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[Skilled Seeker]

Xewaka wrote...

Sydelle wrote...
Warriors should absorb attacks and fight accordingly.

Despite what MMOs tell you, getting hit is never a winning strategy. I always support evasion tanks over soaking tanks as a more sensible concept.

This is why I love playing my Warden in LOTRO  A medium armoured evasion tank.

[SoleSong]

Arttis wrote...

SoleSong wrote...

Well, you all know that in the times with great armies equipped with a sword or an advanced pitchfork there was no need for much cunning :-)

a new weapon can make all the difference.
Like going from bolt action to fully automatic or semi automatic.

Right... cunning is to make the weapons, not so much to use them :-)

[Lord Gremlin]

Basically cunning is the main stat now. After all, this game is not about having a lot of health or armor, but about being invulnerable/unhittable.

[Amioran]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Basically cunning is the main stat now. After all, this game is not about having a lot of health or armor, but about being invulnerable/unhittable.

It can help, yes, but it's totally different than before. The increase is not static and progressive, but instead in a percentual depending on level. The more you invest the more the power of the stat in itself diminish. The more you advance in level the more points you have to put in it to have equal returns.

[Utoryo]

50% Defense (via Cunning) + 15% defense (via Turn the Blade/Raise the Guard) + 13% defense (via Mage Arcane Wall/upgrades which is 20% for the mage but 5% for the entire party + Heroic Aura) = 78% Defense (58% vs lieutenants, 38% vs bosses)

Of course, there are still abilities which are going to hurt you, and spells (although you can trade-off some defense for elemental resistance with Elemental Aegis/Shroud instead of Turn the Blade/Raise the Guard)

EDIT: Corrected Arcane Wall bonus for other party members, also Peter Thomas says that all non-AoE enemy abilities are affected by defense: http://social.biowar.../4&lf=8#6207355 - unlike your own, so that makes defense even more useful.

Modifié par Utoryo, 26 février 2011 - 02:39 .

[Adhin]

Yeah max Armor cap is 80% I think. Also keep in mind Defense is only good (in large part) to Base Attack. All skills are auto-hits. So any major big attack that your thinking of that'll nearly kill said tank? Is going to hit 100% of the time anyways, you might as well have an ass ton of HP to compensate.

Massive Defense is going to be a big deal vs groups of enemies to avoid as much of that continual damage as possible though so its not like I'm just discounting it. I just mean special skills aren't subject to it like they where in DAO, and as such its importance is lessened slightly. But only slightly. All 3 stats in general are worth it and should bne focused on to some extent as a tank.

[Ansa]

Xewaka wrote...

Sydelle wrote...
Warriors should absorb attacks and fight accordingly.

Despite what MMOs tell you, getting hit is never a winning strategy. I always support evasion tanks over soaking tanks as a more sensible concept.

Cannot agree with this, having tank background in MMOs and all.
Soaking is always on top due to your healers or yourself being able to react and heal the damage up.
Yes yes you can dodge it all, but if you get hit with low healthpool, you're history. It's more of a gambling than the actual tanking.

[Adhin]

Yeah some of that is a bit miss-leading there Utoryo. For one thing effects like that don't stack, and Peter has also confirmed that Arcane 'Wall' is only 5% bonus for all party members. Only the mage gets the 20%.

Basically it looks like the system is setup to allow things to come from multiple areas but stacking up tons of sustained abilities isn't going to actually work in that manner. So its better to pick 1 good one to work off of.ee

[Skilled Seeker]

Ansa wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Sydelle wrote...
Warriors should absorb attacks and fight accordingly.

Despite what MMOs tell you, getting hit is never a winning strategy. I always support evasion tanks over soaking tanks as a more sensible concept.

Cannot agree with this, having tank background in MMOs and all.
Soaking is always on top due to your healers or yourself being able to react and heal the damage up.
Yes yes you can dodge it all, but if you get hit with low healthpool, you're history. It's more of a gambling than the actual tanking.

Have you played a Warden tank in LOTRO? They are a self healing medium armoured evasion tank and they work like a charm.

[Utoryo]

Adhin wrote...

