11 réponses à ce sujet

[Exyle19]

Apologizing in advance for the wall of text.

Let me first start by saying that I have been, and will continue to be a massive fan of BioWare and everything they've done, and continue to do. BioWare is one of only two modern developers (the other is Blizzard) that has managed to win my support and trust in all their projects by, to my mind, creating new IPs and lavishing upon them the same attention to detail, narrative and gameplay that they would a proven earner, and creating sequels that improve upon these strengths while addressing their weaknesses.
Anything created by BioWare immediately grabs my attention, and to this day they are the only company for which I will give-up my hard earned dollars before reading any reviews, or even playing a demo.

I think it speaks volumes about the company, that even in today's modern age when piracy is so rampant, so easy, and so practical (from a consumer financial standpoint), that they are able to run a successful business off of (largely) single-player experiences alone, as multi-player tends to be the gate through which pirates cannot pass.

I pre-ordered DA2 back in January, and just the other day payed it all off. I entertain no thoughts at all of cancelling this pre-order based on these concerns, and simply cannot wait to get my hands on their latest creation. This thread simply stems from my desire to express myself, and perhaps help shed some light on other's complaints as I've found most of them were poorly detailed and came off as very reactionary, though all the same, I think some of their points are vaild. BioWare has a proven track record of listening to their fans, and my only hope is that one of the developers will take the time to read this post, and at some point in the creation of DA3 think of it, if only for a second, in order to create a more informed design decision which I don't believe can ever be a bad thing.

My concerns are not with the dialogue wheel. At first, I wasn't a huge fan, worrying that BioWare having struck gold  with the Mass Effect series, would opt to simply produce a clone army of this game since that would be the easier option as opposed to creating new and exciting properties. Upon further consideration however, I find this to be unlikely. The amount of effort they put into the world-building of Dragon Age, the sheer amount of lore alone, makes me think that they would be unlikely to compromise this creation in favour of 'selling-out', for lack of a better term. I think the dialogue wheel is a pretty natural evolution, and in no way constitutes 'dumbing down' for the console market. Someone in another thread pointed out that by and large, the amount of dialogue options remain roughly the same. 3-4 questions, one mean progression, one nice progression, one neutral, and one to end it). I prefer playing my characters as extensions of myself, as I'm sure many of you as well, but I've never really had a problem with not knowing what it was my character was going to say. I found Mass Effect was pretty effective at conveying the overall tone of your character's response, and my initial impressions of DA2 with the icons seem to have improved this.

This is the view I take: In DA:O we were able to determine the choice of words, but not the tone or intent behind these words, hence all the stories of "stumbling" into a romance with Zevran. In DA2, we decide the tone and overall intent instead, which in my opinion helps with the emotional engagement of NPCs since every choice essentially becomes an 'emotional' one.

My concern is also not the combat, since from what I've been able to gather from the demo actually appears to be largely unchanged. It is still not doubt a Dragon Age game, preserving the tactical and planning aspects of Origins. Really, all that appears to have been changed is the combat animations, and the elimination of the initial 'setting up, shuffling' ritual of DA:O before swords locked. Auto-attack is now much faster, and it seems the ability cooldown times have been slightly reduced, conversely however, it also appears damage was reduced or health was increased, I'm not sure which. What I find the end result to be however, is a much more stylized, flashier, and fun to watch version of DA:O combat. I didn't bother grabbing a stopwatch, but the engagements in the demo seem to line up pretty well with what I remember from early combat in DA:O. They even tend to play out the same way I find; I at least I find my tactics have gone largely unchanged besides targeting where I estimate the enemies will be, as opposed to locking on to an individual for AoE.

My issue isn't the UI either, which while I'm not a huge fan of the EXACT implementation, I do like that it's streamlined and now takes up less space on screen, leaving me free to appreciate the on-screen happenings. I found in DA:O I would every now and then lose track of my NPC's health while managing the battlefield and every now and then having a companion go down unexpectedly. In DA2, I am now pretty much always peripherally aware of how everyone's doing, and the quick-heal button really helps with the flow of combat.

