262 réponses à ce sujet

[Superposition]

  I believe that the following interview of Mike Laidlaw (Lead Designer) featured at Gamasutra is relevant :
www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6297/the_rise_of_dragon_age_ii.php

[TheRealJayDee]

Joy Divison wrote...

The problem is that "plausible in Thedas" means something different to you and me.  If you mean "plausible in a medieval setting," then I might agree with your list.  But I take "THEDAS" to mean a "fantasy based world based loosely on medieval Europe." So my list would be: 

Zevran can dualwield  longswords and use them effectively in melee combat. (Yes)
Zevran can dualwield  greatsaxes and use them effectively in melee combat. ( No)
Zevran can teleport. (yes: teleporting in not extraordinary in fantasy)
Zevran can turn invisible. (yes: invisibility is not extraordinary in fantasy)
Zevran can kill an armored indiviual with a dagger / short sword in one blow. (Yes but usually not)
Zevran covering a distance of  100 meters in less than 5s. ( yes: feats of speed are not extraordinary...)
Zevran can assume the form of a Dragon. (Zevron no, but plausible for specific characters)
Morrigan can use her staff effectively in melee combat. ("Effectively" makes this No)
Leliana's song is so great that darkspwan loose their will to fight and do not defend themselves. (Yes: common bard troupe)
Leliana can perfrom great jumps as seen in sacred ashes trailer. (Yes: great feats of athleticism are not extraordinary...)
Hawke can perfrom great jumps as seen in Rise to powe trailer. (Yes).

Just a short reaction to the bolded parts, because lots of people don't seem to realise that "fantasy" is a pretty diverse genre. Invisibility/teleportation, even if they may exist, aren't ordinary things in for example Lord of the Rings, Robert E. Howard's Conan/Kull/etc stories and the world of Warhammer Fantasy. There are of course lots of worlds and settings were these concepts indeed wouldn't be that extraordinary (D&D), but that's kind of my point. Zevran, however, was a mundane assassin last time I checked. As in "no magic". So he shouldn't teleport or turn invisible anyway, as far as I'm concerned (yeah, I never used Stealth).

Joy Divison wrote...

I think the reason some people have voiced their displeasure stems from various reasons that are not too hard to deduce from the various threads on this forum.  I would posit it mostly has to do with unfulfilled expectations.  People loved Origins and didn't want DA2 to be radically different and there are a lot of people out there who instinctively turn their nose up at "Anime" and "MMO" "over the top" fighting style and were disappointed DA2 combat resembled it too much.

That being said, I have difficulty empathizing with the gamer who has no problem with mages making a mockery of the laws of physics while fighting demons, the undead, and ancient curses where characters casually brush of mortal blows that would absolute incapacitate their ability to fight (to say nothing of unsexy mundane dangers such as disease or a sprained thumb), but can't wrap their head around a warrior swinging a big sword or a rogue deftly leaping away from an enemy attack. 

Aargh, I don't think I'll ever understand this. The existence of magic doesn't mean anything goes. I... can't really say much more to this. Besides, who really has a problem with warrior swinging a big sword or a rogue deftly leaping away from an enemy attack. It's the way they do it that causes the problems...

[Lotion Soronarr]

aang001 wrote...

Ensgnblack wrote...

If I wanted realism I would go outside.<br />
<br />
This game has ogres, darkspawn, dragons, and mages. Why do you not have a problem with magic, but the mass and weight of melee weapons troubles you?

Becasue they're stupid and ignorant. They have never fought a day in their lives, never heald a weapon, never did martial arts, never ...here it comes, Played a GAME in their lives! They want a realistic fantasy game about magic...lol! I swear...Kids are getting dumber and dumber each day... If only they had good parenting or an education, maybe they'd be smarter? I'm guessing they were sat infront of a tv when they were younger and stayed there until today and thought everyone fights like in old wrestling matches where it takes 10 seconds to finally swing whatever object was in the other person's hands so the other can dodge it easily...



A realistic fantasy game:
1 Sword swing that lands kills instantly or deals major injury, player goes to hospital, doctor or just dies.
If player dies in battle, game over, no redos.  (???)
No Magic
No Potions
No Elves
No Dwarves
No fictional land
Takes place in present  (?????)
Taking something that isnt yours, lands you jail
No monsters
LI possibly gives you a STD depending on your choice (Only thing in life that's a dice role)
No Dragons
You're you and not an avatar you make in a game thus no reason for character creation  (???)
no music as you explore the world
Still have map quest!

