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The Champion started as a coward.


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#226
JrayM16

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BobSmith101 wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

He's either a coward or not depending on how you roleplay it. YOu could roleplay that he ran out of cowardice or out of pragmatism.

It's up to the player.


Reasons don't matter its the action that makes you a coward not the reason.

It's even more ironic with the "fight like a Spartan" tagline.

Spartan women would tell their husbands and sons - before they were to head off to war - "With your shield, or on it."


No.  What if my Hawke were to justify retreat by the desire to protect his family?  Is that cowardice?  I'm not calling Hawke's actions brave but you can't generalize everyone's Hawke's motivations since they are ours to roleplay as we see fit.

"Fight Like a Spartan" is marketing and has no ebaring on anything.

#227
Vhaius

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Even Grey Wardens fight with an army at their backs.

EDIT: A massive rout of the army would've been expected, after seeing Cailan get crushed and tossed aside by an ogre, then seeing Duncan and the rest of the Wardens get slaughtered.

Modifié par Vhaius, 27 février 2011 - 01:11 .


#228
In Exile

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You know who else got the **** out of dodge while the going was good? The Warden and Alistair. They avoided the horde, ran straight through and away from Lothering, and went about collecting an army because they had a legal document allowing them to do it. The only reason they didn't flee Ferelden (according to David Gaidner) was because Duncan was dead. Allegedly, Duncan would have written off the entire country and gone to collect more Wardens. So apparently Duncan is also a coward.

#229
TheCreeper

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You know a lot of you people have very alarming views of how battles should be fought and what is and is not a coward, What Happened at Ostagar was a massive loss that cost Fereldan almost all it's grey Wardens, it's King, most of a not small army, and the events of that battle led the country to civil war, and you are accusing people lucky enough to survive of being cowards.

Modifié par TheCreeper, 27 février 2011 - 01:12 .


#230
JrayM16

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In Exile wrote...

You know who else got the **** out of dodge while the going was good? The Warden and Alistair. They avoided the horde, ran straight through and away from Lothering, and went about collecting an army because they had a legal document allowing them to do it. The only reason they didn't flee Ferelden (according to David Gaidner) was because Duncan was dead. Allegedly, Duncan would have written off the entire country and gone to collect more Wardens. So apparently Duncan is also a coward.


QFT

#231
Vhaius

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TheCreeper wrote...

You know a lot of you people have very alarming views of how battles should be fought and what is and is not a coward, What Happened at Ostagar was a massive loss that cost Fereldan almost all it's grey Wardens, it's King, most of a not small army, and the events of that battle led the country to civil war, and you are accusing people lucky enough to survive of being cowards.

I get the feeling they watch too much 300 and The Alamo.

#232
panamakira

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I guess so did my HNF warden. Didn't Hawke ran away when they were being massacred by darkspawn? I remember in Lothering or something, somebody mentioned to the warden that a few people escaped the darkspawn. Nobody was like omg coward!!!! Loghain pretty much ruined everyone's party.....

#233
errant_knight

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Tleining wrote...

@ errant_knight
interesting point, two things to ponder, though:
One: you don't know what your family will face in Kirkwall. So sending your Mother and Sister to a City full of Templars, alone, odd choice ;)
two: would your Hawke really consider fighting under Loghain? Because at that point, there is no alternative. Anora is Queen, Loghain has the strongest Army, and they don't know what the Wardens are doing.


Good point about the templars in Kirkwall. My Hawke would probably feel the need to see that his/her mother and sister were safe.

Also a good point about Loghain. Carver and/or Hawke were at Ostagar. That means he/they were either on the side that was abandoned and managed to escape death, or were part of Loghain's army. If they were part of Loghain's army, they've already decided not to follow him anymore, and if they were abandoned on the field, they probably wouldn't want to fight under his banner.

#234
errant_knight

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BobSmith101 wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Wynne Survived that Battle, are you calling Wynne a Coward?


Wynne "died" in the battle.

No, Wynne 'died' after the battle at the circle tower and rejoined the fight as soon as possible. Not that that has any bearing on this..

#235
TheCreeper

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Vhaius wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

You know a lot of you people have very alarming views of how battles should be fought and what is and is not a coward, What Happened at Ostagar was a massive loss that cost Fereldan almost all it's grey Wardens, it's King, most of a not small army, and the events of that battle led the country to civil war, and you are accusing people lucky enough to survive of being cowards.

I get the feeling they watch too much 300 and The Alamo.

A last Stand in a situation where it would change nothing (which is exactly what  A Last Stand at Ostagar would do) is the height of pointlessness.

