85 réponses à ce sujet

[0rz0]

Defense and armor both have diminishing returns, which in this case means that every level you loose a few points in both and therefore have to invest in it. It might be better to evade damage more than soaking in yes, but for that you need to put (I think someone calculated this) 1.5 points in cun every level to keep defense more or less high. Which is only useful versus normal enemy attacks and is weaker versus higher rank creatures (defense looses 20% per rank, armor only 10%). I won't start with the vulnerability to skill effects and magic since most of that can be solved with skills, but still.

[Insom]

Stamina and HP don't go up automatically at level up correct? There's not much of a place for cunning at all then. When you have strength, willpower and constitution all at 30+ then maybe the remainder points should go in cunning.

[Arttis]

did a quick run through the demo with beth going full cunning*main character gets auto leveled*

with arcane sehild (increase defense by20%) she had 80% dodge vs regular and elite.74% dodge vs boss

[bloodreaperfx]

Adhin wrote...

And bloodreaperfx, your very right on that. However WoW, and DA2 (and origins) was not a game based off Defense alone. DnD is literally based almost entirely off AC. AC is there 'base' mechanics. It is, by and large, the main source of a tank in that system. There are rare, powerful items that have DR and they're generally more powerful then straight AC as they can make you straight up immune. That's because the system isn't based around it though.
DA2(O) are based primarily off absorbing damage with a Defense in as a means to also mitigate things away but there are things that completely ignore defense. Where as Armor/Damage Resistance/Magic resistance is pretty much always used. Some debuffs can bring it down, or ignore parts of it but in the end its a 'constant'. Why WoW is based off damage mitigation in that form over avoidance. Its a constant, its easier to balance around. Balancing entirely off 'random chance' frankly, kinda sucks balls.

Sure, I agree. DA 2 has very little in common with the dnd AC system. However, it would've been interesting to see encounters where avoidance outshines pure damage reduction and force tanks to swap gear or change how they approach the fight.
 
As I said in a previous post, maybe a boss has high armor penetration rating (a stat which I belive exists in DA:O, some mobs have it) and having avoidance would pay off. Yes, that would mean to balance gear around stats and probably redesign a couple of encounters, not likely to happen.....but thats not my point. If the devs want avoidance to be good, they can make it so, without undermining the importance of defense.

[Sidney]

Insom wrote...

Constitution is better. You might as well have a high HP and just take anything they throw at you.

In DAO that was suicide. I always found not getting hit (DEX) was a lot better than standing there and taking it (CON). My early efforts at high CON tanks floundered badly when I ran out of healing potions while my high DEX guys had a an epic amount of survivability.

[Loc'n'lol]

Sidney wrote...

Insom wrote...

Constitution is better. You might as well have a high HP and just take anything they throw at you.

In DAO that was suicide. I always found not getting hit (DEX) was a lot better than standing there and taking it (CON). My early efforts at high CON tanks floundered badly when I ran out of healing potions while my high DEX guys had a an epic amount of survivability.

Well that's different now, and constiution reaps higher rewards as your base health does not increase with levels, enemies do less damage overall, and healing effects scale with max health.
Still, I think a 50% defense cunning build is viable (that's 1.5 cunning per level if the demo is any indication), if you stack it up with items and abilities that further increase your defense. Seems like the max defense you can reach is 80%, at that point you can pretty much ignore all normal-rank enemies.

[Lorianno]

Cunning allows your tank to be a cunning linguist, as opposed to dexterity which will only make him an expert in meetings with Palmela Handerson.

[bloodreaperfx]

Lorianno wrote...

Cunning allows your tank to be a cunning linguist, as opposed to dexterity which will only make him an expert in meetings with Palmela Handerson.

And here I was thinking stamina was the stat to be an expert in Pam Anderson meetings. Combined with abit of defense, those bewbs can be dangerous.

[Adhin]

We're not actually sure if we get HP per lvl or not. Demo is horribly off on just about 'everything'. I mean look at the giantbomb video again as an example, 263 HP. With 22 Con thats only +60 hp from Con. Where the hell is the other 203 coming from? I'm sure some of its from items, and maybe warriors just have a high base starting value compared to the demo.

Either way the healing bits 100% spot on. in DAO all healing was static. You gained a lot of HP from lvl and since having high HP didn't effect healing there was no real point to up con past just wanting a high hp pool. in DA2 though its ALL (even regeneration) is %based. So high hp = better healing/regenerating.

Also in NM, when a character gets to 10% hp they start to (for players anyways) bleed out. 1% per second. Even thats percent based, regardless of HP your dead in 10 seconds if you don't get your HP above 10%. I'm sure there will be some kinda regeneration item out there somewhere, or some skill via other methods thats %based regen too. 1% every 5 seconds or something. In which case more HP means better regeneration. Actually pretty sure the Spirit Healer first talent is a sustained healing aura that ticks %hp every few seconds.

So HP is important to at least some extent, and for RP reasons im gonna max the **** outa that on my first warrior.

[-Skorpious-]

I was planning on throwing enough STR to get the best armor(s), CON up to 30, and the rest divided between CUN and WP (mostly CUN though, as all I want is at least 20 WP).

[STARSBarry]

with higher cunning comes more insults for your insult sword fighting technique, keeping the enemy enraged is always a smart tactic

[PsychoBlonde]

Xewaka wrote...

Sydelle wrote...
Warriors should absorb attacks and fight accordingly.

Despite what MMOs tell you, getting hit is never a winning strategy. I always support evasion tanks over soaking tanks as a more sensible concept.

In a well-designed game, there will be a sort of golden mean of evasion, soak, and mitigation--the tricky part is just finding it.  You want to hit precisely that point in all three where you're not losing in another area due to diminishing returns.  Add in threat generation and you discover why tanking is so complicated--you have to do this really complicated  gear-shuffle to hit the number you want in all four of those areas.