Great game huh? So realistic and fun! ....*sigh*

Whom are you calling "kids"?

Judging by your reaction and post, the only one that could be labeled as such is you.
Have you fought as a soldier in a war?
Have you wielded a real mediavel sword?
Have you consulted experts on the matter of medieval life and warfare?
I bet you have neither, yet continue to bash on people who did.


Now, the funniest part of your "argument" (and I use the term sarcasticly) is the extreem reductio ad absurdum.

Wanting more realism or things handeled more realisticly, DOES NOT EQUAL the extreeme of wanting a medieval simulator.

Fantasy is fantasy for a reason. It adds things that dont' exist, but doesn't necessarily take away things that do exist! Things that don't have real-life counterparts are fair game.
Magic doesn't bother me, sicne there is no magic in real life. There's nothing to compare it against. Even so, magic can still sound more plausible from one setting to another.


I suggest the the next time you think before you start typing....boy.

[Ramza_1]

KezzieZ wrote...

Thank for finally saying it, simfamSP.<br />
People are hating way too much on this particular fantasy game not having the same "realism" as its predecessor fantasy game. They're both fantasy games.

If you don't have the ability to distinguish between different levels of realism, and fantasy vs real is anaologous to black vs white to you, that is your failing, not a fault of the desire for more realism.  There is no such thing as true non-fiction anyway, every effort at such is colored by the lens of the interpreter.

[Ramza_1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

aang001 wrote...

Ensgnblack wrote...

If I wanted realism I would go outside.<br />
<br />
This game has ogres, darkspawn, dragons, and mages. Why do you not have a problem with magic, but the mass and weight of melee weapons troubles you?

Becasue they're stupid and ignorant. They have never fought a day in their lives, never heald a weapon, never did martial arts, never ...here it comes, Played a GAME in their lives! They want a realistic fantasy game about magic...lol! I swear...Kids are getting dumber and dumber each day... If only they had good parenting or an education, maybe they'd be smarter? I'm guessing they were sat infront of a tv when they were younger and stayed there until today and thought everyone fights like in old wrestling matches where it takes 10 seconds to finally swing whatever object was in the other person's hands so the other can dodge it easily...



A realistic fantasy game:
1 Sword swing that lands kills instantly or deals major injury, player goes to hospital, doctor or just dies.
If player dies in battle, game over, no redos.  (???)
No Magic
No Potions
No Elves
No Dwarves
No fictional land
Takes place in present  (?????)
Taking something that isnt yours, lands you jail
No monsters
LI possibly gives you a STD depending on your choice (Only thing in life that's a dice role)
No Dragons
You're you and not an avatar you make in a game thus no reason for character creation  (???)
no music as you explore the world
Still have map quest!

Great game huh? So realistic and fun! ....*sigh*

Whom are you calling "kids"?

Judging by your reaction and post, the only one that could be labeled as such is you.
Have you fought as a soldier in a war?
Have you wielded a real mediavel sword?
Have you consulted experts on the matter of medieval life and warfare?
I bet you have neither, yet continue to bash on people who did.


Now, the funniest part of your "argument" (and I use the term sarcasticly) is the extreem reductio ad absurdum.

Wanting more realism or things handeled more realisticly, DOES NOT EQUAL the extreeme of wanting a medieval simulator.

Fantasy is fantasy for a reason. It adds things that dont' exist, but doesn't necessarily take away things that do exist! Things that don't have real-life counterparts are fair game.
Magic doesn't bother me, sicne there is no magic in real life. There's nothing to compare it against. Even so, magic can still sound more plausible from one setting to another.


I suggest the the next time you think before you start typing....boy.

I totally agree.  I have a brief metaphor to explain why I think realistic fantasy is interesting.  Pretend you are observing the behavior of mice in a horizontal maze as they search for cheese.  Now add a second layer to your maze.  There is now a vertical element; the maze and consequently the behavior of the mouse becomes more complex, and more interesting. 

The same thing happens when you take the behavior of people in the "real world", and try to explore how they would behave when you add another "layer", such as an entire new physical phenomenon like magic.  If the rules are not defined for this new element, then there is less complexity, and the characters just respond to it like they do to any other undefined blob; they ignore it, or make up explanations for it, without really trying to test its boundaries.  When the rules are similar in scope to others exisiting in the real world, it adds complexity, and becomes more interesting.

