143 réponses à ce sujet

[Jackel159357]

I wouldn't describe Dragon Age 2s gameplay as button mashing but I did feel it was far less tactical than Dragon Age Origins, I feel this was largely due to the fact the top down view camera was removed and also the increased rate of killing enemies (solved by having many waves of numerous weak enemies) made it feel less tactical as rather than focusing on positioning/healing/buffing most of the focus was on maximizing killing speed especially AOE damage due to the prevalence of huge numbers of mobs swarming the player at once.

[Dragoonlordz]

To button mash is to having keep pressing buttons to attack, in this regard it isn't far off. Just because has negative connotations as far as term goes doesn't make it less true. This is amplified by the factor of constant spawning of tacky implementation of waves unlike DAO where they were set in position and allowed for tactical approach [with exception of very few fights] to how that combat played out. Then there is also the removal of tactical camera and the fact the skills became so over the top silly teleporting around the screen and very short cooldowns on casting. It all added up to a less tactical and more button mashing of a title. This has been also shown by the comments of those who played DA2 and went back to origins only to notice they keep pressing buttons to attack when in origins it was not needed. In the end it is more of a button masher regardless of your own dislike for the term itself.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 14 septembre 2011 - 11:13 .

[furryrage59]

I call it a button masher because the version i saw encouraged furiously mashing the button for t'awesome.

Pc version was auto attack ala DA:O but stupid fast and over the top.

Meh.

Button mashing and rpgs make me cry inside.

Modifié par furryrage59, 15 septembre 2011 - 01:30 .

[Imrahil_]

The main distinction, for me, in a "button-masher" type game, is that the player's skill matters instead of the character's skill. The faster you hit the button, the faster you attack. The more times you hit the button, the more times you attack. The more accurate you are at targeting, the more often you hit.

Your character's skills may enhance damage, but the player has to mash buttons to determine how skilled your character is at combat. I don't prefer those types of games, although they can be good. TW2 is one such example of a good button-masher/twitchy type of game. The player's skill is more imprtant than the character's.

For example, if your character had 2 levels of Thread Necromancy, he could never resurrect a 7-month old thread. But in a button-masher, if you could hit the X-button, or the left-mouse button, fast enough, then resurrecting a 7-month old thread could be done for any character, regardless of class or skills. That's the difference, to me.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 15 septembre 2011 - 01:40 .

[Morroian]

furryrage59 wrote...

I call it a button masher because the version i saw encouraged furiously mashing the button for t'awesome.

That must have been the initial console version which shipped by mistake without auto attack being implemented, I understand its since been patched in.

[Rocket_Man77]

While the game is faster paced, you still have to pause, just like in Origins. So technically it is still tactical. But overall, I will say Origins was harder.

Both games were great. If I had to rate, I would give Origins a 9.5/10 and DA: II a 8.5/10

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Pausing makes a game tactical? Huh...interesting.

[TEWR]

I'd actually call Origins a button masher too. Just less of one since enemies can be killed in three hits.

The DA series has horrible enemy AI, and DAII made this even worse by having the enemies use the Origins animations with a 2% increase to attack speed while we use the new animations. The enemies don't even use some of the abilities/spells we use, nor do they use Cross class Combos or their own unique tactics.

I've posted my ideas for how to improve combat to make it truly tactical (because pausing =/= tactical) on various threads. Namely the one concerning gameplay in the Gameplay subsection of the DAII forums and page 104 of the constructive criticism thread, so I don't want to repost it again.

DAO and DAII were both button mashers of a sort, but DAII made it worse because of what I mentioned above.

But that's just me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 septembre 2011 - 11:18 .

[furryrage59]

Morroian wrote...

furryrage59 wrote...

I call it a button masher because the version i saw encouraged furiously mashing the button for t'awesome.

That must have been the initial console version which shipped by mistake without auto attack being implemented, I understand its since been patched in.

Yeah it was awhile ago and i haven't touched it since.

