262 réponses à ce sujet

[PsychoBlonde]

Archereon wrote...

Hilariously over the top is, by definition, hilarious, it might be cool at the same time, but the fact remains that it's so unrealistic, unbelievable, and otherwise suspension of disbelief shattering that it's funny.  If cutscene combat is equally over the top, then it becomes hard to take the game seriously, even as Bioware insists that it's [semi] Mature fantasy.  That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but I don't think I'll be able to derive much enjoyment from a Bioware game that can't be taken seriously.

Wait, you took ORIGINS seriously?!  How?  Did you not pick up ANY of the companions?  Any hope of me taking the game "seriously" in this way got thrown out the window with the first snide quip.  You are putting WAY too much responsiblity on the game to "make" you feel this or that.  It is your own attitudes and thinking that inform the "seriousness" of the in-game events.

Even very light-hearted and frivolous-seeming games *can* be taken seriously.  (The best humor has a hard core to it.)  I don't see the hilarious combat as detracting from this in the least.  It changes the overall tone, yes, makes it a bit more light-hearted and fanciful, but so was Jade Empire.  So was Baldur's Gate II.  Some of Bioware's most memorable characters were incredibly over-the-top goofy (Jan Janssen, Edwin, Minsc and Boo, Xan, you get the picture).

You gotta make your own cool in this life.  I'll take a bit of cheesiness over grimdark mcdarkburgers any day of the week.  After all, if I didn't like cheese, I couldn't like pretty much anyone I know.  And that would be sad.

[Jitter]

The game has all the looks of a bad Korean Grind MMO

Ohh look my warrior is running with both arms locked backward at a 45 angle.
a la Dragon Ball Z .

Has anyone ever tried to run with their one arm backward at 45 , let alone with a weapon in it .

Im serious i think sailor moon should be a member of the party .
Her eyes can turn into smiley faces when we win a fight.

We can all run arround with our arms in wierd angles, then when anopponent arrives .
We can all start screaming loong mantras , as the games tilts into slo mo , our fists and eyes begin to glow.
the warriors levitate into the air , the backgroud fades into a blotchey blue background , as the camera focuses  in super zoom on the main characters eyeball , the eyeball glows and bursts into flames .  Camera pans out as the female warrior with a size 5 waist and pencil thin arms , rips out her 13 foot long sword , screams for the power of her ancestors , who were also pencil thin sword weilding cheerleaders and slices her enemy in half while screaming .

"WoooooooJIT" "WooooJit".

The the enemy can somehow meld itself back togeter , and laugh for an uncomfortable period of time. 
if the voice over could be out of sync with the character that would be perfect .
"Ahhh ahh ha yor powers are weak" says the enemy as his mouth contimues to move long after the voice has stopped. "Now i will show you true power" .... uncomfortable long laugh track. 

Then the enemy will run at the hero full speed with BOTH arms locked backward. As the background blurs into linear patterns highlighting the awsome speed and power of the enemy, for a full 8 seconds this animation can play as the enemy accelerates to inhuman speed , even tho the hero was only 6 feet away .  


I used to play these games when they looked like this .......
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What i need is good equipment balance, a good story , a fun plot .
Keep the every button push is awsome , ill never remember evey button push , i will however remember a good story .
I would have been happy to hear that Bioware fired a bunch of graphic artists and hired a few story writers.

Modifié par Jitter, 27 février 2011 - 06:49 .

[moilami]

Ziggeh wrote...

abat223 wrote...

I can swing an axe slowly in real life chopping wood..

I'm not sure it would go through. The idea is to hit it with some force.

Lol ever tried to do a good pile of wood to burn in Sauna? GL doing it in DA2 way.

[Ivolon]

In Exile wrote...

Ivolon wrote...
There was actually grappling and gutting, its called overwhelm and resulted very often in a dead party member. How many "crowds" did you fight in DAO?

Did you play DA:O? You were often outnumbered 2:1 by darkspawn/denerim thugs/werewolves.

I'm talking about getting dragged down and stabbed. That's how fighting works, usually.

The only marginally realistic part of DA:O combat were the finishing blows, in that they basically took 1-2 quick moves to get the other person off balanced and then killed then. Particularly the warrior gut and shield to the face.

I am pretty sure that dragging down and stabbing isn´t as easyy  if you are fghiting a gainst a group of people even if you outnumber them 2:1. Combat games in will almost always be prone to abstraction for the sake of gameplay and entertainment. But that isn´t the point, the combat in DA2 is exaggerated to Devil May Cry level. Even DMC is aware how redicoulus over the top its combat is. How should I take the story atleast somewhat serios when a huge part of the game is nothing more than a caricature.

