523 réponses à ce sujet

[Darkeus]

It is not a secret that the demo is old code, and that is from a dev.

Let me see if I can find that quote...

And really, I don't see any dumbing down. My only gripe right now is the camera does not zoom back far enough.

I have some concerns, but I will wait to make an EDUCATED opinion when the full game comes out and I have had teh chance to play it. I don't think the demo starts at the very beginning of the game. People whined and whined about the demo not having spoilers and that they wouldn't play because of that. BioWare goes and gives a spoiler-free demo with NOTHING that has not been seen before. And it is old code to boot.

So we have these "educated" guesses based on a demo that does not show the full game, but somehow things have been "dumbed down". The truth is that it really seems like not much has changed....

Modifié par Darkeus, 26 février 2011 - 06:51 .

[Dubya75]

Purple People Eater wrote...

Bara Rockfall wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

There is also the fact many fans saying the demo is months and months old and if true we have no way to know what's changed/improved/fixed now until the real deal arrives.

This is a very interesting statement.  Is the demo an old build?  This would have a large impact on the view of the game created by many players.  Did you get this from a dev?  Thanks. 

Rumor is the demo build is as old as back in October. No I cant prove this, but ive read it in many places, in different threads. The Gamespot video from last week would go to helping prove this, as it looked more polished, and refined than the demo does.

I can't say exactly where I read this, but one of the devs did say that some bugs that occur in the demo, it being a months old build have been fixed for the final version.
So yes, we can safely assume that the demo is not representative of the final build.

Modifié par Dubya75, 26 février 2011 - 06:52 .

[JrayM16]

BobSmith101 wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...
I see you subscribe to the 'Sylvius the Mad' theory of dialogue selection.  However, when an NPC "misinterprets" your intent, that's because the writers wrote that response with a tone for your selection in mind.  That's the idea.

I don't mind misunderstandings, that's a part of life. Removing the ability to be misunderstood is just more dumbing down. What I do mind is not knowing what is coming out of MY characters mouth before MY character says it. Because if that is the case it's as clear as day thats not MY character but some pre-generated thing made by Bioware.

But the misunderstandin is on the part of teh player to interpret what the writer's wrote.

[hawat333]

"What's been stripped out of DA2 that was in Origins? I'd really like to know!"

Races for example.
Companion Inventory
Maybe less complex/long dialogues (which I do not know for sure, it's just the tendency of the 'same dialogue-budget & a voiced protagonist' pattern)
And to a degree, exploration.

Modifié par hawat333, 26 février 2011 - 06:53 .

[The Elder King]

Archereon wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

hhh89: I can live with that. But I'm still annoyed by the fact that I'll either have to wait for one of Hawke's variable dialogues to figure out her current persona, or count carefully.

You can check by the response Hawke will give without dialogue. For example, the phrase Hawke said when they meet Aveline, to choose where to go. But I believe that if you, for example, have first choose 7 diplomatic and 5 sarcastic, you'll have a diplomatic personality. If then after a while the full responses will be 11 diplomatic and 15 sarcastic, you'll have a sarcastic personality, and still have a persuasion bonus. But this is only my opinion, maube a dev could clarifiy that.

That's exactly what I meant by "variable dialogue." 

Sory, didn't understand.

[AkiKishi]

[quote]JrayM16 wrote...
I don't mind misunderstandings, that's a part of life. Removing the ability to be misunderstood is just more dumbing down. What I do mind is not knowing what is coming out of MY characters mouth before MY character says it. Because if that is the case it's as clear as day thats not MY character but some pre-generated thing made by Bioware.

[/quote]

But the misunderstandin is on the part of teh player to interpret what the writer's wrote.[/quote]

The character is an extension of the player, not seeing a problem here. If you are saying the writing is bad that the person reading it could misunderstand the intent behind it ? Or that the NPCs are more complex and sometimes the obvious response does not work ? Like trying to be nice to Sten having the opposite effect?

[Dubya75]

BobSmith101 wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...
I see you subscribe to the 'Sylvius the Mad' theory of dialogue selection.  However, when an NPC "misinterprets" your intent, that's because the writers wrote that response with a tone for your selection in mind.  That's the idea.

I don't mind misunderstandings, that's a part of life. Removing the ability to be misunderstood is just more dumbing down. What I do mind is not knowing what is coming out of MY characters mouth before MY character says it. Because if that is the case it's as clear as day thats not MY character but some pre-generated thing made by Bioware.

You make it sound like you had the ability to write your own responses in previous RPGs 

[Archereon]

hawat333 wrote...

"What's been stripped out of DA2 that was in Origins? I'd really like to know!"

Races for example.
Companion Inventory
Maybe less complex/long dialogues (which I do not know for sure, it's just the tendency of the 'same dialogue-budget & a voiced protagonist' pattern)
And to a degree, exploration.

Assuming the rune system is as complicated as Bioware claims (a replacement for companion inventory), then only the "Less complex/long dialogues" is necessarily dumbing down.

