369 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...


Just looking at it, that's absolutely true. When you describe it as "fan art of Merrill becoming aroused from reading a sex scene between Carver and Varric..." That idea isn't creepy, but I can see how someone might think me using it as my avatar is creepy.

I've actually never heard of that Leliana fanfic, but I can imagine what it's about. It seems I'm all on board with Hawke/Bethany incest, but I draw the line at bestiality. It might also be because I feel such a personal connection to my Leliana. If it had been about Zevran and a halla, I might not have found it creepy.

My personal boundaries as far as what I'm game for might be on the conservative side (relatively speaking), but my boundaries as far as what I would call creepy are much farther out.

For the record, what Shorts said about rpgcodex people posting pictures of dead cats as a metaphor for BioWare games is something I consider creepy. As with Leliana, that may be just because I really like cats. Who knows?

I'm totally taking notes here.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...


Just looking at it, that's absolutely true. When you describe it as "fan art of Merrill becoming aroused from reading a sex scene between Carver and Varric..." That idea isn't creepy, but I can see how someone might think me using it as my avatar is creepy.

I've actually never heard of that Leliana fanfic, but I can imagine what it's about. It seems I'm all on board with Hawke/Bethany incest, but I draw the line at bestiality. It might also be because I feel such a personal connection to my Leliana. If it had been about Zevran and a halla, I might not have found it creepy.

My personal boundaries as far as what I'm game for might be on the conservative side (relatively speaking), but my boundaries as far as what I would call creepy are much farther out.

For the record, what Shorts said about rpgcodex people posting pictures of dead cats as a metaphor for BioWare games is something I consider creepy. As with Leliana, that may be just because I really like cats. Who knows?

I'm totally taking notes here.

That was either mean or I-don't-know-what

[FellowerOfOdin]

Never said there's anything wrong with that, I am fine with such decisions and I can fully understand it. I, personally, as a person who likes complex RPGs am pissed off, but EA's decision is fully reasonable from an economic point of view.

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

That was either mean or I-don't-know-what

Mean?

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

That was either mean or I-don't-know-what

Mean?

Or I-don't-know-what. I interpreted it as sarcasm, and I couldn't think of any alternatives.

[RohanD]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Zigzaggy wrote...

Bioware ARE a division of EA..

EA heirachy are not game designers they are publishers.Apportioning blame to EA is a diversion.

Question remains....As Origins was about Bioware 'getting back to the roots' of the traditional RPG...which done really well .One has to ask why change direction with the franchise.

They want their game to be as successful as it can possibly be and there is only one way to do so: streamlining. Make the game easier to acces thus less complex, change the style to a very broad one, away from stricly European fantasy, add JRPG elements and you have a far wider target audience thus a higher potential profit.

Consoles. This one, good sir. DA2 obviously made a lot of amendments to consoles to...increase profit. Sales on consoles + pc = higher profit. Easy.

Of course, making another "old school" RPG will satisfy us, the guys who want complex RPGs instead of dumbed-down successors, but...who cares? Each one of us is 50$. Everyone else is....50$. More people playing the game = more 50$. It's easy as that.

At first glance this is a fair statement. But think about the long term. With DA:O, Bioware was a unique developer in an industry swamped by fast paced 3D action games and the dwindling influence of JRPGs (FFXIII was a big shock to the system, and XIV has been a complete failure). They had a great opportunity with the sequel to solidify themselves as a truely great RPG developer that could maintain a high regard in both the PC and Console markets. 

I believe they have missed the point entirely. When you have a business model that is unique from one which has saturated the market, moving into that saturated market and abandoning what makes you unique is a pretty horrible move. You better bring something absolutely amazing or you are going to get lost in a sea of oversized swords and back flips. Do you think anyone would truly bother to try and enter the mp3 player market now and hope to become a major player against Apple?

I think ME was able to do this because frankly, there isn't anyone doing anything remotely similar in the shooter or rpg genres to match it. 

Now if DA2 is a console game, it is competing against all other console games. There's some really big established names in this area that have been there far longer, and have sold many, many more games than Bioware has.

Turning their nose up at the PC market also ties in to this. Let's be honest, the highest selling games on the PC are MMO's, FPSs, RTSs and RPGs. That's 4 main genres. The console has...many many more. That means more competition for sales because you have many more titles to compete against. If they had concentrated on making DA2 again a PC game but improved it drastically for the consoles (which I strongly believe could have been done without taking such a drastic shift) I think they would have been in a much better position. 

There are huge advantages to being in a niche market, especially when that niche isn't really a niche at all but is actually quite sizable. But it seems that Bioware or EA or both didn't see things this way for DA2.

I personally think, it may have been a much, MUCH smarter move, to label this game as a spin off and not a direct sequel, because let's be honest, that's what it feels like. 

[konjad]

AllThatJazz wrote...

I love the Codex. There are some really disturbing threads, even weirder than here I think, and I would never EVER post there because I'd get torn limb from virtual limb (being a Bioware fan and all), but they rage so wonderfully. And they are incredibly passionate about their games, even if it's not always in a good way. If any group of people is going to keep 'old school' RPGs alive, it's people like the Codexers.