[Adrian68b]

DA2 fighthing system is very likely in accordance of the overall story: a tale with many "embelishments" told by Varric. The first time I played the demo I was REALY frustrated. Compared to DAO, the fighting system apeared a perfect mess. But once I started playing Act 2 it became obvious. Just remember Varric's "EPIC" solo fight at Bartrand Estate. Most enemies died at Varric's first shot. Bioware possibly wanted a new approach - RPG in a tale.

[TheReignmaker]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Pausing makes a game tactical? Huh...interesting.

+1

Tactical = positioning, timing, and strategic use of abilities/items

Button mashing = Auto-attacking waves of enemies (click-click-click!!!) and spamming low cooldown abilities

Notice that the pause function enhances one type of gameplay where it merely acts as a tacked-on option for the other.

Modifié par TheReignmaker, 15 septembre 2011 - 09:26 .

[TheReignmaker]

Adrian68b wrote...

DA2 fighthing system is very likely in accordance of the overall story: a tale with many "embelishments" told by Varric. The first time I played the demo I was REALY frustrated. Compared to DAO, the fighting system apeared a perfect mess. But once I started playing Act 2 it became obvious. Just remember Varric's "EPIC" solo fight at Bartrand Estate. Most enemies died at Varric's first shot. Bioware possibly wanted a new approach - RPG in a tale.

A bit off-topic then.  'Cause I have a question for you.

I also played the demo and very much disliked it.  It's not that I don't find enjoyment with these sort of faster-paced games (Torchlight/Diablo), it's just that DA was the only game to come along in a long time to utilize the Baldur's Gate tactics approach - a deep and challenging combat system.  It's a system that encourages experimentation and at times requires you to get out of your comfort zone in order to beat a particular boss.  Furthermore, I felt this was something great that differentiated Bioware's offerings from its competitors.

After playing the demo and hearing from those that have played the game, I resolved not to donate any money to this installment.  Voting with my dollars. 

Having been someone who initially disliked the demo, did you ultimately enjoy DA2?

Modifié par TheReignmaker, 15 septembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[Requiesta De Silencia]

Press R button, do everything from picking up items to attacking...all that's left is spamming 1, 2, or 3 >.>

[Atakuma]

TheReignmaker wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Pausing makes a game tactical? Huh...interesting.

+1

Tactical = positioning, timing, and strategic use of abilities/items

Button mashing = Auto-attacking waves of enemies (click-click-click!!!) and spamming low cooldown abilities

Notice that the pause function enhances one type of gameplay where it merely acts as a tacked-on option for the other.

Just like Origins.

[Adrian68b]

Yes. With the right approach for battles, DA2 is enjoyable pretty much. As in case of DAO, I played it with tactics disabled. I never liked in DAO to use the available tactics options (too limited in my opinion). Of course I paused the game a lot during battles in order to give orders for each character in turn. I also played with the main character a being a rogue, using special attack options as tactical ones (ex. backstabbing as repositioning). In my opinion, a dual-wielding rogue enables a much more fluent fighting style AND tactical approach in DA2 that was ever possible in DAO. I used a little a dual-sword fighter as main character - the average damage is probably higher (perfect for button-hitting players) but tactically it appears to me weaker. I really hated the demo because of the fighting system, but in my opinion DAO-A combat system was much worse (massacre, instant multiple backstabbing). In DA2 is possible to approach battles very much tactically, but you need to be really flexible, to use a lot of repositioning because of the second and third wave of enemies appearing from everywhere.
Of course, I play a RPG game because of the story involved. I played every middle-age Bioware game because of that. DA2 story is quite good. Not perfect, but good.
After I finished DA2 for the first time (last week) I tried to replay a little DAO, in order to compare the two games. I realized that I can't. For the moment, at least, I rank DA2 above DAO for both story AND fighting system. (I bought DA2 only a month ago, because of my intense hatred of the demo).