[Joy Divison]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Just a short reaction to the bolded parts, because lots of people don't seem to realise that "fantasy" is a pretty diverse genre. Invisibility/teleportation, even if they may exist, aren't ordinary things in for example Lord of the Rings, Robert E. Howard's Conan/Kull/etc stories and the world of Warhammer Fantasy. There are of course lots of worlds and settings were these concepts indeed wouldn't be that extraordinary (D&D), but that's kind of my point. Zevran, however, was a mundane assassin last time I checked. As in "no magic". So he shouldn't teleport or turn invisible anyway, as far as I'm concerned (yeah, I never used Stealth).

Zevran CAN teleport/become invisible.  Not must.  DAO stealth 4 = invisibility in everything but name

Aargh, I don't think I'll ever understand this. The existence of magic doesn't mean anything goes. I... can't really say much more to this. Besides, who really has a problem with warrior swinging a big sword or a rogue deftly leaping away from an enemy attack. It's the way they do it that causes the problems...

The argument is for consistency.  It's not just magic.  Once a warrior can survive a mortal blow to the head without even getting his bell rung, is impervious to anything mundane or unsexy, and can somehow cause lethal harm to a actual 60 foot dragon, calling b*llsh*t because having them move like ninjas breaks immersion or is unrealistic strikes me as being ridiculously fickle.  But that's just me, I'm a sucker for consistency.

Modifié par Joy Divison, 01 mars 2011 - 01:29 .

[Snowbug]

Ramza_1 wrote...

I totally agree.  I have a brief metaphor to explain why I think realistic fantasy is interesting.  Pretend you are observing the behavior of mice in a horizontal maze as they search for cheese.  Now add a second layer to your maze.  There is now a vertical element; the maze and consequently the behavior of the mouse becomes more complex, and more interesting. 

The same thing happens when you take the behavior of people in the "real world", and try to explore how they would behave when you add another "layer", such as an entire new physical phenomenon like magic.  If the rules are not defined for this new element, then there is less complexity, and the characters just respond to it like they do to any other undefined blob; they ignore it, or make up explanations for it, without really trying to test its boundaries.  When the rules are similar in scope to others exisiting in the real world, it adds complexity, and becomes more interesting.

Cautiously tiptoeing in to say that I think this is a wonderful post

[Lotion Soronarr]

Joy Divison wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Just a short reaction to the bolded parts, because lots of people don't seem to realise that "fantasy" is a pretty diverse genre. Invisibility/teleportation, even if they may exist, aren't ordinary things in for example Lord of the Rings, Robert E. Howard's Conan/Kull/etc stories and the world of Warhammer Fantasy. There are of course lots of worlds and settings were these concepts indeed wouldn't be that extraordinary (D&D), but that's kind of my point. Zevran, however, was a mundane assassin last time I checked. As in "no magic". So he shouldn't teleport or turn invisible anyway, as far as I'm concerned (yeah, I never used Stealth).

Zevran CAN teleport/become invisible.  Not must.  DAO stealth 4 = invisibility in everything but name

Which is funny because both contradict the game lore directly.

There is no ressurection or teleportation in Thedas...or invisibility.

[TheRealJayDee]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Joy Divison wrote...

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Just a short reaction to the bolded parts, because lots of people don't seem to realise that "fantasy" is a pretty diverse genre. Invisibility/teleportation, even if they may exist, aren't ordinary things in for example Lord of the Rings, Robert E. Howard's Conan/Kull/etc stories and the world of Warhammer Fantasy. There are of course lots of worlds and settings were these concepts indeed wouldn't be that extraordinary (D&D), but that's kind of my point. Zevran, however, was a mundane assassin last time I checked. As in "no magic". So he shouldn't teleport or turn invisible anyway, as far as I'm concerned (yeah, I never used Stealth).

Zevran CAN teleport/become invisible.  Not must.  DAO stealth 4 = invisibility in everything but name

Which is funny because both contradict the game lore directly.

There is no ressurection or teleportation in Thedas...or invisibility.

Slightly off-topic, but this reminds me of Shadowrun. I've always loved the pen&paper rpg, and was excited a few years ago when I heard there would be a new SR game. Of course I was thinking of a great RPG, but it turned out to be multiplayer FPS. The magic in this game provided two important mechanisms: teleportation and resurrection - two of the things magic in this world was never capable of; basic Shadowrun lore. But they pretty much invented their own new lore for the game anyway, so...