Modifié par konjad, 26 février 2011 - 11:18 .

[Aldandil]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Never said there's anything wrong with that, I am fine with such decisions and I can fully understand it. I, personally, as a person who likes complex RPGs am pissed off, but EA's decision is fully reasonable from an economic point of view.

I , personally, can't seem to get pissed off about things where I can understand the reason behind it (as long as it seems to be genuine and somewhat logical). I dislike most of what is different between DA:O and DA2, but since I can understand what they are doing, I'm not really pissed about it. Many differences are not only reasonable from an economic view point, but also from a creative; I simply don't think it's a good idea myself.

[kgersen]

RohanD wrote...
...

That sums my feeling about the demo.

I actually tried to play the demo like I played DAO, by moving my characters one by one, telling them which enemy to attack, which spell or ability to use and trying to take friendly fire into account... and it was a real pain!

From the camera making it hard to precisely position your companion or target the correct enemy, to the companion stopping attacking in the middle of the fight to the spell area of effect, to the speed of the combat forcing you to concentrate on a single character if you want to pull some ability effectively (like the rogue ninja back flip).

In the end I re-enabled default tactics, play my main character and let my companion play by themselves just taking control of them once of twice during a fight. After that the game become more fun.

But that's not what I wanted in a DA game, I wanted to play DA2 like I played DAO and based on the demo it seems that trying to do it might more frustrating than fun.

[AllThatJazz]

konjad wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

I love the Codex. There are some really disturbing threads, even weirder than here I think, and I would never EVER post there because I'd get torn limb from virtual limb (being a Bioware fan and all), but they rage so wonderfully. And they are incredibly passionate about their games, even if it's not always in a good way. If any group of people is going to keep 'old school' RPGs alive, it's people like the Codexers.

You did me a codex heart! Somewhat sadly for the state of my life, that's actually made my Saturday! xxx

[Josef bugman3]

Things change! Thousands horrified and afraid! More at 11.

[The Elder King]

Kordaris wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...
They want their game to be as successful as it can possibly be and there is only one way to do so: streamlining. Make the game easier to acces thus less complex, change the style to a very broad one, away from stricly European fantasy, add JRPG elements and you have a far wider target audience thus a higher potential profit.

If Bioware wants to start creating Devil May Cry or God of War clones,
it's their choices. I can only hope that another company will do what
Bioware did once, a good RPGs. I certainly will observe with fascination
how Bioware will compete on the market with Call of Duty(which IIRC
they called an RPG) or Devil May Cry....
It seems they want to swim away from the pond of RPG into the wide
and deep sea of mediocre games with mass market. As I said-I will watch
gladly as it will compete with sharks on that sea, and wish it all that
it deserves after making ME2 and DA2....

They never called COD  a RPG. They called it a game with Rpg elements. Whatever this is true or false, it's different from what you said.

Modifié par hhh89, 26 février 2011 - 11:32 .

[Aoba]

RohanD wrote...

RPGCodex (if it's not your cup of tea, it's still good for teh lulz)

I was looking for that link the other day for lulz purposes and couldn't find it to save my life. Thank you, good Ser, for posting it!

[marshalleck]

RohanD wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Zigzaggy wrote...

Bioware ARE a division of EA..

EA heirachy are not game designers they are publishers.Apportioning blame to EA is a diversion.

Question remains....As Origins was about Bioware 'getting back to the roots' of the traditional RPG...which done really well .One has to ask why change direction with the franchise.

They want their game to be as successful as it can possibly be and there is only one way to do so: streamlining. Make the game easier to acces thus less complex, change the style to a very broad one, away from stricly European fantasy, add JRPG elements and you have a far wider target audience thus a higher potential profit.

Consoles. This one, good sir. DA2 obviously made a lot of amendments to consoles to...increase profit. Sales on consoles + pc = higher profit. Easy.

Of course, making another "old school" RPG will satisfy us, the guys who want complex RPGs instead of dumbed-down successors, but...who cares? Each one of us is 50$. Everyone else is....50$. More people playing the game = more 50$. It's easy as that.

At first glance this is a fair statement. But think about the long term. With DA:O, Bioware was a unique developer in an industry swamped by fast paced 3D action games and the dwindling influence of JRPGs (FFXIII was a big shock to the system, and XIV has been a complete failure). They had a great opportunity with the sequel to solidify themselves as a truely great RPG developer that could maintain a high regard in both the PC and Console markets. 

I believe they have missed the point entirely. When you have a business model that is unique from one which has saturated the market, moving into that saturated market and abandoning what makes you unique is a pretty horrible move. You better bring something absolutely amazing or you are going to get lost in a sea of oversized swords and back flips. Do you think anyone would truly bother to try and enter the mp3 player market now and hope to become a major player against Apple?

I think ME was able to do this because frankly, there isn't anyone doing anything remotely similar in the shooter or rpg genres to match it. 

Now if DA2 is a console game, it is competing against all other console games. There's some really big established names in this area that have been there far longer, and have sold many, many more games than Bioware has.