#236
Saibh

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Vhaius wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

You know a lot of you people have very alarming views of how battles should be fought and what is and is not a coward, What Happened at Ostagar was a massive loss that cost Fereldan almost all it's grey Wardens, it's King, most of a not small army, and the events of that battle led the country to civil war, and you are accusing people lucky enough to survive of being cowards.

I get the feeling they watch too much 300 and The Alamo.


Pretty much. I think people have been corrupted by Hollywood versions of last stands, and how that's portrayed as this ultimate heroic thing to do. In a sense, it's a heroic, but only if you do any good. If you're just going to make your final stand on the basis that you don't want to run away, you're no hero. You're just commiting suicide.

Had the Warden decided to run back to Ostagar, she would have died. And if she died, she would have doomed Ferelden. Hawke has no where to go. As far as she or Carver knows, Loghain betrayed the king. If any documentation on who survived is intact, they're screwed. Hell, Arl Howe was given leave to torture a nobleman's son because his nanny's son was there when Loghain abandoned the king.

So, they can't join the army. What can they do? Protect their family. Ferelden is no longer safe for them. Either two of them were at Ostagar and one is a mage, or two of them are mages and one was at Ostagar.

#237
Vhaius

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errant_knight wrote...

Tleining wrote...

@ errant_knight
interesting point, two things to ponder, though:
One: you don't know what your family will face in Kirkwall. So sending your Mother and Sister to a City full of Templars, alone, odd choice ;)
two: would your Hawke really consider fighting under Loghain? Because at that point, there is no alternative. Anora is Queen, Loghain has the strongest Army, and they don't know what the Wardens are doing.


Good point about the templars in Kirkwall. My Hawke would probably feel the need to see that his/her mother and sister were safe.

Also a good point about Loghain. Carver and/or Hawke were at Ostagar. That means he/they were either on the side that was abandoned and managed to escape death, or were part of Loghain's army. If they were part of Loghain's army, they've already decided not to follow him anymore, and if they were abandoned on the field, they probably wouldn't want to fight under his banner.

They served under captain Varel, Varel was part of the King's Army, not Loghains.

#238
Soul Cool

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Is a tactical withdrawal in the face of an implacable enemy force made up of mindless killing machines that has unlimited moral being egged on by a mad god ever really a bad idea?

#239
Pedro Costa

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itt: butthurt warden fan(s) still annoyed Hawke has the spotlight for this one game.

Seriously, give it up. The King was dead, betrayed by his most trusted ally, the Grey Wardens massacred, you know, the guys whose sole purpose is to *kill* darkspawn, and you're expecting two people, two regular humans, to fight to the bitter end and leave their family (an elderly mother and a younger sister) to whatever luck could befall them?
Again, let me get this clear: the Grey Wardens, men and women whose *sole* and *only* purpuse in life is to *killl* darkspawn were _dead_, except for two, whose saving grace was a Witch of the Wilds.
*The* people that could actually have a chance to defeat the darkspawn and end the Blight were *defeated*, and two regular Men are suppose to just sit there and wait to die because, apparently, that's the right thing to do?
That's not bravery, that's stupidity.

Nevermind the fact that choosing death while leaving your family to their fate is even worse.

Not to say Hawke's a big damn hero, just that Hawke actually feels like a flesh and blood human being with a brain instead of running on rule of cool.

#240
upsettingshorts

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Also know why the Spartans held to the last man at Thermopylae? Well, for one it was a strategic necessity, the longer they held the longer the rest of Greece could prepare. Secondly it was because they were surrounded and unable to retreat anyway.



There are examples of the Spartans avoiding battle entirely, like when they were invited to join Alexander's conquest of Asia and they took a pass. Push a button, watch someone else conquer half of Asia happens while you hang out in Southern Greece.

#241
Ziggeh

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

There are examples of the Spartans avoiding battle entirely, like when they were invited to join Alexander's conquest of Asia and they took a pass. Push a button, watch someone else conquer half of Asia happens while you hang out in Southern Greece.

They were pretty keen on the phalanx, but I'm assuming "standing in a line and shuffling forward jabbing a spear about" wasn't what they were going for.

#242
Giga Drill BREAKER

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plus they would not even of been at Thermopylae only that if offered them a tactical advantage against the persians

#243
Vitor de Aguiar

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He ran because his power isn't over nine thousand! (LOL)

#244
PPF65

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Vitor D. Aguiar wrote...

He ran because his power isn't over nine thousand! (LOL)


Yeah, Hawke's kamehameha wave is kinda pathetic at the beginning.