Really, my real concern is about the overall tone of the world, and by estimation seems to be at the core of most forumite's complaints.

I'm sure some of you remember back when DA:O was first coming out, all sorts of (favourable) comparisons to George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series and this is what the greatest appeal of DA:O was to me. If I'm completely honest, Dragon Age: Origins had very few (if any) gameplay innovations. The overall structure had been used many times before, by BioWare no less, in KoTOR and NWN. In my opinion, Origins used an old structure, although executed with and outstanding degree of competence. I don't really think this needs further explanation.

What made Dragon Age unique (in a video game) was to me, the grounded setting, subdued and dare I even say 'gritty' feel of the world we were in. Despite having dragons, elves, dwarves, magic and enchanted weapons Dragon Age did a really excellent job of portraying a 'lived-in' world. Things were dirty, people died in inglorious ways, and 'bad' people had noble motivations or at least relatable ones like 'wanting to stay alive'. Dragon Age to me was a believable place, one I could imagine existing if all those fantastical elements existed in reality and that was what drew me in, and to this day still refuses to let me go.

Dragon Age 2 is unquestionably a much more stylized approach to the product, and while I approve of some of changes that have resulted from this (i.e. interesting to watch combat) I can't help but feel like the the greatest part of this game (to me), this 'real-world' feel, is under attack.

A friend of mine, knowing my love for the Dragon Age property asked me about my impressions of Dragon Age 2 thus far, and the best way I was able to express my views was that 2 would be what I imagine a manga or comic book adaptation of Dragon Age would be. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; as a certified geek I have a great appreciation for both manga and graphic novels. No, the issue is that I can't help but feel like what I find the most compelling aspect of this property is being abandoned.

In an interview a member of the team, I can't remember which, talked about wanting to create an easily identifiable 'look' for Dragon Age, so that upon seeing any gameplay footage, you would immediately know what game you were looking at. To be sure, this makes a hell a lot of sense from a marketing perspective. Creating a strong visual identity is surely a proven tactic, and one I can understand even if I don't always like it. While I grasp the fact, I assure you I do, that as a framed narrative the team is choosing to play up the 'exagerrated' aspect of this approach, and that from a narrative perspective we're recieving the tale second hand, I just wish it had perhaps been limited to the character design and mechanical portions of the game, as opposed to the overall art style.

In Origins, I found the creature design for the darkspawn to be damn effective at portraying the threat they represent(ed). No way around it, they were scary. Not in a make you jump, horror vibe but in an unsettling, threatening way. Upon immediately seeing the darkspawn I was onboard to fight them, no questions asked, I immediately grasped the danger they posed and had an inkling of what they were capable. This to me is the apex of a strong visual identity, which by all accounts is their goal for the art style changes.

This redesign has created a new look for the darkspawn, which on its own is fine, again going back to the second-hand nature of this story. The problem for me stems from the fact that the darkspawn have lost this powerful visual identity. To me, the darkspawn now put me in the mind of graphic-novel/saturday morning cartoon bad guy goons. In my opinion they have completely lost all traces of their immediate sense of a threat, and now occupy the archetypes of easily dealt with, forgettable and ultimately unthreatening cannon fodder.

I know the darkspawn are no longer the primary threat in this tale, so from that perspective perhaps their toned down visual identity makes a little sense, and if they return in DA3 as a force to be reckoned with and consequently regain the things I've identified previously, I'll be on board.

I'm sure I'll still enjoy this game very much, and spend untold hours on it that I really should have spent doing something else and like I said, simply cannot wait to get my hands on it.

It seems to me however that BioWare chose this entry in the Dragon Age series to try a bunch of different design ideas out. Overwhelmingly I'm filled with the sense that DA2 is a little bit of an 'experiment', and that they chose the framed narrative approach to give these changes context from a continuity perspective. After all, anything that ends up not working in DA2 can be easily abandoned in DA3 without affecting continuity like the implementation of ammo did in Mass Effect 2.

