203 réponses à ce sujet

[Exyle19]

Apologizing in advance for the wall of text.

Let me first start by saying that I have been, and will continue to be a massive fan of BioWare and everything they've done, and continue to do. BioWare is one of only two modern developers (the other is Blizzard) that has managed to win my support and trust in all their projects by, to my mind, creating new IPs and lavishing upon them the same attention to detail, narrative and gameplay that they would a proven earner, and creating sequels that improve upon these strengths while addressing their weaknesses.
Anything created by BioWare immediately grabs my attention, and to this day they are the only company for which I will give-up my hard earned dollars before reading any reviews, or even playing a demo.

I think it speaks volumes about the company, that even in today's modern age when piracy is so rampant, so easy, and so practical (from a consumer financial standpoint), that they are able to run a successful business off of (largely) single-player experiences alone, as multi-player tends to be the gate through which pirates cannot pass.

I pre-ordered DA2 back in January, and just the other day payed it all off. I entertain no thoughts at all of cancelling this pre-order based on these concerns, and simply cannot wait to get my hands on their latest creation. This thread simply stems from my desire to express myself, and perhaps help shed some light on other's complaints as I've found most of them were poorly detailed and came off as very reactionary, though all the same, I think some of their points are vaild. BioWare has a proven track record of listening to their fans, and my only hope is that one of the developers will take the time to read this post, and at some point in the creation of DA3 think of it, if only for a second, in order to create a more informed design decision which I don't believe can ever be a bad thing.

My concerns are not with the dialogue wheel. At first, I wasn't a huge fan, worrying that BioWare having struck gold  with the Mass Effect series, would opt to simply produce a clone army of this game since that would be the easier option as opposed to creating new and exciting properties. Upon further consideration however, I find this to be unlikely. The amount of effort they put into the world-building of Dragon Age, the sheer amount of lore alone, makes me think that they would be unlikely to compromise this creation in favour of 'selling-out', for lack of a better term. I think the dialogue wheel is a pretty natural evolution, and in no way constitutes 'dumbing down' for the console market. Someone in another thread pointed out that by and large, the amount of dialogue options remain roughly the same. 3-4 questions, one mean progression, one nice progression, one neutral, and one to end it). I prefer playing my characters as extensions of myself, as I'm sure many of you as well, but I've never really had a problem with not knowing what it was my character was going to say. I found Mass Effect was pretty effective at conveying the overall tone of your character's response, and my initial impressions of DA2 with the icons seem to have improved this.

This is the view I take: In DA:O we were able to determine the choice of words, but not the tone or intent behind these words, hence all the stories of "stumbling" into a romance with Zevran. In DA2, we decide the tone and overall intent instead, which in my opinion helps with the emotional engagement of NPCs since every choice essentially becomes an 'emotional' one.

My concern is also not the combat, since from what I've been able to gather from the demo actually appears to be largely unchanged. It is still not doubt a Dragon Age game, preserving the tactical and planning aspects of Origins. Really, all that appears to have been changed is the combat animations, and the elimination of the initial 'setting up, shuffling' ritual of DA:O before swords locked. Auto-attack is now much faster, and it seems the ability cooldown times have been slightly reduced, conversely however, it also appears damage was reduced or health was increased, I'm not sure which. What I find the end result to be however, is a much more stylized, flashier, and fun to watch version of DA:O combat. I didn't bother grabbing a stopwatch, but the engagements in the demo seem to line up pretty well with what I remember from early combat in DA:O. They even tend to play out the same way I find; I at least I find my tactics have gone largely unchanged besides targeting where I estimate the enemies will be, as opposed to locking on to an individual for AoE.

My issue isn't the UI either, which while I'm not a huge fan of the EXACT implementation, I do like that it's streamlined and now takes up less space on screen, leaving me free to appreciate the on-screen happenings. I found in DA:O I would every now and then lose track of my NPC's health while managing the battlefield and every now and then having a companion go down unexpectedly. In DA2, I am now pretty much always peripherally aware of how everyone's doing, and the quick-heal button really helps with the flow of combat.

Really, my real concern is about the overall tone of the world, and by estimation seems to be at the core of most forumite's complaints.

