523 réponses à ce sujet

[F4d3s]

well im the one who created the friendly fire post and used the word 'dumbed down' for a lack of a better word and perhaps should have used different words. So I'll retract that and use 'simplified' and 'trivialized' instead. Granted, it it just the demo but so far these are the examples I/others have found that may or may not exist in full game:

1. dialogue wheel has become way over-simplified with paraphrasing
2. friendly fire damage not being an option except for NM nor does it knock down party members
3. abilities seem to have been gimped
4. some abilities/talents that had impact on choices in DAO may or may not be in DA2
5. you can only play as a human, your choices have been reduced
6. shorter game length compared to DAO from what has been said
7. seems like armor penetration is no longer considered
8. lack of chat with companions in the field
9. weapon restrictions (ie dont think mage can use a bow)
10 removal of some skills
11. restrictive camera angles

again, we are only judging the demo. Im still going to get the game and make my final judgements then but for those RPG purists, you cannot deny that it seems Bioware is going away from its core/loyal audience and seems to be catering to to a more over-the-top, action oriented, hack and slash and arcade style of game.

Modifié par F4d3s, 26 février 2011 - 07:28 .

[rhautanen]

Cake sucks. I want pie

[v_ware]

rhautanen wrote...

Cake sucks. I want pie

Only cake, no pie. 

[Dubya75]

Drake Sigar wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...

So many people are complaining about DA2 saying it is "dumbed down". I really don't get where this opinion originated from.
None of us have played the full game so how do we know it is "dumbed down"?  
What's been stripped out of DA2 that was in Origins? I'd really like to know!

It’s all in my blog

I’m getting tired of hearing people say things like “wait for the full game.” The demo is there to give us an accurate impression on the full game, that’s the entire point of a demo. Do I need to start acting like one of those Wikipedia/dictionary jerks and pasting definitions of the word demo?

Whatever the definition of demo is, writing "Dragon Age 2 sucks" in your blog just proves that you judge a book by its cover.
That statement will convince very few people given the fact you've not actually played the FULL game.

Modifié par Dubya75, 26 février 2011 - 07:29 .

[Drake Sigar]

Darkeus wrote...

Demos are not there to give you an accurate anything....

Where did people get that idea from.

The demo gives a taste of combat and a taste of the conversation wheel.  How is that the full game? How is that an accurate portrayal of teh full game? It is not and stop imagining that it is...

There have been many games that have been different than the full game. In fact, last I checked, most demos SAY THAT EXPLICITLY IN THE TITLE SCREEN.  Most demos say "This is not the full game and so things may be different or changed from the full game."

A demo is usually old code and NOT representative of teh full game.... They never have been.

Wow. Just… wow. From your definitions, demos are completely pointless.

[DJ0000]

I don't think it has been dumbed down. It's just the same but with much fore falshy animations, whether they are good or bad is a personal view. Personally I found it a little weird because I wasn't expecting it from a Dragon Age game but I actually quite like it.



The cambat is actually just the same though, at the beginning of origins when you only had one talent you had to just auto attack over and over and the same occurs here. I think the depth comes when you unlock more talents and spells just as in origins.



I seem to be on the other side of the fence to most people though in that I wasn't planning on buying the game untill it was cheaper but the demo impressed me into buying it right away.

[rhautanen]

you cannot deny that it seems Bioware is going away from its core/loyal audience and seems to be catering to to a more over-the-top, action oriented, hack and slash and arcade style of game.

There is no "seems" about it. That was a stated direction of DA2. Make it appeal to a wider audience, and that's who the wider audience is.

[Darkeus]

Drake Sigar wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

Demos are not there to give you an accurate anything....

Where did people get that idea from.

The demo gives a taste of combat and a taste of the conversation wheel.  How is that the full game? How is that an accurate portrayal of teh full game? It is not and stop imagining that it is...

There have been many games that have been different than the full game. In fact, last I checked, most demos SAY THAT EXPLICITLY IN THE TITLE SCREEN.  Most demos say "This is not the full game and so things may be different or changed from the full game."

A demo is usually old code and NOT representative of teh full game.... They never have been.

Wow. Just… wow. From your definitions, demos are completely pointless.

Most of them are....  Those are the facts.

Seriously, go download some demos and look at the disclaimer every demo has.  If you are missing the disclaimer, you just are not paying attention or you don't want to....

Modifié par Darkeus, 26 février 2011 - 07:33 .

