369 réponses à ce sujet

[RohanD]

Aldandil wrote...

Please feel free to direct me to some storydriven partybased tactical RPGs taking place in a standard fantasy setting with a realistic spin. No cherry-picking please.

I'm pretty sure that Mass Effect faces competition from both other FPS games and other RPGs, and its strength is not being a hybrid but being good.

Okay, pretty much every single jRPG is story driven. Check.

Has a party. Check

Is "tactical". What does this word mean however? In FFXIII, for different fights, I had to switch and change different characters, with different stats and weapons to get the best result, is this "tactical" to you? I would say that it is, slightly. 

What does "realistic spin" mean? If it was present in DA:O, surely swinging two handed swords (which they often use with one hand WTF?) like butter knives, performing impossible acrobatics CONSTANTLY for the entire duration of a fight and exploding into swimming pools of blood after being simply stabbed by a dagger, has removed any remnants of realism entirely. 

As I said in a previous post (no point repeating myself), the speed of the combat in DA2, has all but made pause and play a redundant element to the gameplay. It seems totally useless, and it is obvious the game was not really designed with this mechanic in mind (again see my previous post).

Now as for Mass Effect, actually, no, I believe its originality made it a unique game, which made it a good game. It is actually more in a genre of its own, something like Metal Gear Solid, which can't really be categorized firmly as a shooter or adventure game.

Modifié par RohanD, 27 février 2011 - 03:52 .

[TwistedComplex]

Night Prowler76 wrote..

Of course there is going to be people who buy this and pre-order it even more before it launches, especially this time of year when there is no real competition, that doesnt mean it will be a huge success does it? And most of the sites that I have been on have a negative tone towards the game, sorry, as much as you guys dont want to believe it, its true.

and i care why? as long as i like it that will mean it was a success, if we were judging by forums cod would have sold 5 copies

It just seems like you guys cant handle people criticizing the game, those sites arent really in a minority, its hard to find a website that thinkgs DA2 will be great, other than this one of course.

Go to the youtube trailer and read the comments, there are plenty who are praising it

And maybe the reason who don't take your critisizm is because we don't agree with it? I dunno, just a hunch

Modifié par TwistedComplex, 27 février 2011 - 03:51 .

[lx_theo]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

Night Prowler76 wrote...

lx_theo wrote...

I noticed the PC version has auto-attack (at least it did when I played it, would be weird if it didn't), so its more like Origins than the console version. PC gamers constantly complaining, sheesh.

The console version has auto attack as well I think?

you are correct

Really, well, then I'll definitely use that. Didn't see it. Some reason i think most people won't too.

[Lennonkun]

lx_theo wrote...
Really, well, then I'll definitely use that. Didn't see it. Some reason i think most people won't too.

The simple reality that Bioware even added a button mashing/auto attack toggle purely for console users says a lot.

[BeardedNinja]

Lennonkun wrote...

lx_theo wrote...
Really, well, then I'll definitely use that. Didn't see it. Some reason i think most people won't too.

The simple reality that Bioware even added a button mashing/auto attack toggle purely for console users says a lot.

what, that they anticipated people not liking the change and/or hitting A repeatedly? Cause thats all I see that it says.

[Grunk]

RohanD wrote...


I see so many people say "The combat is just like DA:O! It''s just faster and there's more flashly animations". Don't you see, that you are contradicting yourself in this statement? How can the combat be exactly the same, but then different? I'll give you an example from an enormously popular and excellent gaming franchise: when Street Fighter II moved from Champion Edition to Hyperfighting and the game was sped up considerably, it changed forever (in that case for the better). 

So my point is, that the speed of the combat, in my belief, has fundamentally changed the way a large part of the game works. It intrinsically has moved DA away from a tactical approach to playing. Look at all the Final Fantasy Tactics games, or their related titles (the fantastic Tactics Ogre just got re-released for PSP). These are pure, turn based games. Strategy requires thought, timing, planning. How can you do this when everything happens at light speed? Sure you can pause, but really, I have to be brutally honest, the pausing in DA2 so far seemed totally pointless. Why? Because when I paused and issued a command then unpaused, the action was over so quickly that I had to pause again instantly to issue the next command. It just seemed totally redundant and not the way the game was meant to be played.

The speed is an entirely different matter in a fighting game than in a game like DA2. You're not doing one frame links in DA, you know? I didn't find the pausing in DA2 pointless, but I also think the demo isn't giving us a decent view of the combat in terms of when you'd need to pause, etc. I know that I didn't use the pause feature much in the first few hours of DA:O, you know?