I'm sure some of you remember back when DA:O was first coming out, all sorts of (favourable) comparisons to George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series and this is what the greatest appeal of DA:O was to me. If I'm completely honest, Dragon Age: Origins had very few (if any) gameplay innovations. The overall structure had been used many times before, by BioWare no less, in KoTOR and NWN. In my opinion, Origins used an old structure, although executed with and outstanding degree of competence. I don't really think this needs further explanation.

What made Dragon Age unique (in a video game) was to me, the grounded setting, subdued and dare I even say 'gritty' feel of the world we were in. Despite having dragons, elves, dwarves, magic and enchanted weapons Dragon Age did a really excellent job of portraying a 'lived-in' world. Things were dirty, people died in inglorious ways, and 'bad' people had noble motivations or at least relatable ones like 'wanting to stay alive'. Dragon Age to me was a believable place, one I could imagine existing if all those fantastical elements existed in reality and that was what drew me in, and to this day still refuses to let me go.

Dragon Age 2 is unquestionably a much more stylized approach to the product, and while I approve of some of changes that have resulted from this (i.e. interesting to watch combat) I can't help but feel like the the greatest part of this game (to me), this 'real-world' feel, is under attack.

A friend of mine, knowing my love for the Dragon Age property asked me about my impressions of Dragon Age 2 thus far, and the best way I was able to express my views was that 2 would be what I imagine a manga or comic book adaptation of Dragon Age would be. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; as a certified geek I have a great appreciation for both manga and graphic novels. No, the issue is that I can't help but feel like what I find the most compelling aspect of this property is being abandoned.

In an interview a member of the team, I can't remember which, talked about wanting to create an easily identifiable 'look' for Dragon Age, so that upon seeing any gameplay footage, you would immediately know what game you were looking at. To be sure, this makes a hell a lot of sense from a marketing perspective. Creating a strong visual identity is surely a proven tactic, and one I can understand even if I don't always like it. While I grasp the fact, I assure you I do, that as a framed narrative the team is choosing to play up the 'exagerrated' aspect of this approach, and that from a narrative perspective we're recieving the tale second hand, I just wish it had perhaps been limited to the character design and mechanical portions of the game, as opposed to the overall art style.

In Origins, I found the creature design for the darkspawn to be damn effective at portraying the threat they represent(ed). No way around it, they were scary. Not in a make you jump, horror vibe but in an unsettling, threatening way. Upon immediately seeing the darkspawn I was onboard to fight them, no questions asked, I immediately grasped the danger they posed and had an inkling of what they were capable. This to me is the apex of a strong visual identity, which by all accounts is their goal for the art style changes.

This redesign has created a new look for the darkspawn, which on its own is fine, again going back to the second-hand nature of this story. The problem for me stems from the fact that the darkspawn have lost this powerful visual identity. To me, the darkspawn now put me in the mind of graphic-novel/saturday morning cartoon bad guy goons. In my opinion they have completely lost all traces of their immediate sense of a threat, and now occupy the archetypes of easily dealt with, forgettable and ultimately unthreatening cannon fodder.

I know the darkspawn are no longer the primary threat in this tale, so from that perspective perhaps their toned down visual identity makes a little sense, and if they return in DA3 as a force to be reckoned with and consequently regain the things I've identified previously, I'll be on board.

I'm sure I'll still enjoy this game very much, and spend untold hours on it that I really should have spent doing something else and like I said, simply cannot wait to get my hands on it.

It seems to me however that BioWare chose this entry in the Dragon Age series to try a bunch of different design ideas out. Overwhelmingly I'm filled with the sense that DA2 is a little bit of an 'experiment', and that they chose the framed narrative approach to give these changes context from a continuity perspective. After all, anything that ends up not working in DA2 can be easily abandoned in DA3 without affecting continuity like the implementation of ammo did in Mass Effect 2.

My greatest hope however, is that BioWare will decide either through sales, reviews, or fan-feedback to return to the more true-to-life depiction of life in the Dragon Age world, and recapture the original vision they seemed to have for Dragon Age: Origins, which I took to be a mature, sometimes dark, but above all else believable, engaging re-imagining of the fantasy genre, although I expect I'll be forced to re-evaluate these opinions once I get my eager hands on the game, March 8th.