[JrayM16]

F4d3s wrote...


well im the one who created the friendly fire post and used the word 'dumbed down' for a lack of a better word and perhaps should have used different words. So I'll retract that and use 'simplified' and 'trivialized' instead. Granted, it it just the demo but so far these are the examples I/others have found that may or may not exist in full game:

1. dialogue wheel has become way over-simplified with paraphrasing
2. friendly fire damage not being an option except for NM nor does it knock down party members
3. abilities seem to have been gimped
4. some abilities/talents that had impact on choices in DAO may or may not be in DA2
5. you can only play as a human, your choices have been reduced
6. shorter game length compared to DAO from what has been said
7. seems like armor penetration is no longer considered
8. lack of chat with companions in the field
9. weapon restrictions (ie dont think mage can use a bow)
10 removal of some skills
11. restrictive camera angles

again, we are only judging the demo. Im still going to get the game and make my final judgements then but for those RPG purists, you cannot deny that it seems Bioware is going away from its core/loyal audience and seems to be catering to to a more over-the-top, action oriented, hack and slash and arcade style of game.

1. Disagree.  Matter of opinion.
2. Agree.  Should be toggle.
3. Disagree.  Abilities actually seem good and ahve in depth trees.
4. Hmm, not sure Ia gree with your assessment of DA:o in this case apart from coercion.
5. I think this could make for a stronger overall stroy, but I do miss the choice.
6. Quality>Quantity.  This is dependent on the game being good ofcourse but that's my principle.
7. Not sure.
8. I do miss this.
9. This is kinda lame.  Not sure why I'd want mage to use a bow though(odd example)
10. Removal of all skills.  This is kinda weird. 
11.  I sympathize, though I never used said camera angles.


I agree with many of your points, disagree with others.  I say you have amde the most compelling argument from your side of the debate thus far.

[Nirala]

I don't know... I found the demo utterly boring, but demos are demos. Who knows exactly how the real thing will be. I sure hope there will be a little more plot and I hope I will actually have to think about how my actions affect the story in the full version. As for dumbed-down...?? I felt like I was watching a snipit and fighting a couple darkspawn here and there. Bravo to BioWare and EA on the graphics, style, returning voice actors and ease-of-gameplay tho. I'm still looking forward to it just 'cause I'm a BioWare junkie. Will have to wait and see if this is Dragon-Age-for-Dummies tho.

[Yoshileon]

Darkeus wrote...

rhautanen wrote...

The way the Warden says it really means nothing. You will only ever have two outcomes....

It means nothing to YOU. Some people are different than you, and it does mean something to them.

Boy, you missed that point completely.... 

Point of the matter, since you were not able to comprehend it, is that it doesn't matter if it matters to you how the Warden says it.  In the end, there are only two outcomes, no matter what you want.

Period, simple, no way to get around it.  No matter how teh Warden says it, it will ALWAYS result in one of two options.

Why care about the tone of a response that means nothing to the actual game since you still get one of two outcomes.  The game cares not what you wanted to say, it simply goes "This response was pressed, this response is given...."

LOL the thing is that YOU missed it.
It's not about the two options. I don't need more results than two, but I care about the tone of my character's response. I want to build a more complex character IN MY HEAD than I can build by the game engine.

I don't want more results. i want more options to get to those results.

[Drake Sigar]

Dubya75 wrote...
Whatever the definition of demo is, writing "Dragon Age 2 sucks" in your blog just proves that you judge a book by its cover.
That statement will convince very few people given the fact you've not actually played the FULL game.

Woah there! You do not get to say “don’t judge a book by its cover” and then go ahead and do exactly that from a blog title. That’s called hypocrisy Mr Dubya.

Darkeus wrote...

Drake Sigar wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

Demos are not there to give you an accurate anything....

Where did people get that idea from.

The demo gives a taste of combat and a taste of the conversation wheel.  How is that the full game? How is that an accurate portrayal of teh full game? It is not and stop imagining that it is...

There have been many games that have been different than the full game. In fact, last I checked, most demos SAY THAT EXPLICITLY IN THE TITLE SCREEN.  Most demos say "This is not the full game and so things may be different or changed from the full game."

A demo is usually old code and NOT representative of teh full game.... They never have been.

Wow. Just… wow. From your definitions, demos are completely pointless.

Most of them are....  Those are the facts.

Seriously, go download some demos and look at the disclaimer every demo has.  If you are missing the disclaimer, you just are not paying attention or you don't want to....