[rhautanen]

It's hard to draw any conclusions from the limited demo, but I think quite a few people are going in expecting it to be "dumbed down" and the demo did not show enough to DISprove that. I will not draw a premature conclusion or cancel my preorder, but if convos thru the whole game play like the demo I might in the end consider the game to be "dumbed down". That's just my personal perspective. It will be mainly about the convos and whether the choices are good and/or plentiful enough to give my PC a consistent feel for what I want that particular Hawke to be.

[Itkovian]

The irony is the complexity of the stats system as evinced by the several analysis on the matter, posts found on this very forum.

If anything, the stats system was made more abstract and requires better management to avoid wasting stat upgrades.

Itkovian

[AkiKishi]

Dubya75 wrote...
You make it sound like you had the ability to write your own responses in previous RPGs 

You had the ability to pick the one that was the best fit for your character. That goes all the way back to things like BG. It's always been a compromise of sorts.

In DA2 you don't. Not that you need it in DA2 because anything works with a pre-gen.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 26 février 2011 - 06:57 .

[KezzieZ]

Archereon wrote...

You can check by the response Hawke will give without dialogue. For example, the phrase Hawke said when they meet Aveline, to choose where to go. But I believe that if you, for example, have first choose 7 diplomatic and 5 sarcastic, you'll have a diplomatic personality. If then after a while the full responses will be 11 diplomatic and 15 sarcastic, you'll have a sarcastic personality, and still have a persuasion bonus. But this is only my opinion, maube a dev could clarifiy that.

That would be pretty cool. I hope you're right about that.

OT: I think most of the "dumbed down" talk is more of "they changed it, now it sucks." At least, that what all of the complaining seems to me now. I mean, there are a couple of changes I don't entirely like and some that I'm wary of, but the demo is not the full completed game by a long shot and I think we should try to keep that in mind.

Modifié par KezzieZ, 26 février 2011 - 06:57 .

[Manic Sheep]

The whole point in a demo is to decide whether or not you like a game or at least like the combat. We should all bear in mind that because its juts a demo and this is a rpg/strategy game that combat will likely have more depth to it than the demo once we get more skills to play around with, many of the features are locked and things that are a bit buggy may be fixed but if overall you don’t like the way the game plays in the demo, chances you’re not going to like the full game.

As for the game being dumbed down? Not much of that, some of it may have become more complicated. Pause and play and tactics are still very much there and almost exactly like DA:O

*the combat is faster and the battle felid moves faster

*there is no friendly fire until nightmare but you do seem to be fighting more hordes (at least in what we got in the demo) than DA:O and there are allot of AOE skills. Friendly fire is probably going to be much harder to manage than it was in DA:O

*not as much freedom in the tactical camera, doesn’t mean the game is dumber down. It’s just not a great camera

* Looking thru the skill trees there seems to be allot more emphasis on cross class combos than there was in DA:O.

*there wasn’t great feedback from combat but if you look at the settings, that was because it was locked off for the demo.

*haven’t seen any mention of item crafting for things like poisons and traps, so not sure if thats in the game.

[IssackHawkeFTW]

If this IS as old as October.....then all this argument Is basicly pointless...lol

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

BobSmith101 wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...
I see you subscribe to the 'Sylvius the Mad' theory of dialogue selection.  However, when an NPC "misinterprets" your intent, that's because the writers wrote that response with a tone for your selection in mind.  That's the idea.

I don't mind misunderstandings, that's a part of life. Removing the ability to be misunderstood is just more dumbing down. What I do mind is not knowing what is coming out of MY characters mouth before MY character says it. Because if that is the case it's as clear as day thats not MY character but some pre-generated thing made by Bioware.

you dont know if misunderstandings are out. the player will just now know what tone and intent hawke is conveying when he talks. in the first alot of the misunderstandings were not between your character and the companions, but between the palyer and the writers because they thought a line was delivered in one way and  the writers intended for it to be delivered in a different way.

Modifié par TGFKAMAdmaX, 26 février 2011 - 07:01 .

[JrayM16]

[quote]BobSmith101 wrote...

[quote]JrayM16 wrote...
I don't mind misunderstandings, that's a part of life. Removing the ability to be misunderstood is just more dumbing down. What I do mind is not knowing what is coming out of MY characters mouth before MY character says it. Because if that is the case it's as clear as day thats not MY character but some pre-generated thing made by Bioware.

[/quote]

But the misunderstandin is on the part of teh player to interpret what the writer's wrote.
[/quote]

The character is an extension of the player, not seeing a problem here. If you are saying the writing is bad that the person reading it could misunderstand the intent behind it ? Or that the NPCs are more complex and sometimes the obvious response does not work ? Like trying to be nice to Sten having the opposite effect?

[/quote]

No, you're misunderstanding my point.  Which could have been caused by me misunderstanding your original point so I'll try to clarify.