I thank anyone that bothered to read the entirety of this veritable essay, and would love to hear your thoughts.

[Skilled Seeker]

TL/DR

[JrayM16]

I appreciate the idea of civilized criticism, but will need some time to read your walloftext. I will respond more fully in a few minutes.

[fighterchick]

That was really unnecessarily long; I really didn't need to know what the problems AREN'T. As for feedback, I like the art redesign. I don't understand how it's that big of an issue though. Darkspawn never really looked all that unique in origins to me, so I don't really think that they lose their "powerful visual identity" since it put me in mind of several other monsters from other games/books/movies.

[Darkeus]

I find it interesting that people think the tone of the game is different since many of these reviews that are out say that the world is GRITTIER AND DARKER....

That said, I do appreciate the civilized tone of your complaints!

Modifié par Darkeus, 26 février 2011 - 10:53 .

[ShadowPlay 14]

Just read it, and I've gained a massive amount of respect for you, makes a nice change to listen to someone's concerns put forth in a civilized manner, and not the old fashioned 'But it's different!!!!!!!'. Kudos to you.

[daywalker03]

In my opinion, the art style of DA2 is a "critical" element in the framed narative; it's unknown if Cassandra has ever seen any DArkspawn, so we may simply be playing the game as she is visualizing the events, based on what Varric is describing to her.

[hawat333]

You've had an interesting comparison between the darkspawn art styles. Namely that it's like a cartoon or a graphic novel bad guy. I feel the same for the whole game.

If playing DA:O feels like a hard cover novel, then Dragon Age 2 is a comic book or a cartoon.

[Grunk]

I see what you're saying re: the look of it, although I found a lot of the gear in DA: O to be pretty silly looking. For me, what made the tone of it work (although I still think it was a far cry from A Song of Ice and Fire) was the fact that sometimes doing what seemed ruthless/bad was actually the intelligent way to go (werewolves and golems help you stop the archdemon more than dwarves and elves, the matter of the dwarven king, and maybe a few other things). I think that DA:O caught the grittiness by miring some choices in difficulty. I'm hoping DA2 expands on this.



Also, I didn't find the darkspawn threatening. Whenever friends saw me play the game, they'd go "Oh, more orcs in fantasy, how original." I appreciate their more otherworldly look in DA2 and find them more striking than their previous iteration. That said, I also think they look dangerously close to zombies.



Really, I want more difficult choices with unclean resolutions. Not just evil in the short term, good in the long-term sorts of deals, but choices that involve characters that I am made to care about that can't be comfortably resolved. I always want to feel a level of dread about the repercussions of my choices, and I want for my choices to not work out neatly or for the best. I also want to not just see the ramifications of my choices play out in an epilogue, but to be a part of it. So I'm pretty excited about the experimentation they're doing with the narrative, and I'm pretty hype to try it out.



Good post.

[My Avatar is a Lizard]

I think DA2 will still have a very nitty gritty down to earth Story.

It's just the Combat that's  been stylized mostly.

[Exyle19]

@ fighterchicks



My goal in bringing up the other major complaints I've seen around the forum, and explaining why I have no issue with these, was to illustrate that these thoughts are not a knee-jerk reaction to something I saw in a gameplay video a few minutes ago, and hopefully to also show that I am interested in discussing these (and opposing) points of view on the subject.



What do you like about the art redesign, if I might ask? I confess my primary gripe is that I've seen this style before in (many) other IPs, and so in my opinion the goal of creating a unique visual style has fallen flat on its face.



What do you like about the darkspawn redesign? First thing that comes to my mind when I see them is the TMNT foot clan.

[Aldaris951]

WTF is wrong with you people? I read it and it took less than Amin to read. If u don't read it tuen don't post. Anyway I do agree with the OP I know fantasy isn't realistic but DA2 is less realistic than origins. Origins had a belivible world but DA2 looks way too cartoony and the animations are way over the top.

[swan_tower]

The thing I don't understand is why people are drawing such sweeping conclusions based on the demo and the few scraps of information that have been released so far -- because yes, even with all the tidbits of red meat Bioware tosses out there, it amounts to scraps when laid against the mountain of the actual game.