[Godak]

In summary; DA2 is hilariously over the top.

Thus, DA:O is hilariously under the top.

Therefore, it all comes down to one's personal preference.

[PsychoBlonde]

Jitter wrote...

Has anyone ever tried to run with their one arm backward at 45 , let alone with a weapon in it .

Erm, actually yes.  Running with a staff is not fun unless you're actually trying to pole-vault.  Slinging it behind your back like that (granted without QUITE so much dramatic posture, but a little cheesy dramatic posing is fun) actually makes it easier.  You only do it for very short times.

Pikes are even more interesting to learn about.  That whole carrying them pointing straight up on the march thing is for parade/showing off.  (Heaven help you if you walked under a tree.)  IIRC they were most often dragged on the ground, held in a particular way that enabled you to be ready for a surprise attack.  (It's been a while since pike practice, so the details are hazy.)  The common word for "pikeman" in German, I think, actually translates as "spear dragger".

Most training with weapons involves (at first anyway) holding the weapon in poses that feel totally unnatural and look horribly stilted and stupid, but it's because these are the positions that long periods of hard knocks have demonstrated actually allow you the best offensive and defensive options.  You get used to them with practice.  You know you're starting to get somewhere when you adopt the proper positions from habit and they feel comfortable and "correct" to you.

My personal interest is mostly academic so there's a limit to how much goofy running around in the backyard I'm willing to do.  But you learn something even trying to hit someone with a wooden sword.

[AngelicMachinery]

I personally love to press X to awesome, it's the same way I Jason.

[silent bumblebee]

In Exile wrote...

silent bumblebee wrote...
The problem a lot of people have is when things like humans start doing all kinds of extraordinary and over the top things. Humans actually exist and many feel it looks ridiculous when they start lunging halfway across the map and teleporting behind enemies. At that point they’re not even acting like humans anymore and there is an off-putting feel to that for many people.

I find it ridiculous when Alistair is thrown and punched by an Ogre and doesn't get smooshed. Or when a wolf overwhelemd Morrigain and pieces of her throat didn't fly out. Or when Sten was peppered with so many arrows that he should have looked like a hedgehog but just happened to lose 100 health. Or when Oghren and my HNF were caught in a fireball and didn't have their skin and armour melt in a horrible, horrible death.

Oh! And there was that time the High Dragon caught Zevran in her jaws and started biting down, but instead of exploding him in two he was fine.

Seriously, HP breaks reality. Having intense acrobatis is no more or less ridiculous than HP. DA:O wasn't realistic. DA2 isn't realistic in a different way. You like a certain kind of fake combat. That's great, but none of it has to do with realism.

I wasn't arguing for HP or saying DA:O had realistic combat. Nor did I say I ever prefer a "certain kind of fake combat." That was why I said I didn't necessarily mind all the new animations at the bottom of my post. I just think asserting becasue DA is a fantasy setting that anything goes is a terrible argument. However, if you really wish me to repond to your examples, the best I think I could say in short amount of time I have is those are necesarry for halfway appealing gameplay. Who wants to play a game where you get hit a a sword once and die? Who would be skilled enough to play that?  Not the best argument I've made for anything and I suppose there might be people who would like that kind of game. However, for normal people like you and me (you are normal right?), we are not  talented enough to pull that off. Again, I'm not saying other games are somehow the epitome of realism, especially DA:O, I just don't like this opening of the flood gates type of  justification for over the top abilities is a good means to anything.

[PsychoBlonde]

Ivolon wrote...

I am pretty sure that dragging down and stabbing isn´t as easyy  if you are fghiting a gainst a group of people even if you outnumber them 2:1. 

It's plenty easy--if you don't care whether they skewer you on your way in.  If someone in the larger group is willing to eat a sword through the chest, you can take people down quite fast.  Granted, most people are not so interested in doing this, the selfish bastards.

Also, I've seen Devil May Cry, and that's a rather painful exaggeration.  It's not even as exaggerated as Jade Empire, which was pretty tame by over-the-top kung-fu standards.

Modifié par PsychoBlonde, 27 février 2011 - 06:56 .

[In Exile]

Ivolon wrote...
I am pretty sure that dragging down and stabbing isn´t as easyy  if you are fghiting a gainst a group of people even if you outnumber them 2:1.

Psychoblonde beat me to it, but it basically depends in part on whether or not you're willing to die. But it's more complicated than that. If you're fighting with someone, they're going to try and close in on you, especially depending on the weapon you have. If you're busy with one target and someone flanks you, that's a great way to die. So, for example, Alistair "tanking" by fighting 4 melee warriors at once is a  spectacular way to get knocked down and mudered.

