203 réponses à ce sujet

[Aesieru]

Exyle19 wrote...

Hah, sorry to disappoint, Stardusk.

21, currently in university for video game design, of all things.

Really?

Even in this economy? I'm impressed.

I had to leave the University of Advancing Technology in a focus of game-writing because of the economy back in mid-late 2000's.

Now I'm in business hoping to make the same leaps but with a different focus.

[Riloux]

I'm starting to think the greatness of DA followed Brent Knowles out the door when he quit. I think he may have been responsible for everything I loved about the game and now all that's gone without him. Shame. Mostly on Bioware.

Modifié par Riloux, 26 février 2011 - 11:16 .

[drahelvete]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Good career move too; lucky you didn't waste your time studying humanities and social sciences.

[WuWeiWu]

I read the entire post, and truly it wasn't too lengthy. Most forumites, and poignantly those who double as two-bit literates, may find the length a tad daunting at first but if they tried, they'd get through it.

Your post glanced over a large number of your potential problems with this game, and I appreciate you having writ them in a candid manner. A few of the notions, such as the dialogue wheel being a natural evolution, I wholeheartedly agree with and have argued for on these forums. In your post, what you didn't have a problem with was as enlightening as what you did.

Your main point of contention, the gritty and often dark 'feel' of DA:O being absent or changed in DA2, I have to slightly disagree with; for true, BioWare changed up the artistic approach and I don't know if I like it yet. Where I disagree with you, though, is that even if the visual and aural feel of Dragon Age 2 differs substantially from Dragon Age: Origins attempt* at a dark, gritty re-imagined fantasy setting - even if it differs, I trust BioWare enough and I trust what I've played so far to infer and hope that the visual and aural styling will fit the nature of the story and that the nature of the story will fit the 'real' world BioWare created with DA:O.

So even if the visual and aural setting is not immediately true to DA:O, I hope that it will fit the story and thus, through the story, the 'real' world presented in DA:O.



*To be fair, BioWare, I don't think it was an always successful attempt. Just my opinion, though; love(d) the game and all that.

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 26 février 2011 - 11:19 .

[fighterchick]

Exyle19 wrote...

@ fighterchicks

My goal in bringing up the other major complaints I've seen around the forum, and explaining why I have no issue with these, was to illustrate that these thoughts are not a knee-jerk reaction to something I saw in a gameplay video a few minutes ago, and hopefully to also show that I am interested in discussing these (and opposing) points of view on the subject.

I get that, I just wanted you go get to the point.  I entered the topic curious as to what your concerns were and just found myself hit with a wall of text on what you had no issue with.  I have no problem with large blocks of texts, but it just wasn't relevant to what the problems were.  Just my personal preference, but I understand why you did it.

What do you like about the art redesign, if I might ask? I confess my primary gripe is that I've seen this style before in (many) other IPs, and so in my opinion the goal of creating a unique visual style has fallen flat on its face.

So far, I like the differences between the species.  The horned qunari design, the subtle differences in the elven faces, making them taller/more slender so they don't look like children any more.  Things like that, I feel like it just expands on the lore already present in origins and makes things more unique/distinct.

What do you like about the darkspawn redesign? First thing that comes to my mind when I see them is the TMNT foot clan.

Honestly, I neither like nor dislike the new art design for the darkspawn.  Before, it reminded me of other creatures from difference fantasy settings and now they still look similar to other fantasy settings.  There's only so much you can do, in my opinion, with making monsters/darkspawn look unique.  They didnt' look scary before and they don't look scary now.  I just don't think the change is that drastic, nor that importan since, as you pointed out, the darkspawn don't seem to have that large of a bearing on this story.

Modifié par fighterchicks, 26 février 2011 - 11:18 .

[I.leary]

I sympathise with your opinion on the darkspawn. I didn't like the new design, although I understand it was something that really needed changing if they were to create an unique visual identity (DA:O's looked too much like orcs).

From the material released so far, it seems to me there is a lot of positive changes, however. Take the Qunari, for example. Or the mage's outfits, which now kind of resemble jedi robes. I'm not so sure about the stylized armors (I'm a plate armor fan) even though I admit the older models would never fit in the new art style.