It may be that you're right, that Varric's narration will shine the whole thing up and make it more cartoony. But I don't remotely think that's guaranteed. I suspect we're still going to find ourselves facing hard choices, good guys with bad motivations, bad guys with good motivations, and all the rest of the grit that made DA:O interesting. What the frame seems set up to do is let Bioware tell a story which otherwise would involve lots of boring downtime ("And then the Champion of Kirkwall spent six months recruiting city guards and balancing the municipal budget to pay for them"), in a manner that lets you skip past the tedium. If anything, I find that *more* realistic, because it means the Fate Of The World doesn't get decided in two weeks of miraculous action. We'll make choices, then jump ahead to the point at which the consequences of those choices become interesting -- which may be two years later.



But that's speculation on my part. As you say, Bioware's previous work has earned them a great deal of trust, so I'm going to wait to see the actual *game* before I make any judgment calls. Anything else is just cat-vacuuming, to keep me busy while I wait to get my hands on the thing.

[John Epler]

Hey, folks, if you don't want to read a post, replying with 'TLDR' is something you can probably avoid doing.



Exyle, that is a very well-written and fair criticism. While I hate to reply with anything significantly shorter, in the end - I hope you change your mind when you play the game. Certainly, the visual style is strikingly different and does, at first blush, seem to invoke a different feel than DA:O, but I believe that once you start playing the game, when you see the story and the world as a whole, you'll at least find it a little easier to live with, even if it's not exactly what you want.



But thank you for a well-written and intelligent criticism. We can't grow as developers without critique, and while we may not necessarily agree with everything you wrote, it's food for thought, at least.

[Stardusk78]

I think you are clearly older than 25...what kind of education do you have?

[Aesieru]

JohnEpler wrote...

Hey, folks, if you don't want to read a post, replying with 'TLDR' is something you can probably avoid doing.

Exyle, that is a very well-written and fair criticism. While I hate to reply with anything significantly shorter, in the end - I hope you change your mind when you play the game. Certainly, the visual style is strikingly different and does, at first blush, seem to invoke a different feel than DA:O, but I believe that once you start playing the game, when you see the story and the world as a whole, you'll at least find it a little easier to live with, even if it's not exactly what you want.

But thank you for a well-written and intelligent criticism. We can't grow as developers without critique, and while we may not necessarily agree with everything you wrote, it's food for thought, at least.

John, I'm worried that I won't be able to enjoy your story because of the "yellow-sickly" flame that seems to be dominant in the demo. I'd very much appreciate it if you could give indication as to whether or not that is the final-form of the fire within the game, because the trailers look different as do the "gameplay trailers". I'm truly hoping I can play the game despite my other issues with it which are unimportant compared to this, because while not an issue of principle, it is not possible for me to stare at that fire for more than a short period of time and I would be sick if I had to keep seeing it throughout a "upwards of 50-hour" game.

Thank you for your response in advance.

[Exyle19]

Hah, sorry to disappoint, Stardusk.



21, currently in university for video game design, of all things.

[John Epler]

Aesieru wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Hey, folks, if you don't want to read a post, replying with 'TLDR' is something you can probably avoid doing.

Exyle, that is a very well-written and fair criticism. While I hate to reply with anything significantly shorter, in the end - I hope you change your mind when you play the game. Certainly, the visual style is strikingly different and does, at first blush, seem to invoke a different feel than DA:O, but I believe that once you start playing the game, when you see the story and the world as a whole, you'll at least find it a little easier to live with, even if it's not exactly what you want.

But thank you for a well-written and intelligent criticism. We can't grow as developers without critique, and while we may not necessarily agree with everything you wrote, it's food for thought, at least.

John, I'm worried that I won't be able to enjoy your story because of the "yellow-sickly" flame that seems to be dominant in the demo. I'd very much appreciate it if you could give indication as to whether or not that is the final-form of the fire within the game, because the trailers look different as do the "gameplay trailers". I'm truly hoping I can play the game despite my other issues with it which are unimportant compared to this, because while not an issue of principle, it is not possible for me to stare at that fire for more than a short period of time and I would be sick if I had to keep seeing it throughout a "upwards of 50-hour" game.

Thank you for your response in advance.