Combat games in will almost always be prone to abstraction for the sake of gameplay and entertainment. But that isn´t the point, the combat in DA2 is exaggerated to Devil May Cry level. Even DMC is aware how redicoulus over the top its combat is. How should I take the story atleast somewhat serios when a huge part of the game is nothing more than a caricature.

Okay, so you're willing to grant DA:O wasn't realistic? Now we're just debating how unrealisic combat should be for people to buy it? That just comes down to preference. I personally really like DMC acrobatics. I don't want plausible looking combat - I live in the real world, I play sports, I deal with that on a daily basis. I want to see out and out visually impossible things that I know I can't see in real life. That's part of the fun.

[PsychoBlonde]

silent bumblebee wrote...
Who wants to play a game where you get hit a a sword once and die? Who would be skilled enough to play that? 

Well, I suck at twitch games, and I've played plenty of games where you press one wrong button or slip off one tiny hill into one little pool of lava and die.  It can be tons of fun, even if your skillz are not leet.

Now, in a game where you battle THOUSANDS of dudes--not so much.  But the "screw up once and die" games do have their place.

[PsychoBlonde]

In Exile wrote...

I want to see out and out visually impossible things that I know I can't see in real life. That's part of the fun.

You said it.  I'd probably die laughing if, in a game similar to this, they had a scene where you're wanting to fight but the NPC's REFUSE to engage, just keep running away from you and hiding in cover and so forth, until your PC gets fed up and yells something like "GET OUT HERE AND DIE FOR MY XP, DAMMIT!!!"

[In Exile]

silent bumblebee wrote...

I wasn't arguing for HP or saying DA:O had realistic combat. Nor did I say I ever prefer a "certain kind of fake combat." That was why I said I didn't necessarily mind all the new animations at the bottom of my post.

If I jumped the gun, I apologize. But with the "fake combat" line, I meant that if you feel that DA:O is more aesthetically pleasing, it's really more a matter of the kind of unrealistic that you like, versus wanting something to be realistic looking.

I just think asserting becasue DA is a fantasy setting that anything goes is a terrible argument. However, if you really wish me to repond to your examples, the best I think I could say in short amount of time I have is those are necesarry for halfway appealing gameplay. 

My problem with objections to the first argument is that "suspension of disbelief" is basically a fancy way of saying "individual differnece in saying wait, this is BS".  There's no reason I shouldn't find Sten using a 2H sword like a baseball bat and not getting gutted any more or less unrealistic than Lady Hawke twirling hers like a baton.

I think that once you throw out reality as a standard of comparison, the kind of unreality you like becomes subjective. And in general, the assertion that if DA is fantasy anything goes actually means this:

Once you let go of realism, you can't appeal to realism to justify a design decision. There may be some other design principle, but it needn't be realism.

Who wants to play a game where you get hit a a sword once and die? Who would be skilled enough to play that?  Not the best argument I've made for anything and I suppose there might be people who would like that kind of game. 

There are other ways to do this, though. Take Assasin's Creed. Enemies have HPs (of shorts) but when you attack then to whittle down their health, they block. When you lose health, you do it by blocking attacks with your sword. There's lots that's visually unrealistic by just holding out your sword to parry repeated blows, but it dows avoid the problem of actually getting hit and shrugging it off.

Since HP is just a numerical abstraction, you can change what you're abstracting. Instead of health, you have "fatigue" points, and the last blow you can't block and it knocks you out/kills you.

However, for normal people like you and me (you are normal right?), we are not  talented enough to pull that off. Again, I'm not saying other games are somehow the epitome of realism, especially DA:O, I just don't like this opening of the flood gates type of  justification for over the top abilities is a good means to anything.

I think what the argument does instead is that it simply removes realism as a virtue from the table. We can talk about other aesthetics, or things like "when are most people going to say this is BS and stop watching" but neither of these are really appeals to realism.

[Nilbog79]

I very much doubt many people want complete realism from this game. To have completely realistic non-gunpowder combat you'd need maybe the Total War series, and even then its realism is questionable. I believe what many people want is for combat to be more believable and less ridiculous. DAO combat was realistic enough to allow some suspension of disbelief and thus better immersion. In DA2 with the rogue jumping around like a monkey, warrior swinging a gigantic sword like it was made of cardboard and mage armed with a bazooka (that also works well in melee), the suspension of disbelief required is too great. Also, from purely aestethetic point of view it just looks silly.