I guess it's a matter of playing to see. I do have high expectations, but I'm also very thrilled with the perspective of playing a game which is also an experiment in some ways. Congratulations, devs, for having the courage to try new things. Whatever the reception might be, I think it'll prove quite fruitful, for future titles if for nothing else.

[Nighteye2]

I mostly agree with Exyle's analysis - although the Dialogue wheel DOES bother me, because of the mental distance it creates between me and my character. I also lament the loss of an isometric camera, which will be especially troublesome on higher difficulties where you have to keep an eye of what your party is doing - which is very hard if you cannot zoom the camera out far enough to keep them all on-screen.

[the scrubber]

JohnEpler wrote...

Hey, folks, if you don't want to read a post, replying with 'TLDR' is something you can probably avoid doing.

Exyle, that is a very well-written and fair criticism. While I hate to reply with anything significantly shorter, in the end - I hope you change your mind when you play the game. Certainly, the visual style is strikingly different and does, at first blush, seem to invoke a different feel than DA:O, but I believe that once you start playing the game, when you see the story and the world as a whole, you'll at least find it a little easier to live with, even if it's not exactly what you want.

But thank you for a well-written and intelligent criticism. We can't grow as developers without critique, and while we may not necessarily agree with everything you wrote, it's food for thought, at least.

and thats what makes bioware great:)

[fighterchick]

Stardusk78 wrote...

Exyle19 wrote...

Hah, sorry to disappoint, Stardusk.

21, currently in university for video game design, of all things.

Well, at least you can write withou sounding like your brain is made of goo; most of the kids your age can't.

Good career move too; lucky you didn't waste your time studying humanities and social sciences.

On a completely off-topic note, don't most people never use their intended degrees anyways?  I think there's some statistic floating out there on this; I know that I fully intend on not using mine.

On a related note, yay for well-written concerns.  And I really do like the new art direction mostly.  

[Exyle19]

Thank you for the reply, John. The fact that you bothered to read the entire thing and respond means a lot to me.



I'm sure nearly all of my concerns will be prove invalid once I get my hands on the game, after all, I had some similar worries about Mass Effect 2 when it first came out, and I ended up enjoying it even more than I'd hoped at my most hyped.



You guys seem to know what I like better than I do, sometimes.

[Aesieru]

I kind of liked the old art style a bit better, being honest, as they seemed more... defined.

Modifié par Aesieru, 26 février 2011 - 11:24 .

[2papercuts]

I agree with OP on that the style has change

DAO I would describe as realistic fanasty, although I am not sure that is a genre

this realistic style was something that I feel resonated throughout the first game to make it immersive and believable, and that style affected other parts of the game like combat, animations, and visuals

with the changes in DA2 I think that Bioware may have changed this style of DA, to make it more "cartoony", and this has lead to changes in visuals and annimations

I hope that Bioware does not stray to far from what DA originally was

Modifié par 2papercuts, 26 février 2011 - 11:25 .

[swan_tower]

Darkeus wrote...

swan_tower wrote...

 ("And then the Champion of Kirkwall spent six months recruiting city guards and balancing the municipal budget to pay for them"), in a manner that lets you skip past the tedium. If anything, I find that *more* realistic, because it means the Fate Of The World doesn't get decided in two weeks of miraculous action. We'll make choices, then jump ahead to the point at which the consequences of those choices become interesting -- which may be two years later.

Actually, I really think this is what people want when they talk about realism.  I believe they want all of the micromanaging and tedious bullcrap....

If I wanted that, I'd be playing Eve Online (aka Spreadsheets! In! Spaaaaaaace!).

Or SIMS.  I said a while back, only half-jokingly, that I'd love to see a SIMS: D&D Edition.  You start out with a little village in the countryside, and have to determine things like the optimum distance at which to place a red dragon's cave, so as to maximize the number of adventurers passing through while minimizing the damage the dragon does to the village . . .

. . . but that's neither here nor there.  The frame-story in DA2 appears to be a device to tell a longer-term story without bogging down in minutiae.  I am all in favor of the concept, though I'll have to wait and see how the execution works out.

[ashez2ashes]

I have to agree with the tone of the world. I think the more "xtreme" fighting styles contributes to this feeling as well. Telporting and swirling staffs constantly for no reason feels much more cartoonish. I also can't get the Herlock's resemblance to Skeletor from He-Man out of my head.