Yeah some of that is a bit miss-leading there Utoryo. For one thing effects like that don't stack, and Peter has also confirmed that Arcane 'Wall' is only 5% bonus for all party members. Only the mage gets the 20%.
Basically it looks like the system is setup to allow things to come from multiple areas but stacking up tons of sustained abilities isn't going to actually work in that manner. So its better to pick 1 good one to work off of.ee

I didn't know it's 5% instead of 20%, that's a lot more balanced, nice. However, what Peter said is that the *same* party-wide sustaineds do not stack if multiple characters activate them. There's nothing wrong with different sustaineds affecting defense Anyhow, I fixed my original post.

EDIT: I also see Peter Thomas said defense would be capped at 80% anyway, so except for lieutenants/bosses, the 20% wouldn't have helped. Makes sense, I'm quite impressed with ability balancing on paper.

EDIT2: And enemy attacks never always hit except for AoEs according to Peter, so that might actually make defense *more* useful than I thought. Hmm!

Modifié par Utoryo, 26 février 2011 - 02:37 .

[SoleSong]

Utoryo wrote...

50% Defense (via Cunning) + 15% defense (via Turn the Blade/Raise the Guard) + 13% defense (via Mage Arcane Wall/upgrades which is 20% for the mage but 5% for the entire party + Heroic Aura) = 78% Defense (58% vs lieutenants, 38% vs bosses)

Of course, there are still abilities which are going to hurt you, and spells (although you can trade-off some defense for elemental resistance with Elemental Aegis/Shroud instead of Turn the Blade/Raise the Guard)

Where can we study all this math?... how things work behind the scenes?

Modifié par SoleSong, 26 février 2011 - 02:38 .

[bloodreaperfx]

Lets see if the WoW nerd inside me can sketch up the essential stats for a classic tank.

Basically it breaks down in two stats. One offers brute damage reduction, like armor for example. The ammount of armor you have decreases the raw damage you recive by x%. The second stat should probably add some avoidance, as in you have a chance to dodge an attack or block it/parry it.

Combining this with DA 2 stats and we would have something along the lines of:
Stamina - Raw increase in HP and thus the ability to soak up more damage,
Armor - reduces damage with x% depending on the ammount of armor you have.
Cunning/Dexterity - Provides a chance to avoid incoming damage by interpreting your enemy's move and block it or parry.
Elemental Resistance (various schools) - No description needed.

Now if encounters were designed with some sort of armor penetration in mind, you would need to change gear depending on who you fight. Bosses with high armor penetration rating would require more avoidance, while normal fights would benefit more from armor, etc.

But i'm probably rambling again

Modifié par bloodreaperfx, 26 février 2011 - 02:38 .

[Adhin]

Ahh your right I went and re-read the quotes and same abilities don't but multiple do. So Turn The blade + Arcane + Aura would come out to +28% bonus Defense (or base, as its unchanging). That's pretty sexy. I'd want 2 mages for that though, thats a hell of a mana reserve for 1 mage.

-edit-

SoleSong here - It's all the base skill info (not specializations) and 4-5 pages worth of Peter Thomas answering questions. He seems to answer a few each day. He's basically the lead design on game mechanics directly so the man knows his ****.

Modifié par Adhin, 26 février 2011 - 03:15 .

[Insom]

Constitution is better. You might as well have a high HP and just take anything they throw at you.

[AlexXIV]

Ansa wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Sydelle wrote...
Warriors should absorb attacks and fight accordingly.

Despite what MMOs tell you, getting hit is never a winning strategy. I always support evasion tanks over soaking tanks as a more sensible concept.

Cannot agree with this, having tank background in MMOs and all.
Soaking is always on top due to your healers or yourself being able to react and heal the damage up.
Yes yes you can dodge it all, but if you get hit with low healthpool, you're history. It's more of a gambling than the actual tanking.

That was a major problem with monks in EQ. They were light armored, but handled as tanks almost equal to full plate tanks. Problem was they tanked by evading. Now if they got unlucky they were hit 3 times rather quickly in a row and no 2 healers in the group could fix that. High hitpoints and high armor rating is highly reliable and therefore always the main tank, for example in raids. Not to mention lag spikes.

In a single player game though I would rather see light or medium armor warriors who actually dogde more than they get hit. If you look at it, a club on the helmet may not be as bad as a a club on the bare head or a thin cap, but it still going to send you to dizzy land. So not getting hit IS the best defensive stratigy. Whether it means to strike first or to be quick and able enough to get out of harms way.

[Adhin]

@Utoryo: I just asked in there actually about confirmation as to glancing blow vs miss and enemy skills auto-hitting or not. But ill scan his answers again to see. Pretty sure it wasn't directly clarified other then player abilities and and players glancing.