[AntiChri5]

Anyone who thinks Origins combat was realistic is fooling themself

Rouges can become a puff of undetectable smoke when surrounded by five guys, Rangers can wave their arms and have a bear appear out of nowhere on the top level of a tower, Archers can fire off a single arrow that stuns an entire crowd, Warriors could shout once and have every enemy instantly turn to attack them, Bards can vomit mist that paralyses all enemies near them, Champions can shout making everyone fall on their ass...........

I could go on for a bloody eternity.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 27 février 2011 - 07:24 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Thullon wrote...

Once you add the ability to rain fire from the sky then any complaints about lack of realism don't really hold water.
It makes no sense to ignore something blatantly fantasy like magic but then be picky about how far someone can jump wearing x pounds of enchanted armor.
At that point you have to look at the context of the game itself, not the IP. We're talking about DA2, not DA:O. (Both of which are very much DA.)

There comes a point at which things are not believable. If you play a fantasy game and accept magic then setting someone on fire with magic does not mean that guy should keep on fighting like there is no tomorrow. Fire is fire and last I checked fire hurts. Hehe. Same goes for over the top melee. There is only so much I can stomach. The fact that there is also magic is unrelated.

[Ivolon]

In Exile wrote...

Ivolon wrote...
I am pretty sure that dragging down and stabbing isn´t as easyy  if you are fghiting a gainst a group of people even if you outnumber them 2:1.

Psychoblonde beat me to it, but it basically depends in part on whether or not you're willing to die. But it's more complicated than that. If you're fighting with someone, they're going to try and close in on you, especially depending on the weapon you have. If you're busy with one target and someone flanks you, that's a great way to die. So, for example, Alistair "tanking" by fighting 4 melee warriors at once is a  spectacular way to get knocked down and mudered.

Combat games in will almost always be prone to abstraction for the sake of gameplay and entertainment. But that isn´t the point, the combat in DA2 is exaggerated to Devil May Cry level. Even DMC is aware how redicoulus over the top its combat is. How should I take the story atleast somewhat serios when a huge part of the game is nothing more than a caricature.

Okay, so you're willing to grant DA:O wasn't realistic? Now we're just debating how unrealisic combat should be for people to buy it? That just comes down to preference. I personally really like DMC acrobatics. I don't want plausible looking combat - I live in the real world, I play sports, I deal with that on a daily basis. I want to see out and out visually impossible things that I know I can't see in real life. That's part of the fun.

I love the DMC combat and played every iteration of the series. But just because I like, lets say ketchup, doesn´t mean i put on every meal I eat. That would be tastless.

Modifié par Ivolon, 27 février 2011 - 07:25 .

[PrinceOfFallout13]

realism? videogames?

what?

besides as long as hp bars exists realism in a game is lulz worthy

people want a realistic game play rainbow six vegas

Modifié par PrinceOfFallout13, 27 février 2011 - 07:23 .

[PsychoBlonde]

In Exile wrote...

I think what the argument does instead is that it simply removes realism as a virtue from the table. We can talk about other aesthetics, or things like "when are most people going to say this is BS and stop watching" but neither of these are really appeals to realism.

Indeed.  There are many conventions in movies (and in games) that have nothing to do with realism but if you don't use them, people accuse you of being "unrealistic".  (The sounds made by guns are a prime example of this--guns in movies have their sounds faked, and it is so different from what real guns sound like that people often cannot recognize real-life gunfire.)  It's kind of how people keep insisting that the voice actors have "fake" accents when they actually are from that country and that is their REAL accent.

If you want to talk about goofy unrealistic conventions, look at the freaking holographic displays in Mass Effect.  We have better resolution and less waveriness in video communications NOW, but due to the convention established by Star Wars, people expect holographic displays to have ****ty resolution and waver all over the place.  YEESH.

The complaints about DAII ultimately boil down to one thing:  "THEY AREN'T USING THE CONVENTION ESTABLISHED BY ORIGINS!!!!"  Well, maybe they never intended for Origins to establish all the series "conventions".  Bioware hasn't shown any great tendency to stick with even their own conventions in the past.  (Although they do use culture-common ones sometimes.)

[Godak]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I personally love to press X to awesome, it's the same way I Jason.

You don't say.

[Jitter]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Jitter wrote...

Has anyone ever tried to run with their one arm backward at 45 , let alone with a weapon in it .

Erm, actually yes.  Running with a staff is not fun unless you're actually trying to pole-vault.  Slinging it behind your back like that (granted without QUITE so much dramatic posture, but a little cheesy dramatic posing is fun) actually makes it easier.  You only do it for very short times.