[2papercuts]

ashez2ashes wrote...

I have to agree with the tone of the world. I think the more "xtreme" fighting styles contributes to this feeling as well. Telporting and swirling staffs constantly for no reason feels much more cartoonish. I also can't get the Herlock's resemblance to Skeletor from He-Man out of my head.

yes the random twirls a mage does and how weightless sword now are in combat I think  contribute to the "Cartoony" style

[Maconbar]

I enjoyed reading your post and can sympathize with your concerns regarding the darkspawn. The problem that I have is that neither the DA:O version nor the DA:2 type seem to fit my conception of darkspawn. The original ones seemed too orc-like and the DA:2 seem to bleached out. I don't get a sense of the "corruption" associated with darkspawn/

[0x30A88]

Understand you on the darkspawn -- their new look doesn't convey the sense of blight and corruption as those of Origins did. Now they look like undead zombies -- not a product of a tainted vile evil.

[WuWeiWu]

ashez2ashes wrote...

I have to agree with the tone of the world. I think the more "xtreme" fighting styles contributes to this feeling as well. Telporting and swirling staffs constantly for no reason feels much more cartoonish. I also can't get the Herlock's resemblance to Skeletor from He-Man out of my head.

The one thing I didn't like about the demo - the attack animations. During the 'epic' portions of the game, where Varric takes... certain liberties... with the story, the fast and intense attack animations work surprisingly well. I was expecting and hoping that said animations would be perhaps toned or slowed down just a bit in the regular, or 'actual', portions of the game.

Not a huge problem for me, but I expect excellence in everything. EVERYTHING!

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 26 février 2011 - 11:29 .

[John Epler]

Riloux wrote...

I'm starting to think the greatness of DA followed Brent Knowles out the door when he quit. I think he may have been responsible for everything I loved about the game and now all that's gone without him. Shame. Mostly on Bioware.

Without trying to sound like too much of a jerk (well, I don't think that's going to happen), I think it's well established that you're not happy with the direction that DA2's taking. That's fine! Not everyone will enjoy everything we do, and we certainly don't expect to release every game to completely universal acclaim.

However, you do understand that when you go to every thread and post, essentially, the same thing 'DA2 is too casual and will suck', your posts begin to take on a 'oh, great, this person feel.' Any valid concerns you raise are more likely to be ignored, which I think would be counterproductive to your criticisms.

I mean, you're certainly entitled to post whatever you wish. Just bear in mind that after a while, you will be mentally lumped into a certain category by the developers and your points are far more likely to be ignored.

More succinctly - I'm about ten times more likely to bring up the points of someone like the OP (or even someone with criticisms who presents them and discusses them in a civil fashion) than someone who goes thread to thread to post, essentially, 'BioWare are sellouts/ruining RPGs'. Even your 'Dragon Effect 2' signature makes me less likely to read what you're posting.

[reservedegotist]

Nighteye2 wrote...

I mostly agree with Exyle's analysis - although the Dialogue wheel DOES bother me, because of the mental distance it creates between me and my character. I also lament the loss of an isometric camera, which will be especially troublesome on higher difficulties where you have to keep an eye of what your party is doing - which is very hard if you cannot zoom the camera out far enough to keep them all on-screen.

As a console player, I never found myself missing the isometric view.  I played Baldur's Gate II on my PC but if it ever were reimagined on the DA Engine I'm sure I could play it just fine.  On a purely visual front, I think Bioware did a good job striking a balance between the tactical and action-oriented views, not inconveniencing one or another.  Of course that's my opinion and I managed to adapt to it, so YMMV.

The dialogue wheel is...interesting.  I haven't played Mass Effect and so am used to the classical way of doing things.  I'm gonna keep an open mind about it, but I for one welcome VO for the main character because they do a much better job than me at acting out intent.  Does it disconnect myself from the character?  I don't think so.  Consider this as Bioware giving the main character the intended voice (of course if you imagine Male Hawke with a Scottish accent..then oops), but allowing us to hone their personality. To me it provides a richer experience overall as I don't have to RP a voice in my head.