[RohanD]

Grunk wrote...


The speed is an entirely different matter in a fighting game than in a game like DA2. You're not doing one frame links in DA, you know? I didn't find the pausing in DA2 pointless, but I also think the demo isn't giving us a decent view of the combat in terms of when you'd need to pause, etc. I know that I didn't use the pause feature much in the first few hours of DA:O, you know?

When I press a button and then something awesome happens, how many frames happen between pressing the button and the awesome?

[Lennonkun]

BeardedNinja wrote...
what, that they anticipated people not liking the change and/or hitting A repeatedly? Cause thats all I see that it says.

The game has button-mashing on console by default. You can change that for a more normal gameplay. PC gets crappy console camera and... it can't be changed cause they completely removed isometric.

My point is they made more concessions for console users since the game was developed for them.

[BeardedNinja]

Lennonkun wrote...

BeardedNinja wrote...
what, that they anticipated people not liking the change and/or hitting A repeatedly? Cause thats all I see that it says.

The game has button-mashing on console by default. You can change that for a more normal gameplay. PC gets crappy console camera and... it can't be changed cause they completely removed isometric.

My point is they made more concessions for console users since the game was developed for them.

well I read from the Devs that the changed the panned out view so that they could make actual tall buildings and didnt have to cut the roof out of every area in this game. But yeah, blaming consoles for everything worls too:P

[Lennonkun]

BeardedNinja wrote...
well I read from the Devs that the changed the panned out view so that they could make actual tall buildings and didnt have to cut the roof out of every area in this game. But yeah, blaming consoles for everything worls too:P

The loss of isometric camera is a devastating loss for PC gamers. We frankly don't care about the ceilings of some building. We care about the tactical gameplay of our party.

[Dorian the Monk of Sune]

ushae wrote...

Wow there are a lot of nay sayers here, is it so difficult to simply enjoy a game for its merits as opposed to singling out every possible flaw in it ? Believe it or not games are evolving according to the console market, why ? Because console games sell a LOT better than PC games, why ? Because pirates have managed to DECIMATE PC game sales otherwise we wouldn't be lagging behind in tech, why ? Because their cheap and don't want to pay for a product talented developers have created. This results in developers creating games centric to console hardware. Ever wondered why Red Dead Redemption never came to the PC ?

Roleplaying games are still great, they're just moving in a different direction. When the next generation of consoles are released (let's face it it's inevitable) then the gap between PC and console graphics will be very close. PC's will be a centralised for MMO's, simulation and strategy games. Consoles will dominate most other genres, probably catering to the causal crowd too. There is no distinct winner and I'm positive Bioware will always make great games. Just remember they have to think about both types of gamers, not just PC.

 This post might irk
me worse than anything in this thread. I grew up playing both consoles games
and PC games. I could care less what platform a game is on. Let’s not justify degeneration
based on sells. Baldur’s Gate would have sold on the PS 1 or 2 or Xbox.
Platform has nothing to do with quality. Yes its true that exclusive consoles
gamers were sold a lot of generic crap from Japan and have lower standards for
anything that isn’t spiky haired and big eyed. I know that’s true because it is
me. I was so sick of the anime circuit that I was willing to take anything back
when my PC broke down and I had to tour consoles for my RPG fix. Still why
should we accept this as an excuse for an erosion in quality?

I predicted the
movement to action RPGs and back when I use to play Shenmue on the Dreamcast I
was ok with that because Shenmue had great action combat. Mass Effect has good
action combat too while Jade Empire was ok but ME and Shenmue had two things going for them that Dragon
Age does not. ME is a shooter with the satisfaction of managing an aiming reticle.
Shenmue was built from the Virtua Fighter engine. DA:O or 2 neither have the
underpinnings of a good action RPG. The quality of the combat will sink or swim
with the strategy. The animations are for show and yes DA 2 puts on a good show, but the depth is lacking from the enemy AI, to the level scaling, or the
sidescroller encounter waves. Then you only have four party members, and a lot
of the other mechanics are removed from the infinity engine days. An evolution is  action combat that is better than TB combat or at least real time
pause that’s better than the Gold Box games which is what I could say for
Baldur’s Gate. Shenmue and Deus Ex had better combat than some TB games. It can be done. I'm not a pureist. That’s not what we are getting. We are getting something that is worse than what we had before. By any standard I dont see how this is better than Baldur's Gate.

