum rage or just give up on the game completely.

But FF with Melee aoe now could make easy a worse than nightmare choice. Someone posted...I forget who now that ff on easy would do 100% melee damage to party members where on nightmare it does 1/10. If that's true...wow.

Nightmare sounds way over the top for me and my less than average skillz.

---
Peter Thomas wrote...
Enemy health is increased. Enemy
damage is increased. Enemy force is increased. Enemy cooldowns are
decreased. Hostile effect durations on enemies are decreased. Less
health potions drop. Enemies heal themselves more often. Party members
can have more injuries. Some enemies have additional effects on their
abilities (dispel, bypass damage resistance, steal health potions, etc)
as well as some miscellaneous things (like the combat cooldown reset not
being present). There may be others.

Oh yeah, if you're below 10% health, you start bleeding to death. The bleedout is 1% per second.
Injury Kits heal injuries.
Max number of injuries is Casual 1, Normal 2, Hard 3, Nightmare 4. The reason you didn't really see them in the demo was because that first area has them disabled. It's a tutorial level.
I don't know if it's been mentioned yet what injuries actually do in DA2... Each injury reserves 20% of your health.
-----

I still would like a toggle for maybe normal/hard to try. But its too late now. sigh

Modifié par FieryDove, 27 février 2011 - 06:57 .

[moilami]

Dorian the Monk of Sune wrote...

The hypocrisy is what bothers me. How can you have the nerve to say that this game is in any way strategic when you allow the bombing of your own tanks in every level but nightmare?

Ah, my friend, now you and me just join the chant "it is not dumbed down". If we chant and want-believe everything is possible to believe! Blessed are those who can move mountains by just believing!

[Calgetorix]

I didn't use fireball, or cone of cold for that matter, near my characters in the demo to begin with because I thought there was FF on.

When I found out there wasn't, I was quite surprised. It changes the whole combat dynamic (have a warrior taunt every monster nearby and spam AoE near him? No problem now!).

It's possible they would have to redo balance if they enabled FF on hard but the fact that they haven't done so already is a poor design choice.

[1483749283]

I have updated the top post with a FAQ. Please add any suggestions.

The only way I can see this being difficult to implement is if all their friendly fire checks are written as

if (difficulty == NIGHTMARE) {
   RoastYourTank();
}
else {
   Cheese();
}

In this case, it would very difficult to tell FF checks from other night-mare type effects, and would require hand-editing of a lot of code, which would be quite discouraging to us proponents of this idea.

Modifié par Pausanias, 28 février 2011 - 04:47 .

[AustinKain]

OMG this again. Get a life and deal with what the developers of the game are giving you or simply dont play it. Just stop with the same ole thing on the forums.

[Melness]

AustinKain wrote...

OMG this again. Get a life and deal with what the developers of the game are giving you or simply dont play it. Just stop with the same ole thing on the forums.

You're bashing one of the few reasonable request threads in these forums.

I'll play in Nightmare anyway, but I can sympathize. Having to aim a fireball is simply very fun to me. I'd suggest removing 'magical' from the title - melee classes will cause friendly fire on nightmare as well.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

I feel it really ought to be telling that Friendly Fire is only present on Nightmare. Nightmare is designed to be insanely, aggravatingly difficult, and the fact that Friendly Fire is only enabled on a difficulty setting with that reputation speaks as to how unbalancing Friendly Fire could be.

As has been said numerous times before, it's not just an issue of implementation. Yeah, a modder could change things so that every AoE ability inflicts friendly fire damage regardless of difficulty level, and it would likely just be a lot of drudge work, hunting down all the variables that need to get changed/added. But the mod would destroy the game balance as was intended.

If BioWare were to put it on a toggle, they would be obligated to re-balance the game with Friendly Fire in mind for all difficulties as a matter of professionalism, which is not a minor undertaking at all. Which would mean that difficulty without Friendly Fire shifts downward. Much like having the overhead camera in Origins for the PC: since the game was designed with the more reckless chase camera in mind, using the overhead made the game much easier.

[Incantrix]

Due to mechanics like posted before, it wont happen...especially with the huge amount of AoE effects that you get (FF would make elemental mages almost unplayable due to all spells be AoE in nature apart from winters grasp), but suppose they magically made the toggle work then why not?

[1483749283]

Here's my response to this point. A hardcore mode with friendly fire on would be more difficult than hardcore but less difficult than nightmare. Agreed? I have even added it to the top post.

Therefore, simply create a new difficulty level between hardcore and nightmare. Call it "Extreme" or something like that. No rebalancing required.

As far implementation issues, it all boils down to whether they have an if(nightmare) or if(friendlyfire) check in the code. We simply do not know. From a design point of view, it would have been more elegant to have an if(friendlyfire) check. It could be that it's easy for them to make the change.

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

I feel it really ought to be telling that Friendly Fire is only present on Nightmare. Nightmare is designed to be insanely, aggravatingly difficult, and the fact that Friendly Fire is only enabled on a difficulty setting with that reputation speaks as to how unbalancing Friendly Fire could be.

As has been said numerous times before, it's not just an issue of implementation. Yeah, a modder could change things so that every AoE ability inflicts friendly fire damage regardless of difficulty level, and it would likely just be a lot of drudge work, hunting down all the variables that need to get changed/added. But the mod would destroy the game balance as was intended.

If BioWare were to put it on a toggle, they would be obligated to re-balance the game with Friendly Fire in mind for all difficulties as a matter of professionalism, which is not a minor undertaking at all. Which would mean that difficulty without Friendly Fire shifts downward. Much like having the overhead camera in Origins for the PC: since the game was designed with the more reckless chase camera in mind, using the overhead made the game much easier.