#245
cool74

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He was not a cowered he lived to fight another day. Also, he did not run away like some one crying for they mama he did a tactical retreat completely different.

#246
Veex

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Cowardice would have been deserting before the battle, or fleeing at the first sign of Darkspawn.

#247
cool74

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DarkLord_PT wrote...

itt: butthurt warden fan(s) still annoyed Hawke has the spotlight for this one game.

Seriously, give it up. The King was dead, betrayed by his most trusted ally, the Grey Wardens massacred, you know, the guys whose sole purpose is to *kill* darkspawn, and you're expecting two people, two regular humans, to fight to the bitter end and leave their family (an elderly mother and a younger sister) to whatever luck could befall them?
Again, let me get this clear: the Grey Wardens, men and women whose *sole* and *only* purpuse in life is to *killl* darkspawn were _dead_, except for two, whose saving grace was a Witch of the Wilds.
*The* people that could actually have a chance to defeat the darkspawn and end the Blight were *defeated*, and two regular Men are suppose to just sit there and wait to die because, apparently, that's the right thing to do?
That's not bravery, that's stupidity.

Nevermind the fact that choosing death while leaving your family to their fate is even worse.

Not to say Hawke's a big damn hero, just that Hawke actually feels like a flesh and blood human being with a brain instead of running on rule of cool.


Yes good on him. Trust me I am intellagent enough that I could see the becon light with no help this is what my mind would think. **** we have got to get out of here now.......Must grab brother and mabey someone eles to help get us out. Then I would precede to help anyone and everyone I could as I ran out of there and if they followed me great if they went to Logaian great agian if they got out while they could great agian. We do not know if he saved anyone eles. What you call cowerdice I call natural instincts and intellagence.B)

#248
Reptillius

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Ok. Let's clarify a few facts while we're sitting here and looking at all of this.

First of All. Morrigan and Flemeth do not say everybody is dead. They only give an "all dead" response to a specific question. the Fate of the King and the Grey Wardens. Which in that context "all dead" is true. It is not in response to all of those fighting at Ostagar.

There are a number of survivors from the fight at Ostagar mentioned in various points of the game for many a various reason. The more significant ones have most if not all been touched upon by other posters in this thread. There is no continuity or contradiction to the lore of Origions on this point. To Further Prove this. We can look at the fact that Loghain was cold hearted and pragmatic in his ambitions to the point that he left a group of armed soldiers in Lothering waiting for signs of Grey Wardens so he clearly knew there were survivors and stragglers and he wanted to make sure the ones that worried him most didn't get away while others passed through lothering.

Now. As for the Issue of leaving Fereldan. The demo even answers this depending on the choices you make in the dialogue options. First their mother points out that they lost everything they'd worked so hard to do and build in Lothering. Second she makes a mention of family and an Estate in Kirkwall. So they are not just running away from something. They are running to something as well. That something is a reasonably safe haven in the Templar ridden and dangerous world of Thedas so they can collect themselves and prepare to start over.

Finally as for Cowardice...Hawke and his siblings have no standing obligation or loyalty to Fereldan besides in the fact that fighting helped their family. With The Death of the King and a number of the grey wardens. Reguardless of where they were in that battle. Their Loyalty is at an end. In the same sense that a Mercenary is not a coward for not doing something that you don't pay him to do. Hawke and Carver are not cowards because it's clear their interests in joining the fight at Ostagar are no longer valid and their family lives the closes to the present location of the forming blight. A Location that by all accounts calculations can be outright said not that It might be covered by the blight but that it will be covered by the blight. In fact there are hints of this in the histerics of certain of the refuge's in Lothering when the Warden passes through.

I like Hawke because even when he's being a hero there is just something solid about his choices that he makes. You can really think about them from an objective viewpoint and understand why he would make them even if you wouldn't. but we get an added advantage that from his flight from Fereldan and everything his family has lost there we actually do get to make many of those choices and make them even more our own.

I personally am going to enjoy my playthrough and I think I'm going to be the Snarkiest Hawke I can be because it suits me well. But I will certainly make a diplomatic and well meaning Hawke at some point as well.

edit:fixed a couple of small clerical errors made from typing it all up at midnight after a very long day at work.

Modifié par Reptillius, 27 février 2011 - 08:12 .


#249
borelocin

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Yeah he ran away from a bijillion darkspawn after Loghain left everyone to die - the pansy !

#250
GodWood

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AustinKain wrote...
Everyone is missing the point. How many times did someone say that there were no surviors in Ostagar only to be told later there were.
There are plot holes in the story(ies).

I believe it was stated that no Grey Wardens survived Ostagar, not that no one survived.