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

What about the architect's ability in the end of awakening?

[Sabresandiego]

Hey guys, don't mind the fact that I can take 5 sword slashes to my robe, only lose a quarter of my health points, and walk around like nothing happened. Dont mind that I can wiggle my fingers and shoot lightning at you.

Wait a second, that warrior swung a 10 lbs weapon faster then I can in real life!? What BS that is totally unrealistic and needs to change!

The hypocrisy of some people is absolutely absurd... The melee combat in this game, as fantastical as it is, is still closer to realism then anything mages do.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 03 mars 2011 - 05:17 .

[Melness]

Joy Divison wrote...

The argument is for consistency. It's not just magic. (...) But that's just me, I'm a sucker for consistency.

No, the argument isn't for consistency. Its for taste, your taste - for I am sure that if the change was, according to you, for the best, you would agree with it - as did the developers.

If you must see the new combat system's animations as a retcon, as opposed to the DA:O's being simply limited, then I deliver you a most realistic thing: the setting changes according to the needs of the game developers and writers. And when retcons happen, you either get over it or leave the room.

And you know why this so called 'realism' some cry for wouldn't be consistent with DA:O? Its as simple as you going back to DA:O and seeing incredibly implausible skills: such as someone using a smokebomb to create a diversion and seem like teleportation or very quick movement your 'NINJA TELEPORT BAKSTABZ', Whirlwind, Stealth and Hail of Arrows.

[Volleyjeff]

Seems to me that the major point of disagreement here is Realism vs. Playstyle.

I think that the major complaint of so many people is NOT so much the lack of "realistic" combat effects as much as the elimination of the playstyle that was developed in Origins. Like some have said in this thread - once you establish a particular playstyle and gain a loyal following, you can't expect to dramatically change it into basically a different game and expect the loyal followers to be happy.

I just played the demo earlier this evening and I gotta admit that I'm genuinely concerned about DA2, and may consider not buying it unless I find out that the final release has toned down the arcade-style action a bit.

I don't expect everything in DA2 to be exactly like Origins, but I think it's dangerous for a studio to put out a product that is so completely different at its core that it risks alienating the very people who elevated the reputation of its predecessor. I've looked forward to this game for nearly a year, and after tonight I suddenly have a desire to hold off on my purchase.

Many of you like the new playstyle, so I'm not going to insult it. It's just not for me. What I loved MOST about Dragon Age Origins was the storyline, roleplaying options, and tactical combat. It's hard to learn much about the storyline from the demo, but I'll trust PCGamer's review which says the story is richer than Origins. But roleplaying and tactical strategy look to be radically different, or in some cases non-existant in DA2, which is why I won't be buying the game on release date.

I'll wait and see what the response is once people have had the opportunity to play the final product.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Hey guys, don't mind the fact that I can take 5 sword slashes to my robe, only lose a quarter of my health points, and walk around like nothing happened. Dont mind that I can wiggle my fingers and shoot lightning at you.

Wait a second, that warrior swung a 10 lbs weapon faster then I can in real life!? What BS that is totally unrealistic and needs to change!

The hypocrisy of some people is absolutely absurd... The melee combat in this game, as fantastical as it is, is still closer to realism then anything mages do.

If you bothered to read the thread, you'd see that there is no hypocrisy.

Not all breaks from reality are equal and have the same reasons. Hence why they can't be equated like that. Apples and oranges.

[Lumikki]

simfamSP wrote...

Seriously. Since when does any Western RPG give us 'real' combat. DA:O was no different. There is no such thing as 'realistic' combat in any game.

I'm sure DA2 will be a good game, but please, if your going to whine about anything, don't let it be about 'realism'

I don't know what you try to say, but for me physical laws are allways been important. Meaning if world is magical one, but still follow physical laws, then it does matter to me when "realism" is broken. I'm fine that game like DA2 goes beoynd "realism" for others fun, but I can't say I'm fine with it. It's little like movies when someone does something what doesn't make any sense, it's annoying me.

Modifié par Lumikki, 03 mars 2011 - 09:14 .