Pikes are even more interesting to learn about.  That whole carrying them pointing straight up on the march thing is for parade/showing off.  (Heaven help you if you walked under a tree.)  IIRC they were most often dragged on the ground, held in a particular way that enabled you to be ready for a surprise attack.  (It's been a while since pike practice, so the details are hazy.)  The common word for "pikeman" in German, I think, actually translates as "spear dragger".

Most training with weapons involves (at first anyway) holding the weapon in poses that feel totally unnatural and look horribly stilted and stupid, but it's because these are the positions that long periods of hard knocks have demonstrated actually allow you the best offensive and defensive options.  You get used to them with practice.  You know you're starting to get somewhere when you adopt the proper positions from habit and they feel comfortable and "correct" to you.

My personal interest is mostly academic so there's a limit to how much goofy running around in the backyard I'm willing to do.  But you learn something even trying to hit someone with a wooden sword.

Ok I hear that , im not trying to say that certain weapons can't be used and held in some way that will allow a large weapon to balance over our center of gravity , or whatever.

Im just trying to say that , when i play i don't want to see the main character as a "Avatar" so much as try to enjoy some form of "SoD" <-- tell me im the first to acronym that , "yesss".  "suspension of disbelief"

I can allow my imagination to stretch , i mean i like to play mage classes. Im down with the elemental control fire water ice poison whatever, it's that eyecandy class. But say for instance instead for a scout, not generating some purple vortex , and teleporting 8 feet , they did something like , a slow mo animation of plunging 2 daggers between the clavicles of the enemy then doing a forward flip over the enemy , reversing the grip on the daggers and then pushing their butt into the lower spine of the nemy as they use the daggers to throw the enemy backard over their heads.  for a knockdown high damage effect. 

Ok that is some crazy Dexterity going on there , and  ill buy it , and it would look danm awsome , just as great as a purple vortex and teleportaion , which kinda reeks of magic ..

A warrior slaming his axe through a opponents foot then bashing them in the face with a shield , knocking them down and lay a beating , equal eye candy , let the blood fly .... and im still with ya , cause that is one beast move , from a super beast strong individual ... 

I dont need the be swinging with the fequency of a clock , while making sounds like im carving a roast for Xmas dinner.

The changes to mee look fake , the fighting took a step back , to the point where i want to look in the top right hand corner of the screen to see if i have the high score yet. 
     

Modifié par Jitter, 27 février 2011 - 07:35 .

[Nilbog79]

Also, in DAO there was at least some effort to explain some of the more unrealistic talents and abilities (though the explanation often wasn't very convincing). They started to move away from that in Awakening and now it seems the only explanation required why a character is able to do something is that it looks cool.

[AntiChri5]

I prefer that they don't bother with some silly pretence.

[Hellosanta]

Jitter wrote...

The game has all the looks of a bad Korean Grind MMO

Ohh look my warrior is running with both arms locked backward at a 45 angle.
a la Dragon Ball Z .

Geez, I didn't even know there was a Korean MMO called Dragon ball Z (and I'm Korean who have played dozens of MMOs). This means ... you have just played something really bad, bad so bad.
I'm not really sure why people are so crazy about this combat animation thingy. I, personally, never really get to see the animation much because I'm more focussed on the battle field rather than watching my Hawke flipping around.

[Jitter]

Hellosanta wrote...

Jitter wrote...

The game has all the looks of a bad Korean Grind MMO

Ohh look my warrior is running with both arms locked backward at a 45 angle.
a la Dragon Ball Z .

Geez, I didn't even know there was a Korean MMO called Dragon ball Z (and I'm Korean who have played dozens of MMOs). This means ... you have just played something really bad, bad so bad.
I'm not really sure why people are so crazy about this combat animation thingy. I, personally, never really get to see the animation much because I'm more focussed on the battle field rather than watching my Hawke flipping around.

That wasn't means to be a racial slam so much as a style .
Im thinking of things like Aion , others....

It's just i dont mind if my warrior who is wearing 250 pounds of steel , lumbers his way into the center of combat , but when there is a literal tank , swinging a 5 foot two hander , not like wielding a magical swiss army knife. But with power swings , a 20 pound blade ripping through the air would sever small trees.

I wasn;t looking for an over the top , and lets face it forgetable effect (after 500 viewings).
Sometimes eyecandy works agains itself , making that one button effect so eye attracting ,it draws attention to the fact that you are doing it , over and over and over .... know what i mean .

Modifié par Jitter, 27 février 2011 - 08:56 .