[Belinze]

marshalleck wrote...

Apparently line-list dialogue with an unspoken and expressionless protagonist and isometric top down strategic camera are the cornerstones of role-playing games. Since neither feature in DA2, DA2 is no longer an RPG. Who'd have thought?

I totally agree with you.....love your quote from Kreia by the way.....so Kotr fan as well I take it

[RohanD]

BeardedNinja wrote...
, blaming consoles for everything worls too:P

Other things you said were okay but this isn't really a constructive thing to say, so you're basically trolling my thread with this. Please don't. 

What angers me even more about the loss of the isometric camera on the PC, is that they gave two excuses for this

1. Ceiling art 
2. Level design (this reason was given when everyone rightly called bs on the first reason)

And now we are hearing from pretty much every reviewer, that the level design is one of the weakest parts of the game, with repeated environments happening throughout. 
So basically, Bioware didn't have the guts to come right out and say:

"Look, we are making this game with as little money as possible to maximize its profit. We are aiming to do this by launching it off the backs of the success of both ME2 and DA:O. We are targetting the console market predominantly because that is where the fast cash is. This means we will be cutting out many of the features our PC audience loves because firstly they are too time consuming, secondly too costly, and thirdly are not appreciated as much by the majority of the target market"

Go watch that absolutely atrocious interview recently done by their head of marketing, Silverman. It is a complete PR nightmare for everyone who loved the deep intricacy and effort we felt in DA:O. Words cannot describe how much fail was in that interview.

It was hilarious to see the fanlords bash the interviewer in that clip as well, when in all honesty, the marketing director should definitely be fired for that segment alone.

Modifié par RohanD, 27 février 2011 - 04:24 .

[Heather Cline]

I've played PC games and Console games and yes there are different combat mechanics for both systems. However what gets me is everyone says that the graphics are crappy for the PC/Mac version. I've seen screen caps of the PC/Mac version and compared them to the graphics for the 360/PS3 version of DA:O and there isn't a damned difference. The same thing I did for DA2 and there isn't any difference graphic wise. Frankly complaining about the graphics is stupid, yes maybe the consoles have less processing power than a computer because a computer can be upgraded while a console cannot that doesn't mean that the graphics are any different.

I get that PC gamers are upset about the loss of the top down view for DA2 but beyond that it ticks me off that every PC gamer I come across has to ****, ******, whine, moan and groan about graphics when there is not a damned bit of difference between the console graphics and the PC/Mac graphics for games that cross the PC/Console barrier.

[Lennonkun]

RohanD wrote...
Go watch that absolutely atrocious interview recently done by their head of marketing, Silverman. It is a complete PR nightmare for everyone who loved the deep intricacy and effort we felt in DA:O. Words cannot describe how much fail was in that interview.

It was hilarious to see the fanlords bash the interviewer in that clip as well, when in all honesty, the marketing director should definitely be fired for that segment alone.

I was considering sucking it up and pre-ordering when I saw that interview. I'm not buying DA2 untill its on sale now.

[Dorian the Monk of Sune]

Lennonkun wrote...

BeardedNinja wrote...
what, that they anticipated people not liking the change and/or hitting A repeatedly? Cause thats all I see that it says.

The game has button-mashing on console by default. You can change that for a more normal gameplay. PC gets crappy console camera and... it can't be changed cause they completely removed isometric.

My point is they made more concessions for console users since the game was developed for them.

Dont blame console users for bad game design blame Bioware. Unless they are delivering something in the range of Ninja Gaiden quality combat I would rather play with an iso cam using 6 to 8 party members with real time pause. It wouldnt matter if I was playing on the PC, Wii, PS 3, Xbox or Nintendo DS. 

[Piecake]

Lennonkun wrote...

BeardedNinja wrote...
well I read from the Devs that the changed the panned out view so that they could make actual tall buildings and didnt have to cut the roof out of every area in this game. But yeah, blaming consoles for everything worls too:P

The loss of isometric camera is a devastating loss for PC gamers. We frankly don't care about the ceilings of some building. We care about the tactical gameplay of our party.

I really dislike when people try to speak for a group of people

[TwistedComplex]

Dorian the Monk of Sune wrote...

The animations are for show and yes DA 2 puts on a good show, but the depth is lacking from the enemy AI, to the level scaling, or the
sidescroller encounter waves..