The writers wrote the responses in Origins with a certain tone in mind.  Thus they wrote reactions by characters with that tone in mind. 

Stuff like Sten reacting adversely to your cheery comments are not a mistake, this kind of thing is deliberate. 

It's when you choose a response that you read as nice when the character treats it as not nice.  Here, everything is going correctly except the player's interpretation of the line.

[Darkeus]

I still don't get how the conversations have been dumbed down. For example, when you go to face Marjoline for Leilana, in the end you are presented with four dialog options. In reality, they only lead you to two outcomes: you either let Marjoline go or you kill her. The way the Warden says it really means nothing. You will only ever have two outcomes....



I think people believe that the DA:O method is more complex but they are wrong. It is no different, only presented in a different format. It has to come from some hate of ME2, which surprises me since that game has so many Game of the Year and RPG of the Year awards, it is ridiculous....

[Martanek]

DA2 dumbed down?

Maybe the extremely short two-year development cycle will give you a clue why.

[IssackHawkeFTW]

On the combat: Personally, I think the combat in this one Is better. I mean, pause combat as I like too say It Is still there, but for those who like too play It more of a action RPG, are wlecome too...whats wrong with that?

[AkiKishi]

JrayM16 wrote...

No, you're misunderstanding my point.  Which could have been caused by me misunderstanding your original point so I'll try to clarify.

The writers wrote the responses in Origins with a certain tone in mind.  Thus they wrote reactions by characters with that tone in mind. 

Stuff like Sten reacting adversely to your cheery comments are not a mistake, this kind of thing is deliberate. 

It's when you choose a response that you read as nice when the character treats it as not nice.  Here, everything is going correctly except the player's interpretation of the line.

That being the case they could have simply put intent icons in the old system.

The real reason they are doing this is simple. They want to make Hawke "fantasy" Shepard and get the same sales jump from DA1-DA2 as the did from ME-ME2.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 26 février 2011 - 07:05 .

[Darkeus]

Problem is, it hasn't been.

[Dubya75]

I think my original question has been satisfied.

People who accuses DA2 of being dumbed down are simply afraid of the changes.

The game was after all built by people who know how to build RPG games. Perhaps times are a-changing and RPGs are moving on from Baldur's Gate and alas, Dragon Age Origins.

For some, yes that will be a bad thing. But for others it is a welcome change. A breath of fresh air.

Yes, change can be painful and yes, some fans will leave. But others will join the ranks of darkspawn killers.

Now can someone please get my violin...

[kgersen]

It depends how you played DAO, I tried to play DA2 how I used to play DAO (how I liked to play DAO), and not only was it hard to do but it was a shore.



Lack of tactical camera making it very hard to position your character efficiently. Also makes it very hard to target distant enemies or a specific enemy in a group. And I have shivers thinking how this would work with friendly fire on, I understand now why they remove FF on lower level and move it as an option for nightmare. The abilities and spells shown in the demo were definitely not thought to be used tactically (for example the back-flip jump) but more thought to be flashy, and most of the spells would be useless with friendly fire on. And finally the way the characters are controlled, if you let tactics actives then the character jump everywhere on they own and do whatever they please, and if you disable the tactics and try to control them one by one like I liked to do in DAO then it become cringe inducing, tell them to attack a specific enemy, un-pause, they attack said enemy for 1 second and stops so you have to re-pause, re-tell them to attack the same enemy (if you are lucky enough to manage to select it again) and remove the pause again hopping they will attack it for a little longer.



In the end I retried playing the demo like I played ME2, concentrating on my main character, letting the other live their live, only telling them who to attack and when to take a potion from time to time... and the game was no longer tedious and a lot easier to play, for me it's obvious it's the way DA2 was meant to be played.



The problem is that I liked how DAO played, I preferred a more tactical approach were I was really controlling all my group like it was possible to do in DAO, so in that aspect DA2 is definitely a a step down for me.



And I am worried about the dialogue and the lack of companion equipments... but it's hard to tell from the demo.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

BobSmith101 wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

No, you're misunderstanding my point.  Which could have been caused by me misunderstanding your original point so I'll try to clarify.

The writers wrote the responses in Origins with a certain tone in mind.  Thus they wrote reactions by characters with that tone in mind. 

Stuff like Sten reacting adversely to your cheery comments are not a mistake, this kind of thing is deliberate. 

It's when you choose a response that you read as nice when the character treats it as not nice.  Here, everything is going correctly except the player's interpretation of the line.

That being the case they could have simply put intend icons in the old system.

The real reason they are doing this is simple. They want to make Hawke "fantasy" Shepard and get the same sales jump from DA1-DA2 as the did from ME-ME2.

or the simple reason is that the new system better conveys options to select. like how some players when trying to investigate things accidently ended convos in the first. so it has a much better interface and is less clunky.

[Darkeus]

Well that is funny, I played it liek I played DA:O and found it to work five times better and faster.