[AlexXIV]

Insom wrote...

Constitution is better. You might as well have a high HP and just take anything they throw at you.

Depends on the ratio. If you get little hitpoints per const but high armor per dex or cunning, you should go for those who give more.

[AddictedRebel72]

Makes sense to me. In the field of battle you need your witts about you. That's the way I see it anyway.

[Adhin]

Yeah I think as far as Defense per cunning the demo is a horrible example. It's very random. By that I mean, while 11th point and 12th point is always the same 'Defense' the demo seems broken in that its not a static progression. Each point isn't +10 Defense for instance like all the other stats are. First point (in warrior) is +11, then +7, then +9...its very awkward.

In either case Con is always +5 hp, Str is always +1 Fortitude, im 'assuming' retail came Cun gives something like a constant +10 Defense. Unsure what that translates into though, as the direct defense value (which you can get from armor/shields) gets translated into %Defense which is your chance to avoid taking a hit. So its not as static as str/con in either case as higher lvls makes it less and less effective. I'm guessing, though, overall that defense you get from items brings the base up to a point where what you gain from cunning is a little more static (just not as much as str/con).

-edit-
Oh it's also been stated a few times over that Armor stat requirement isn't jsut STR anymore. Heaviest armors require a mix of str/con I believe, so you'll have a reason to bring str/con up to some kinda base anyways. I can see some tankers getting min-requirements then going all Cun.

Though that said, Armor and Defense seem to be on a curve as far as what static translates into % based off lvl. It's got a diminshing return on it. So while you maybe at lets say, 10% defense and 5 points in cunning could bring you to 60%, huge benefit! but then the next 5 points is just another 10%. It seems like theres going to be Ideal points based off equipment and current level.

Where as, again, Str/Con is always static its not level dependant. I prefer static honestly. So im going to go massive Con and let my equipment and some party buffs handle my Defense values.

Modifié par Adhin, 26 février 2011 - 03:01 .

[Lockindal]

Remember, now that heal heals based off your hit points, CON might be very important to make every heal count.

[bloodreaperfx]

Ansa wrote...


Cannot agree with this, having tank background in MMOs and all.
Soaking is always on top due to your healers or yourself being able to react and heal the damage up.
Yes yes you can dodge it all, but if you get hit with low healthpool, you're history. It's more of a gambling than the actual tanking.

Thats only valid in games like WoW. So it really depends on the rules. In D&D for example, a Monk could be one helluva a tank because he would simply evade everything thrown at him. No damage at all is superior to constant damage even with healing.

Modifié par bloodreaperfx, 26 février 2011 - 03:01 .

[Adhin]

Yeah Lockindal, I find it kind of funny. People have said because heals have such long cooldowns now (Mage Heal is 60 seconds) that it makes HP almost useless. But upgraded thats 80% of your maxHP instantly regenerated. Popping that at 20-25% of your warriors HP is basically a Full heal, and if it took awhile for him to 'get' that low, then he may keep lasting till you have to Heal again.

Though Peter has said before if your relying on the base Mage heal to win out on fights there's a good chance (on later difficulties) that your just prolonging your death. Sometimes its better to overwhelm the opposition and kill them quickly then it is to sit there trying to outlast them. Personally I think its pretty much always better to overwhelm. If you can't then you try to outlast as a last resort kind of thing.

Either way high resist/armor with a high HP pool should, math wise at least, work out well.

[SoleSong]

Adhin... thanks for here :-)

[Adhin]

And bloodreaperfx, your very right on that. However WoW, and DA2 (and origins) was not a game based off Defense alone. DnD is literally based almost entirely off AC. AC is there 'base' mechanics. It is, by and large, the main source of a tank in that system. There are rare, powerful items that have DR and they're generally more powerful then straight AC as they can make you straight up immune. That's because the system isn't based around it though.

DA2(O) are based primarily off absorbing damage with a Defense in as a means to also mitigate things away but there are things that completely ignore defense. Where as Armor/Damage Resistance/Magic resistance is pretty much always used. Some debuffs can bring it down, or ignore parts of it but in the end its a 'constant'. Why WoW is based off damage mitigation in that form over avoidance. Its a constant, its easier to balance around. Balancing entirely off 'random chance' frankly, kinda sucks balls.

[Adhin]

You betcha SoleSong ^.^