In Origins, at least, you didn't really need soak (health).  You just needed evasion (defense) and mitigation (armor).  You COULD get more soak if you really wanted to, but I never found much use for it.  Threat generation was wonkus.

[Aklis]

Lorianno wrote...

Cunning allows your tank to be a cunning linguist, as opposed to dexterity which will only make him an expert in meetings with Palmela Handerson.

Sign'd.

When you think about it, cunning does make sense in that it allows you to read your enemy's movements better.

[Adhin]

So I feel this is relevant to this thread, Peter just responded in the other skill thread as to my question on monsters hitting players and item requirements. Its not direct number or anything but its very interesting. Here it is:

Peter Thomas wrote...

Adhin wrote...

Peter not sure if you can answer this one, I know no real info has been released on equipment but. Can you give a basic answer to requirements on Equipment. All im looking for is the basic heaviest armor general comparison vs DAO.

For instance, DAO rank 7 massive armor had a requirement of 42 Str. Is DA2 Less, same, or more then that? I've been getting the impression its less with added requirement of Con. Kinda wondering how close I am on that assumption.

Information hasn't been released on exactly what requirements are for armor. Applicable stats vary for each type. This was a cross-class restriction. For the Heavy armor (don't remember if it's called Heavy or Massive... internally it`s called Heavy), the stats required are indeed Str and Con. If a Mage wants to go around in Heavy armor, he`ll pretty much need to invest all his points in Str, Mag and Con. Not that bad a choice for a Blood Mage, actually.

There are no tiers anymore. The strength of the armor is determined by an internal 'level' of the item, on the same scale as the player's level. As level goes up, so do requirements. Also, as the power level of the item goes up (number and strength of properties), the requirements go up as well. At the nominal max level of the game, the requirements are lower than what you gave in your example. At max max level, with the most powers an item can have... an epic item like that might have a higher requirement.

Oh and 1 more question, you've mentioned before about how player/companions don't miss they get 'glancing blows'. Question is, do MONSTERS miss vs player/companion or do they also get glancing blows? Or is that kinda dependant on rank of monster? For instance normal or critter mooks miss, and Elites/Bosses get Glancing Blows?

Also, do monster skill use (not base attack) auto-hit like player abilities do?

Enemies do not autohit with abilities. AoEs (because you walk into them) do generally autohit. Enemies can miss. Enemies also have a chance that a hit will be just a glance, but the chance decreases as the difficulty goes up.

So basically it looks like requirements on items is just as free-flowing as other stuff. Basically how powerful an item is (based off its stats and runes and all that) increase its requirements all together. And monsters generally miss on defense its just certain AoE attacks that auto-hit if your in the radius. So yeah that just makes Defense allt he more useful then I was thinking but I still will be going with Con as my primary stat.

Modifié par Adhin, 26 février 2011 - 03:56 .

[Aklis]

Thanks, Adhin, for finding all this information. You're awesome.

[viking135]

I hope somone does some good theorycrafting so that i can just read a little and more or less copypast there build.

[Adhin]

I'm doing tons of it viking, not one to post on forums about all that though so, for your sake I hope someone else does. Im sure they will, theres people just as crazy as I am about all this but actually, for whatever crazy reason, put it out for everyone to see.

[Adhin]

Little bonus confirmation on HP totals.

Peter Thomas wrote...

classes have varying initial stats. They don't gain Health or Stamina per level, only from attribute points and equipment.

Health and Stamina/Mana don't gain per lvl. That right there makes Willpower/Constitution more important then it was in DAO if nothing else (and there are other reasons). That's your primary growth then.

[PretentiousCat]

Covi wrote...

Being dexterous in heavy plate armor doesn't make much more sense.

Yeah I mean, this entire game is really realistic too. You can leap 10 feet into the air with the same heavy plate armor but dexterity doesn't help with your avoiding attacks.

[ArawnNox]

Adhin wrote...

Little bonus confirmation on HP totals.

Peter Thomas wrote...

classes have varying initial stats. They don't gain Health or Stamina per level, only from attribute points and equipment.

Health and Stamina/Mana don't gain per lvl. That right there makes Willpower/Constitution more important then it was in DAO if nothing else (and there are other reasons). That's your primary growth then.

A lot of these alterations make me happy. Maybe now we'll see more varied builds beyond "Everything into Stat X".

[ArawnNox]

PretentiousCat wrote...

Covi wrote...

Being dexterous in heavy plate armor doesn't make much more sense.

Yeah I mean, this entire game is really realistic too. You can leap 10 feet into the air with the same heavy plate armor but dexterity doesn't help with your avoiding attacks.

Bashing the overstylization aside, it at least makes other stats important, rather than dex be the end-all be-all stat it was in DA:O (at least for tanks and archer rogues, anyway).

[ALVIG824]

i wish one point to constitution added more than 5 hp cuz thats nothing.... thatd help for a bisic "tank stat"

[Bara Rockfall]

I agree. I think it was more a attempt for overall stat balance. Don't make the improvement you get from one stat more or less valued than the others. It does create a bit of an issue since cunning improve rogue skills as well but does nothing additional for the other classes.

[Sabresandiego]

Constitution is better than cunning for a warrior tank, IMO

[Loc'n'lol]

ALVIG824 wrote...

i wish one point to constitution added more than 5 hp cuz thats nothing.... thatd help for a bisic "tank stat"

You can put 3 points in constitution every level ...well, reallistically only 2 because you'd put at least one point in strength to keep up with gear requirements and 100% attack chance on normals. By level 20, that's +190HP, more than what you started with.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 26 février 2011 - 06:05 .