My greatest hope however, is that BioWare will decide either through sales, reviews, or fan-feedback to return to the more true-to-life depiction of life in the Dragon Age world, and recapture the original vision they seemed to have for Dragon Age: Origins, which I took to be a mature, sometimes dark, but above all else believable, engaging re-imagining of the fantasy genre, although I expect I'll be forced to re-evaluate these opinions once I get my eager hands on the game, March 8th.

I thank anyone that bothered to read the entirety of this veritable essay, and would love to hear your thoughts.

[John Epler]

Hey, folks, if you don't want to read a post, replying with 'TLDR' is something you can probably avoid doing.



Exyle, that is a very well-written and fair criticism. While I hate to reply with anything significantly shorter, in the end - I hope you change your mind when you play the game. Certainly, the visual style is strikingly different and does, at first blush, seem to invoke a different feel than DA:O, but I believe that once you start playing the game, when you see the story and the world as a whole, you'll at least find it a little easier to live with, even if it's not exactly what you want.



But thank you for a well-written and intelligent criticism. We can't grow as developers without critique, and while we may not necessarily agree with everything you wrote, it's food for thought, at least.

[John Epler]

Aesieru wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Hey, folks, if you don't want to read a post, replying with 'TLDR' is something you can probably avoid doing.

Exyle, that is a very well-written and fair criticism. While I hate to reply with anything significantly shorter, in the end - I hope you change your mind when you play the game. Certainly, the visual style is strikingly different and does, at first blush, seem to invoke a different feel than DA:O, but I believe that once you start playing the game, when you see the story and the world as a whole, you'll at least find it a little easier to live with, even if it's not exactly what you want.

But thank you for a well-written and intelligent criticism. We can't grow as developers without critique, and while we may not necessarily agree with everything you wrote, it's food for thought, at least.

John, I'm worried that I won't be able to enjoy your story because of the "yellow-sickly" flame that seems to be dominant in the demo. I'd very much appreciate it if you could give indication as to whether or not that is the final-form of the fire within the game, because the trailers look different as do the "gameplay trailers". I'm truly hoping I can play the game despite my other issues with it which are unimportant compared to this, because while not an issue of principle, it is not possible for me to stare at that fire for more than a short period of time and I would be sick if I had to keep seeing it throughout a "upwards of 50-hour" game.

Thank you for your response in advance.

I believe the fire is rather different in the full game? Honestly, I don't know exactly what the fire in the demo looks like (I haven't touched it for a good few months) but I don't recall ever having any issues with the fire in the release build.

Don't quote me on that, though - I don't remember exactly how it looks.

[John Epler]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Exyle19 wrote...

Hah, sorry to disappoint, Stardusk.

21, currently in university for video game design, of all things.

Well, at least you can write withou sounding like your brain is made of goo; most of the kids your age can't.

Good career move too; lucky you didn't waste your time studying humanities and social sciences.

I have a degree in English Literature, I certainly don't feel as though I wasted my time 

[John Epler]

Riloux wrote...

I'm starting to think the greatness of DA followed Brent Knowles out the door when he quit. I think he may have been responsible for everything I loved about the game and now all that's gone without him. Shame. Mostly on Bioware.

Without trying to sound like too much of a jerk (well, I don't think that's going to happen), I think it's well established that you're not happy with the direction that DA2's taking. That's fine! Not everyone will enjoy everything we do, and we certainly don't expect to release every game to completely universal acclaim.

However, you do understand that when you go to every thread and post, essentially, the same thing 'DA2 is too casual and will suck', your posts begin to take on a 'oh, great, this person feel.' Any valid concerns you raise are more likely to be ignored, which I think would be counterproductive to your criticisms.

I mean, you're certainly entitled to post whatever you wish. Just bear in mind that after a while, you will be mentally lumped into a certain category by the developers and your points are far more likely to be ignored.