That disclaimer is to protect the developers from false advertising because there are likely to be little changes in the full version, but the demo should still very much represent it. If demos are as useless as you say, they wouldn’t waste time making one in the first place. The game is out in 2 weeks for god sakes, how much could they possibily change between now and then?

Modifié par Drake Sigar, 26 février 2011 - 07:38 .

[rhautanen]

At the end of the day it's still BioWare. Even if it is "dumbed down" it will be way better (and better value) than many many games I've bought from other developers. BW is the only one I will pre-order from (except Civ which is/was a special case).

[Tleining]

@ rhautanen

.. while still appealing to the old tactic-rpg crowd.



@ BobSmith101

single protagonist - Jade Empire, KotoR

fixed outfits for companions - Jade Empire

wheel - Alpha Protocol



oh look, Bioware is going back to the basics

[JasmoVT]

Problem is you cannot properly demo an rpg without providing a couple of hours of playing time. It is "role playing" and there is no way you can get a feel for that in a short non-cntiguous set of segments like the demo. It would have been great it they let us play the first segment of the game, but they did not go that route. One gets a better sense of the game watching the various Mike Laidlaw interviews than one does from the demo. So I will trust Bioware based on their previous games, wait for my signature addition to arrive and by the following Monday I will have formed an opinion.

[Dubya75]

Drake Sigar wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...
Whatever the definition of demo is, writing "Dragon Age 2 sucks" in your blog just proves that you judge a book by its cover.
That statement will convince very few people given the fact you've not actually played the FULL game.

Woah there! You do not get to say “don’t judge a book by its cover” and then go ahead and do exactly that from a blog title. That’s called hypocrisy Mr Dubya.

Darkeus wrote...

Drake Sigar wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

Demos are not there to give you an accurate anything....

Where did people get that idea from.

The demo gives a taste of combat and a taste of the conversation wheel.  How is that the full game? How is that an accurate portrayal of teh full game? It is not and stop imagining that it is...

There have been many games that have been different than the full game. In fact, last I checked, most demos SAY THAT EXPLICITLY IN THE TITLE SCREEN.  Most demos say "This is not the full game and so things may be different or changed from the full game."

A demo is usually old code and NOT representative of teh full game.... They never have been.

Wow. Just… wow. From your definitions, demos are completely pointless.

Most of them are....  Those are the facts.

Seriously, go download some demos and look at the disclaimer every demo has.  If you are missing the disclaimer, you just are not paying attention or you don't want to....

That disclaimer is to protect the developers from false advertising because there are likely to be little changes in the full version, but the demo should still very much represent it. If demos are as useless as you say, they wouldn’t waste time making one in the first place.

How on God's green earth do you make up your mind about a game with at least 30 hours gameplay from a 40 minute demo of which half of it is narrative, thus leaving you with about 20 minutes of gameplay?
If you can explain that to be then I will be fully satisfied.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

BobSmith101 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

@ Bob
what specific thing are you talking about in the interview??? because i cant recall what you are trying to point out???

http://dualshockers....fect-interview/

It's especially funny when you read the tag line on the page.

"Bioware: Dragon Age 2 Will Not Experience a Mass Effect (Interview)"

wheel mass effect
single protagonist mass effect
fixed outfits for companions.... um mass effect.
Feel free to add to the list if you like.

the wheel does not strip anything though. it merely reformats it so that it is easier to understand. the other two points i can agree with however. and i do not like that they seem to have taken out some of the details of the enviroment because they were not noticed by some. however i cannot comment on that any further because i have not seen many of the enviroments present.

[Darkeus]

Yoshileon wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

rhautanen wrote...

The way the Warden says it really means nothing. You will only ever have two outcomes....

It means nothing to YOU. Some people are different than you, and it does mean something to them.

Boy, you missed that point completely.... 

Point of the matter, since you were not able to comprehend it, is that it doesn't matter if it matters to you how the Warden says it.  In the end, there are only two outcomes, no matter what you want.

Period, simple, no way to get around it.  No matter how teh Warden says it, it will ALWAYS result in one of two options.

Why care about the tone of a response that means nothing to the actual game since you still get one of two outcomes.  The game cares not what you wanted to say, it simply goes "This response was pressed, this response is given...."

LOL the thing is that YOU missed it.
It's not about the two options. I don't need more results than two, but I care about the tone of my character's response. I want to build a more complex character IN MY HEAD than I can build by the game engine.