The darkspawn reimagining is weird to me as well, but it's not because of what they look like.  Someone had it down comparing them to Saturday morning bad goonies (to me, they remind me of putties from Power Rangers - yea i'm old school!).  I guess for those who grew up watching that it does make them more cartoonish, as opposed to the relatively normal but brutal interpretation of them in DA:O.  At the same time though, they aren't the focus of the story, so maybe the tone is deliberately different but hopefully it will fit this story.

Modifié par reservedegotist, 26 février 2011 - 11:32 .

[Darkeus]

swan_tower wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

swan_tower wrote...

 ("And then the Champion of Kirkwall spent six months recruiting city guards and balancing the municipal budget to pay for them"), in a manner that lets you skip past the tedium. If anything, I find that *more* realistic, because it means the Fate Of The World doesn't get decided in two weeks of miraculous action. We'll make choices, then jump ahead to the point at which the consequences of those choices become interesting -- which may be two years later.

Actually, I really think this is what people want when they talk about realism.  I believe they want all of the micromanaging and tedious bullcrap....

If I wanted that, I'd be playing Eve Online (aka Spreadsheets! In! Spaaaaaaace!).

Or SIMS.  I said a while back, only half-jokingly, that I'd love to see a SIMS: D&D Edition.  You start out with a little village in the countryside, and have to determine things like the optimum distance at which to place a red dragon's cave, so as to maximize the number of adventurers passing through while minimizing the damage the dragon does to the village . . .

. . . but that's neither here nor there.  The frame-story in DA2 appears to be a device to tell a longer-term story without bogging down in minutiae.  I am all in favor of the concept, though I'll have to wait and see how the execution works out.

Spreadsheets in Space....  Indeed, indeed.

And I agree with you.  I was just making a general statement.  Sometimes I really think some people (And I was not talking about you) really want this boring, tedium of some fantasy character's life.  For escapist reasons or whatever, they want to become these characters and do all of their boring stuff.

And that just goes against the whole idea of a game to me....

[I.leary]

The more I read threads about the new combat animations, the more I think I'm biased for having spent a childhood watching Dragonball Z lol.

It's incredible how our personal contexts can influence the way we react to things.

Now I'm getting philosofical. I'd better stop.

[Giantdeathrobot]

 Excellent post, OP. We need more people like you around, to break the monotony of fans and anti-fans bickering back and forth. It becomes really tedious. Kudos also to John for responding this thread in particular.

Chiming in about the art design, I think a change was needed. I loved Origins, but the art style was bland, brown, generic, boring, you name it. It really needed an identity of it's own. From what I saw, it is a half-success; it has an identity now, but it doesn't seem to be a particulary great one (to use the Darkspawn as an example, the Ogres are OK-ish if you forget the metal bra, and the Emmissaries are good, but the new Hurlocks are skeletor ripoffs who die with pathetic piggish screams. They inspire even less fear than the mud-covered Orcs in Origins). On the other hand, I like Kirkwall, the stark white walls and clay buildings are a pretty signicant departure from the Ordinary Medieveal Town that was Denerim, in a good way IMO, though maybe 40 hours in them will be long after a while, we'll see.

[Aesieru]

 Surely you meant, MINING IN SPACE?

[reservedegotist]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

 Excellent post, OP. We need more people like you around, to break the monotony of fans and anti-fans bickering back and forth. It becomes really tedious. Kudos also to John for responding this thread in particular.

Chiming in about the art design, I think a change was needed. I loved Origins, but the art style was bland, brown, generic, boring, you name it. It really needed an identity of it's own. From what I saw, it is a half-success; it has an identity now, but it doesn't seem to be a particulary great one (to use the Darkspawn as an example, the Ogres are OK-ish if you forget the metal bra, and the Emmissaries are good, but the new Hurlocks are skeletor ripoffs who die with pathetic piggish screams. They inspire even less fear than the mud-covered Orcs in Origins). On the other hand, I like Kirkwall, the stark white walls and clay buildings are a pretty signicant departure from the Ordinary Medieveal Town that was Denerim, in a good way IMO, though maybe 40 hours in them will be long after a while, we'll see.

Damn it, you made me go back to DA:O just to find an ogre to confirm the metal bra.

Now I cannot unsee.
Damn my curiousity.