[Agamemnon2589]

Not going to lie, for anybody who's ever actually fought in armor with a real sword and shield (hi there) the combat in DA:O was slow to the point of being ridiculous. I'm six feet tall and a hundred and thirty-five pounds. If I can run around in full armor (leather, mail, and plate) and swing a longsword faster than the Grey Warden, we have something of a problem.

[Annarl]

 I will confess I haven't read the whole thread. But I wanted to add my opinion.  It is a fantasy game so there is an element of unrealism.  There is no magic in the real world but most accept it in a fantasy setting.  In my opinion so long as the laws (lore) are consistent then I will accept it in that setting.   

[Lotion Soronarr]

^^
True.

But going int the other extreeme is not the answer either.

[wowpwnslol]

simfamSP wrote...

This post is about how idiotic the fact that people want realistic combat in a fantasy game. Not "Why is diz like teh ninja gaiden".

I'm sorry but it appears that people have gone back in time, watched every major 16th century battle and have become experts in medieval combat.

Seriously. Since when does any Western RPG give us 'real' combat. DA:O was no different. There is no such thing as 'realistic' combat in any game.

I think people get the picture that swords weighed 50kg and it took 10 seconds to swing one. Or that every battle was an amazing duel to the death. Fantasy is fantasy, there are certain realistic aspects to Western RPGs, but you cannot bash DA2 for having 'non realistic' combat then praise DA:O for it's 'realistic' combat. Both have their pros and cons. DA:O didn't go over the top, DA2 does. But to judge a game for one single flaw? Why do I still play Morrowind? Or Gothic 3? Because they are good games.

Combat is as relevant to an RPG for me as Graphics, they score pretty low. Look at Planescape: Torment, how many people can say it had the best combat ever made? Not many. But how many people can say, it had the best writing in an RPG ever? Quite a few.

I'm sure DA2 will be a good game, but please, if your going to whine about anything, don't let it be about 'realism'.

Shut up.

[Joy Divison]

Lumikki wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Seriously. Since when does any Western RPG give us 'real' combat. DA:O was no different. There is no such thing as 'realistic' combat in any game.

I'm sure DA2 will be a good game, but please, if your going to whine about anything, don't let it be about 'realism'

I don't know what you try to say, but for me physical laws are allways been important. Meaning if world is magical one, but still follow physical laws, then it does matter to me when "realism" is broken. I'm fine that game like DA2 goes beoynd "realism" for others fun, but I can't say I'm fine with it. It's little like movies when someone does something what doesn't make any sense, it's annoying me.

Well here's the thing.  Using the physical laws I'm familiar with (i,e, earth), a 5' 9" human weighing 170 pounds with a sword and shield wouldn't be able to kill a 60 foot dragon weighing 50 tons; the human would not be able to even reach any of the dragon's vital areas, to say nothing of having the strength necessary to inflict anything more than a superficial wound.  Even a glancing blow from the 50 ton dragon would have enough kineic force to instantly incapacitate the human's ability to fight and would most likely kill him.  Humanoids need to be able to break physical laws in order to live up to the deeds the bards sing of and RPGs simulate.

[Elsariel]

Has anyone taken into account that some of the metals that swords and armor are being made out of in Dragon Age may not have the same weight and density as what we're used to in real life?

I certainly don't know what Silverite, Veridium, or Dragonbone is. Perhaps some of them have the properties of Mithril. Light, yet strong.

[OmegaBlue0231]

Elsariel wrote...

Has anyone taken into account that some of the metals that swords and armor are being made out of in Dragon Age may not have the same weight and density as what we're used to in real life?

I certainly don't know what Silverite, Veridium, or Dragonbone is. Perhaps some of them have the properties of Mithril. Light, yet strong.

Great point, and you're probably right. If dragonbone is really bone and not just a cleaver name it would probably be very light.

[Junri]

The codex says dragonbone is very light and harder then steel and I would think Silverite is similar to Mythril silver due to its name.

The only realism I care about in the game is the complex relations between races and nations within DA:O. For example, if mages existed in the real world they would be treated like mutants in X-men. Something along those lines.

[Elsariel]

simfamSP wrote...

Elsariel wrote...

Has anyone taken into account that some of the metals that swords and armor are being made out of in Dragon Age may not have the same weight and density as what we're used to in real life?

I certainly don't know what Silverite, Veridium, or Dragonbone is. Perhaps some of them have the properties of Mithril. Light, yet strong.

*Winner image snipped*

Ooh... what do I win??