I don't want more results. i want more options to get to those results.

That is personal preference.  That is not required for you.  That is something you want.  In reality, that is just superfluous and not required to make a good game.  More options does not autmoatically mean better.

But it has NO, and let me repeat NO effect on gameplay or the outcome of the encounter. 

It doesn't matter what you WANT to do in your head.  We are talking abou if a game is dumbed down or not.  Just because a game does not cater to what YOU want to do in a game has nothing to do if it is dumbed down or not.

As we see and nobody has been able to disprove, the new system in DA2 does not dumb down conversation since it functions the same as DA:O, only in a different format.  The gameplay has not changed.  Your personal preference has nothing to do with that.

[hawat333]

Yoshileon wrote...
I don't want more results. i want more options to get to those results.

I wouldn't mind some more results either.

Modifié par hawat333, 26 février 2011 - 07:46 .

[Darkeus]

Drake Sigar wrote...

Dubya75 wrote...
Whatever the definition of demo is, writing "Dragon Age 2 sucks" in your blog just proves that you judge a book by its cover.
That statement will convince very few people given the fact you've not actually played the FULL game.

Woah there! You do not get to say “don’t judge a book by its cover” and then go ahead and do exactly that from a blog title. That’s called hypocrisy Mr Dubya.

Darkeus wrote...

Drake Sigar wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

Demos are not there to give you an accurate anything....

Where did people get that idea from.

The demo gives a taste of combat and a taste of the conversation wheel.  How is that the full game? How is that an accurate portrayal of teh full game? It is not and stop imagining that it is...

There have been many games that have been different than the full game. In fact, last I checked, most demos SAY THAT EXPLICITLY IN THE TITLE SCREEN.  Most demos say "This is not the full game and so things may be different or changed from the full game."

A demo is usually old code and NOT representative of teh full game.... They never have been.

Wow. Just… wow. From your definitions, demos are completely pointless.

Most of them are....  Those are the facts.

Seriously, go download some demos and look at the disclaimer every demo has.  If you are missing the disclaimer, you just are not paying attention or you don't want to....

That disclaimer is to protect the developers from false advertising because there are likely to be little changes in the full version, but the demo should still very much represent it. If demos are as useless as you say, they wouldn’t waste time making one in the first place. The game is out in 2 weeks for god sakes, how much could they possibily change between now and then?

Buddy, the game is code from October. That is a well known fact.  I am sure many, many things have changed since OCTOBER!

Which again proves my point.  Demos are not representative of full games.....   How can you say that a demo of code from OCTOBER is going to be the full game since DA2 didn't go gold until last week or so??

Seriously....

[LoK-y-Yo]

the conversations is dumbed in the way that before you could choose for a response like 4 or 5 options usually and now it's been reduced as far as we have seen to 3. I don't know much about statistics, but there is a difference between the possibles outcomes from 4-5 options (and so on) than from 3

(make a tree with 3 and 5 points and from each "point" make another 3 or 4-5 points and do that again, count the difference of outcomes)

Modifié par LoK-y-Yo, 26 février 2011 - 07:44 .

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

LoK-y-Yo wrote...

the conversations is dumbed in the way that before you could choose for a response like 4 or 5 options usually and now it's been reduced as far as we have seen to 3. I don't know much about statistics, but there is a difference between the possibles outcomes from 4-5 options (and so on) than from 3

bioware has stated that there will be quite a few instances where where there are more options than 3. this will be on the other side of the wheel.

[Drake Sigar]

Dubya75 wrote...
How on God's green earth do you make up your mind about a game with at least 30 hours gameplay from a 40 minute demo of which half of it is narrative, thus leaving you with about 20 minutes of gameplay?
If you can explain that to be then I will be fully satisfied.

The same way I can make up my mind from reading a reviewer’s impressions? What do you suggest, thoroughly explore every piece of media and ignore the very services (demos and reviews) that are designed to help select the right products for me in this precarious economic time? Not only would I go bankrupt, but I’d have to devote my entire life to it.

[LoK-y-Yo]

I said as far as we have seen. But if they said so, when I see it I will change my mind about that. Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to the game

[Darkeus]

But no, there is not. Again the Marjoline encounter example. There are four options of what to say yet only two outcomes....



You either kill Marjoline or you let her go. No matter if what you pick out of the four options, you still only have two outcomes.



And your response has no other effect except that they lead to one of two outcomes....