More succinctly - I'm about ten times more likely to bring up the points of someone like the OP (or even someone with criticisms who presents them and discusses them in a civil fashion) than someone who goes thread to thread to post, essentially, 'BioWare are sellouts/ruining RPGs'. Even your 'Dragon Effect 2' signature makes me less likely to read what you're posting.

[John Epler]

Riloux wrote...

I couldn't care less whether or not you take my criticism to the developers because I know it makes no difference. You're at the mercy of your publisher when decisions are made about what will sell and what won't. You caved in, and I don't normally blame companies for that, but Bioware is one of the last few that makes decent RPGs.

That's fine - you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and as I said, I respect that you aren't happy with the direction we've taken.

Hopefully we release products in the future more to your taste and if not, then that's too bad and I hope you find the game you're looking for elsewhere.

[John Epler]

Alright, let's cut out the 'These are useful degrees' talk. It smacks of elitism, and while that may not be the intention - I'm going to nip it in the bud.

[John Epler]

NinjaMarion wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Hey, folks, if you don't want to read a post, replying with 'TLDR' is something you can probably avoid doing.

Exyle, that is a very well-written and fair criticism. While I hate to reply with anything significantly shorter, in the end - I hope you change your mind when you play the game. Certainly, the visual style is strikingly different and does, at first blush, seem to invoke a different feel than DA:O, but I believe that once you start playing the game, when you see the story and the world as a whole, you'll at least find it a little easier to live with, even if it's not exactly what you want.

But thank you for a well-written and intelligent criticism. We can't grow as developers without critique, and while we may not necessarily agree with everything you wrote, it's food for thought, at least.

There's been a thread about it in the demo discussion for about three days, but since it's yet to get any dev attention, I figured I'll ask here in hopes you see it and answer.

The text in the console versions of the demo is tiny. If you have an SDTV or even an HDTV and you just happen to be unlucky, it's nearly impossible to read. Based on the complaints you guys got about it for Mass Effect 2, this seemingly should have been something kept in mind while developing DA2, and as the demo build is fairly old, we've been holding out hope it's been fixed for the final build. But as this is something that will make the final game unplayable if it hasn't, it's kinda something we can't afford to bet our hope on. So could you please give us an answer on this? Is the text in the final build the same as the demo, or did you guys catch that it's small and difficult to read on SDTVs (and some HDTVs) and fix this for the final build?

I wish I could give you a definitive answer one way or the other, but the fact is that I'm simply not sure. I haven't played the game on the consoles in a while - all my playthroughs post-development were on the PC.

I will let folks know that this has been brought up. No promises on an answer, though.

[John Epler]

Twaddlefish wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Alright, let's cut out the 'These are useful degrees' talk. It smacks of elitism, and while that may not be the intention - I'm going to nip it in the bud.

Thanks for the defense John, but they've got a point...my degree is bloody useless at the moment! 

If Indiana Jones has taught me anything, it's that archaeology is your way to saving the world at least a couple of times over.

That movie is a realistic portrayal of archaeology, right?

[John Epler]

Maria Caliban wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I have a degree in English Literature, I certainly don't feel as though I wasted my time 

How do you feel about comma splices?

The beauty is that I have a degree in English Literature and not writing.

When I'm called on simple grammatical errors, I can just say 'well it's not my fault! I just learned how to appreciate writing.'

[John Epler]

Maria Caliban wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

The beauty is that I have a degree in English Literature and not writing.

When I'm called on simple grammatical errors, I can just say 'well it's not my fault! I just learned how to appreciate writing.'

How did you go from English Lit to cinematic guy?

Well, my minor was in Film Studies. Mostly, though, I wanted to get into the storytelling side of video games, and after spending a good six months working with the Cinematic Design team on ME2, I realized that I wanted to do what they did.

Also, movie star good looks. Well, no, but I've been told that I look kind of like Jamie Oliver.

[John Epler]

Alright, I think we've gone far enough on the grammar tangent. Let's bring it back to DA2, please.