Turning their nose up at the PC market also ties in to this. Let's be honest, the highest selling games on the PC are MMO's, FPSs, RTSs and RPGs. That's 4 main genres. The console has...many many more. That means more competition for sales because you have many more titles to compete against. If they had concentrated on making DA2 again a PC game but improved it drastically for the consoles (which I strongly believe could have been done without taking such a drastic shift) I think they would have been in a much better position. 

There are huge advantages to being in a niche market, especially when that niche isn't really a niche at all but is actually quite sizable. But it seems that Bioware or EA or both didn't see things this way for DA2.

I personally think, it may have been a much, MUCH smarter move, to label this game as a spin off and not a direct sequel, because let's be honest, that's what it feels like. 

Interesting post, and some good insights, but I think you're missing the point. It's not Dragon Age that Bioware are attempting to use as a vehicle to penetrate the "mainstream." That dubious honor belongs to The Old Republic, and it's the 10 million+ WoW crowd they're trying to cash in on. Personally I think Bioware are doomed. I just want DA2 to be fun, and see Mass Effect concluded. After that I have very low expectations for the studio. I think they're going to wind up like Mythic--a gutted shell acting as skeleton crew for the maintenance of just another "all eggs in one basket" failed MMORPG. 

[AllThatJazz]

 Dunno if this has already been posted, and I realise it's not exactly the right thread, but there's an article on writing in videogames over at the Guardian. Several Bio/BI games mentioned in the comments section. Interesting read.



www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2011/feb/23/video-games-writers-novelists

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 26 février 2011 - 11:37 .

[Rixxencaxx]

JohnEpler wrote...

BloodRaith wrote...

So... we're the only ones that like it i take it? Can't say i care for what i saw on those forums though. One of the posters claims basically that pc gamers are more likely to go to college than console gamers... Sounds like elitism to me :/

It's usually a good idea to head into these things with the understanding that those who feel negatively tend to be more likely to post in forums and reply to articles about these sorts of things than those who were either positive or neutral. Does that mean that we don't take any of this into consideration? No, of course not - there are always valid and useful criticisms to take into consideration.

'Thanks for ruining RPGs', however, is rarely a valid or useful criticism.

i suppose that you at bioware repeat this mantra to yourself every day...

" we can't be wrong....the majority of people who liked the demo is silent....the criticism is from a loud minority....etc etc"...
However i am pretty sure that, honestly, you all know that this game rapresents only the shadow of the quality of the old bioware
Who knows? let's wait for sales numbers....and then talk about it....maybe i am wrong,,,,maybe you....

[rob_k]

I think I personally draw the line (with regard to constructive criticism) at the good folks on RPG Codex drawing an image and then posting it, with it reading 'this **** makes Final Fantasy XIII look like a masterpiece'. That was including alongside a lot of other colourful comments on the image.

Because we all know Final fantasy XIII wasn't linear, had more stats than two (three if you count hp) and had a deep levelling system (the only time the levelling system really branched was at around chapter 10). The combat was never fast either.

(And no, the above doesn't mean I hated the game. I didn't mind FF 13, but that is how the game played.)

In any case, they've renewed my faith in humanity or rather, the internet. They remined me why I never visit that particular forum as well.

Edit: Funny thing is though that while I didn't follow Demon's Souls at release, that is the only game that I don't much ****ing about at all. Other games though? Check.

Modifié par rob_k, 26 février 2011 - 11:46 .

[RohanD]

ACWolfe wrote...

RohanD wrote...

RPGCodex (if it's not your cup of tea, it's still good for teh lulz)

I was looking for that link the other day for lulz purposes and couldn't find it to save my life. Thank you, good Ser, for posting it!

No worries, yeah the site is pretty old school so hard to find stuff sometimes. It gets indexed pretty well though so if you're looking for anything just google it + RPGCodex and it should turn up. 

[Moondoggie]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Never said there's anything wrong with that, I am fine with such decisions and I can fully understand it. I, personally, as a person who likes complex RPGs am pissed off, but EA's decision is fully reasonable from an economic point of view.

Why is it when Bioware does something that people dislike it's EA's fault? So since they made Dragon Age II in a way you dislike it was EA's decision?

And how do you know it's not a complex RPG? Unless by that you mean you like getting mass lootz of random stiuff you won't even use and an overcomplicated skill tree that makes it difficult to effectively build a character.

As far as i can see it's no different from Origins they just reduced some of the stuff that was too overcomplicated.

[packardbell]

I enjoyed the demo and couldn't care less what other people thought of it.

[RohanD]

packardbell wrote...

I enjoyed the demo and couldn't care less what other people thought of it.

That's great. I'm happy for you. 

[Moondoggie]

Kordaris wrote...

Rixxencaxx wrote...
Who knows? let's wait for sales numbers....and then talk about it....maybe i am wrong,,,,maybe you....

I think they will ride somewhat on their previous hits for a while.But DA3 sales will be most interesting....

You just know if it sells well some people will be like "OMGZ IT SOLD ON CONSOLES COS THEY STREAMLINED IT TO APPEAL TO CONSOLE KIDS!!! BIOWARE SOLD OUT!!!"