There was never any depth to the AI to begin with

DA:O AI just attacked who ever did the most damage, or had the heaviest armor. Same with DA2. Neither of these games have outstanding AI, at least as far as i can tell, i haven't played all of DA2, but don't pretend that DA:O had "great" AI, because it didn't, in fact i would go as far as saying DA:Os AI was generic at best

I sure as hell didn't play DA:O because of the combat

Modifié par TwistedComplex, 27 février 2011 - 04:33 .

[Lennonkun]

Piecake wrote...
I really dislike when people try to speak for a group of people

Too bad for you the vocal majority of those people are in agreement. There is a small amount of individuals who played DA:O on PC that are not irritated by this.

Are those 3 sites in OPs post that majority? Well they are part of it. There are many more than 3 sites discussing DA2. The thread over at Something Awful and the majority of goons are irritated as heck too enough so that of the 400+ pages, the majority of it is negative.

[Piecake]

TwistedComplex wrote...

Dorian the Monk of Sune wrote...

The animations are for show and yes DA 2 puts on a good show, but the depth is lacking from the enemy AI, to the level scaling, or the
sidescroller encounter waves..

There was never any depth to the AI to begin with

DA:O AI just attacked who ever did the most damage, or had the heaviest armor. Same with DA2. Neither of these games have outstanding AI, at least as far as i can tell, i haven't played all of DA2, but don't pretend that DA:O had "great" AI, because it didn't, in fact i would go as far as saying DA:Os AI was generic at best

I sure as hell didn't play DA:O because of the combat

They talk about AI at the 23 minute mark, so if you believe him, the enemy AI sounds improved

[Lennonkun]

Piecake wrote...


They talk about AI at the 23 minute mark, so if you believe him, the enemy AI sounds improved

Based on the demo the AI is just as bad, and worse so, the AI is still stuck in the DA:O combat system.

[RohanD]

Lennonkun wrote...

Piecake wrote...
I really dislike when people try to speak for a group of people

Too bad for you the vocal majority of those people are in agreement. There is a small amount of individuals who played DA:O on PC that are not irritated by this.

Are those 3 sites in OPs post that majority? Well they are part of it. There are many more than 3 sites discussing DA2. The thread over at Something Awful and the majority of goons are irritated as heck too enough so that of the 400+ pages, the majority of it is negative.

Interesting, do you have a link? I'll add it to the OP. 

Anyone who has a positive PC thread to add as well, let me know.

Cheers.

Modifié par RohanD, 27 février 2011 - 04:37 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Piecake wrote...

Lennonkun wrote...

BeardedNinja wrote...
well I read from the Devs that the changed the panned out view so that they could make actual tall buildings and didnt have to cut the roof out of every area in this game. But yeah, blaming consoles for everything worls too:P

The loss of isometric camera is a devastating loss for PC gamers. We frankly don't care about the ceilings of some building. We care about the tactical gameplay of our party.

I really dislike when people try to speak for a group of people

Me too - then again, maybe he's using the royal "We" due to his apparently high opinion of himself as a PC gamer. *snort*

[RohanD]

Lennonkun wrote...

Piecake wrote...


They talk about AI at the 23 minute mark, so if you believe him, the enemy AI sounds improved

Based on the demo the AI is just as bad, and worse so, the AI is still stuck in the DA:O combat system.

I wouldn't be so quick to think that the demo is a complete and total representation of what the final build will be like. 

That being said, it was a huge mistake for Bioware to even release a demo using an early build and locking out features etc., It's just totally unprofessional.

At game conventions and for previewers fine, use an early build. But when you are showing the product to your customers, do not, under any circumstances, bring anything less than the final, complete product. It will more often than not be counter productive. 
 
This is ESPECIALLY true, when the game's shipping date is so close to the demo release date. Customers know there is very little chance of bugs being fixed, and even if you tell them "Oh this is an old build, don't worry" they will still have that initial bad taste in their mouth. If you can avoid this, why wouldn't you?

Modifié par RohanD, 27 février 2011 - 04:42 .

[TwistedComplex]

People are looking at DA:O with rose tinted glasses way too much

In DA:O the abilities sucked, and there were too many of them considering almost all of them were bad

The combat was slow and unresponsive

And the entire companion system felt like a dating sim. Gifts? Really? Gifts...

DA2 cuts all the fat and makes more than just the story engaging