[Ziggeh]

Pausanias wrote...

As far implementation issues, it all boils down to whether they have an if(nightmare) or if(friendlyfire) check in the code. We simply do not know. From a design point of view, it would have been more elegant to have an if(friendlyfire) check. It could be that it's easy for them to make the change.

That would make it very easy for modders to make the change. For them to make the change it would have to become supported content, which means balancing and testing.

[pezit]

The game was designed to be played with FF off, the movement speed of enemies and your own characters are so high that it's expected to have pretty much you entire party in melee constantly. Even if you aim your AoE where you have no companions they might just run or teleport over there in 0.1 seconds and you'll hit them. I think most people who asks for FF would have turned it off after trying it in this game anyway, it will be extreme frustrating to play with especially with the lack of isometric camera.

[Skyweir]

pezit wrote...

The game was designed to be played with FF off, the movement speed of enemies and your own characters are so high that it's expected to have pretty much you entire party in melee constantly. Even if you aim your AoE where you have no companions they might just run or teleport over there in 0.1 seconds and you'll hit them. I think most people who asks for FF would have turned it off after trying it in this game anyway, it will be extreme frustrating to play with especially with the lack of isometric camera.

I just assumed that friendly fire was a toggle. Happily I found this thread in time.

It's not about difficulty, it's about that nebolous beast: immersion. I am not a min/maxer, which is likely required to do well at Nightmare. Yet, a roleplaying game where my magical fireballs leaves my character intact while enemies are not only affected by mine but also their own fireballs, is in truth badly designed. Why is it I cannot have both?

One can do a lot of hand waving in such a game, but this breaks every credulity. It's game breaking, and destroys the internal consitency which fantasy worlds depend upon. I would never have thought Bioware to make such a mistake. I am not in the habit of buying broken games, so I might have to wait buying the game untill they decide to fix this. 

All the other small problems the game shows in the demo was not a deal breaker, for at least I knew Bioware would create a consistant, immersive world and a great story. Now I am not certain they can.

[Eber]

.

Modifié par Eber, 28 février 2011 - 11:00 .

[Superposition]

Several posters in this thread have raised valid concerns. Friendly fire is gamebreaking for me too. However I did not find DAO's Nightmare difficulty hard. I expect this time that Nightmare difficulty will be a micromanagement hell, because custom tactics will be almost useless.  We will find out soon enough. But having only one difficulty level that features friendly fire is a poor design decision. 

Modifié par Superposition, 28 février 2011 - 02:36 .

[Darji]

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

I feel it really ought to be telling that Friendly Fire is only present on Nightmare. Nightmare is designed to be insanely, aggravatingly difficult, and the fact that Friendly Fire is only enabled on a difficulty setting with that reputation speaks as to how unbalancing Friendly Fire could be.

As has been said numerous times before, it's not just an issue of implementation. Yeah, a modder could change things so that every AoE ability inflicts friendly fire damage regardless of difficulty level, and it would likely just be a lot of drudge work, hunting down all the variables that need to get changed/added. But the mod would destroy the game balance as was intended.

If BioWare were to put it on a toggle, they would be obligated to re-balance the game with Friendly Fire in mind for all difficulties as a matter of professionalism, which is not a minor undertaking at all. Which would mean that difficulty without Friendly Fire shifts downward. Much like having the overhead camera in Origins for the PC: since the game was designed with the more reckless chase camera in mind, using the overhead made the game much easier.

It only tells you that the combat overall is unblanced. Its just a spam fest of skills and AOE attacks.  There is no way that normal people could play this game on a normal or hard difficulty with friendly fire on. Just look at the skills in the demo. Most of them were AOE attacks because it looks much cooler.

And yes this is another reason why combat did not improve and became less tactical.

Modifié par Darji, 28 février 2011 - 02:27 .

[flagondotcom]

I think I'm somewhere in the middle on this. I've never played DA:O on Nightmare with characters less than about level 10, and I'm unlikely to play DA2 on Nightmare in the first couple of playthroughs. I agree with the comment above about NM in DA2 likely being a "micromanagement hell", and also feel that *not* having FF for fireballs and giant-sweeping 2H weapons will be immersion-breaking. I'm willing to play the game and see, but right now as a PC gamer this looks like another case where the focus was on "fast twitch and awesome" and not enough on "make a fun game that preserves immersion and uses traditional RPF elements".

[Aidunno]

I'll reserve judgement until I've played the full game on harder levels rather than normal.

[apoc_reg]

No Friendly fire as a mage = no tactics!

I remember how dumb i felt when i woulkd catch my own guys with cone of cold... i find it mental that wont be possible.  I played on the level where you got i think 50% friendly fire and difficulty wise that was just right for my limited skills!

Modifié par apoc_reg, 28 février 2011 - 03:36 .

[apoc_reg]

Dorian the Monk of Sune wrote...
How can you have the nerve to say that this game is in any way strategic when you allow the bombing of your own tanks in every level but nightmare?

This

[Elsariel]

I hate friendly fire and I'm glad it's out of the easier levels. However, I'm aware that my personal preferences shouldn't dictate what everyone else gets. So, I vote YES. Allow friendly fire to be toggleable. Doesn't hurt me one whit and everyone is happy.

[SnowHeart1]

 Requests for "toggles" (such as a profanity filter) are occasionally met with a response by designers/programmers that such a thing is surprisingly difficult, but in the event that it would not be difficult to add a toggle for friendly fire at the lower difficulty settings, I would whole-heartedly endorse (and use) such a feature.