I believe the fire is rather different in the full game? Honestly, I don't know exactly what the fire in the demo looks like (I haven't touched it for a good few months) but I don't recall ever having any issues with the fire in the release build.

Don't quote me on that, though - I don't remember exactly how it looks.

[Darkeus]

swan_tower wrote...



 ("And then the Champion of Kirkwall spent six months recruiting city guards and balancing the municipal budget to pay for them"), in a manner that lets you skip past the tedium. If anything, I find that *more* realistic, because it means the Fate Of The World doesn't get decided in two weeks of miraculous action. We'll make choices, then jump ahead to the point at which the consequences of those choices become interesting -- which may be two years later.

Actually, I really think this is what people want when they talk about realism.  I believe they want all of the micromanaging and tedious bullcrap....

[LoK-y-Yo]

I can't but congratulate to both Exyle and John for their post

[Schmoodla]

I must say I agree with you, Exyle. It took time to read your thread, but I agree with you.
You pretty much wrote everything that I think about the game(demo).
Just about the darkspawn thing:
Yes, they look less intimidating and easy to kill and it's strange to "switch" from the DAO darkspawn to these. But, as Mr. Epler said, I don't really mind their new look because the new story got my attention locked. In my opinion, everything is much more connected to Hawke/you than it was in origins. It was a smart move of Bioware tu put family in the game.

[Stardusk78]

Exyle19 wrote...

Hah, sorry to disappoint, Stardusk.

21, currently in university for video game design, of all things.

Well, at least you can write withou sounding like your brain is made of goo; most of the kids your age can't.

Good career move too; lucky you didn't waste your time studying humanities and social sciences.

[LaztRezort]

Troll!

Just kidding (obviously)

I agree somewhat on the style change - it ain't exactly my favorite.  But it also isn't really much of a concern, especially for a video game.  From what I've played of the demo, it at least looks like it will be fun to pulverive our enemies...

I'm really going to base my final impressions, I think, on the story and the telling of it.  Going back to the Ice and Fire comparison, I'm somewhat optimistic we'll see a little more GRRM-ishness in this one, due to the rumors of political factions being a main focus of the story, not to mention the rumors of tough choices and the lack of super-evil-bad-guy in black antagonist.

I suppose we will know soon enough, eh?

[John Epler]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Exyle19 wrote...

Hah, sorry to disappoint, Stardusk.

21, currently in university for video game design, of all things.

Well, at least you can write withou sounding like your brain is made of goo; most of the kids your age can't.

Good career move too; lucky you didn't waste your time studying humanities and social sciences.

I have a degree in English Literature, I certainly don't feel as though I wasted my time 

[Aesieru]

JohnEpler wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Hey, folks, if you don't want to read a post, replying with 'TLDR' is something you can probably avoid doing.

Exyle, that is a very well-written and fair criticism. While I hate to reply with anything significantly shorter, in the end - I hope you change your mind when you play the game. Certainly, the visual style is strikingly different and does, at first blush, seem to invoke a different feel than DA:O, but I believe that once you start playing the game, when you see the story and the world as a whole, you'll at least find it a little easier to live with, even if it's not exactly what you want.

But thank you for a well-written and intelligent criticism. We can't grow as developers without critique, and while we may not necessarily agree with everything you wrote, it's food for thought, at least.

John, I'm worried that I won't be able to enjoy your story because of the "yellow-sickly" flame that seems to be dominant in the demo. I'd very much appreciate it if you could give indication as to whether or not that is the final-form of the fire within the game, because the trailers look different as do the "gameplay trailers". I'm truly hoping I can play the game despite my other issues with it which are unimportant compared to this, because while not an issue of principle, it is not possible for me to stare at that fire for more than a short period of time and I would be sick if I had to keep seeing it throughout a "upwards of 50-hour" game.

Thank you for your response in advance.

I believe the fire is rather different in the full game? Honestly, I don't know exactly what the fire in the demo looks like (I haven't touched it for a good few months) but I don't recall ever having any issues with the fire in the release build.

Don't quote me on that, though - I don't remember exactly how it looks.

Thank you for at least giving me some hope, John.

I'll go through with my pre-purchase merely on that note, as while the other things were my dislikes with the magic system and lack of innovation, this was a game-breaker for me (and seems to maybe also be for some others, though a minority).