[JamesMCornett]

I don't know about anyone else, but in DA:O, I was pushing buttons left and right thinking it was actually speeding up the process. Yeah, not so much. Now I feel so bleah playing the original. DA2, however, I feel much more involved in because you actually feel like you're speeding things up, not to mention I find myself using more spells/talents this time around than I did last time. The only thing that kinda ticks me off is that in both games, the warrior's kinda gotten the short end of the stick. I'm not saying knock the other two classes down a bit, but I have just about stopped on my warrior FemHawke, whereas my other two classes I've completed the game with.

[TheReignmaker]

Atakuma wrote...

Just like Origins.

If that's the way you played it, I can't argue the point with you.  I imagine you had to load your game a lot though.

Adrian68b wrote...
After I finished DA2 for the first time (last week) I tried to replay a
little DAO, in order to compare the two games. I realized that I can't.
For the moment, at least, I rank DA2 above DAO for both story AND
fighting system. (I bought DA2 only a month ago, because of my intense
hatred of the demo).

Interesting.  I did hear that the Rogue class was much improved.  If only there was more customization across the board.  I've heard mixed messages on the story, so that's another positive.  What platform did you play it on?  Though I'm not entirely certain, it seems to be the rift in opinion frequently has do with whether you play on a PC or console.

[TEWR]

If that's the way you played it, I can't argue the point with you. I imagine you had to load your game a lot though.

Origins was laughably easy on all difficulties.

for me anyway.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 septembre 2011 - 10:40 .

[Zanallen]

I played Origins and DA2 in much the same way, by ignoring my companions for the most part and playing warrior smash with my PC. Neither game really gave me trouble difficulty-wise, nor did either one require much in the way of strategy.

[Tommyspa]

Is it sad I got killed so much more on DA2's higher difficulties than Origins? I had to think far more tactfully in DA2 compared to Origins to take down baddies.

[Adrian68b]

I played both DAO and DA2 on PC. After playing both games (DAO several times - except DAO-A) I think both are quite playable either in hack and slash or in a strategic/tactical way. I prefer the second approach in RGPs. Of course, you had to choose talents accordingly, and both games do offer a lot of options. Because of the fast-pacing combat system of DA2 one often feels inclined to just mush buttons using much basic attack. I abandoned halfway my first try at DA2 because of that rush feeling (everything was just too fast, compared with DAO). In my second attempt, I learned to choose talents better suited tactically, and the gameplay changed accordingly. Finally I liked the challenges of the multiple waves of enemies forcing me to quick thinking.
I played DA2 only using normal difficulty yet. Is the hard and very hard much challenging in DA2 ? I must admit, I was disappointed by the meager challenge of the hardest difficulty in DAO. I used to increase my level a bit (by the trap trick) only to increase the level of enemies. If DA2 is really challenging at Very hard, that’s good news for me.

[Adrian68b]

Surprisingly, I reloaded DA2 only several times. Of course, it was just my first attempt on Normal. If Very Hard is good challenge, that’s a perfect motivation for a second play.

[Theagg]

Well, I finished my second playthrough of DA2 about 6 weeks ago, and since then have been engaged in replaying DA Origins ( last played about a year ago)

Neither are 'button mashers' in the strict sense that I imagine it (playing on a PC) but both Origins and DA2 combat is prone to spamming to get some jobs done. Tactically speaking, both have similar approaches and as far as I am concerned they are both tactical games to a degree, just that one requires a different tactical approach than the other.

It's certainly true though that enemy mages and demons have been much simplified in their attack modes. So different tactics were needed to deal with them in Origins.

And, as I play through Origins again its quite clear that 'waves' were used a great deal more in Origins than some seem to recall, though certainly not as prolific as in DA2. For the most part, DA Origins waves were staggered in a different manner. (example, first wave of spiders, approach chest/move forward slightly, second wave of spiders..thus giving the illusion of a brief break etc). But still 'waves' by any other name. Quite a few of them

And Origins combat seems painfully slow and clunky now by comparison, even with Wynne running a Haste spell, its still slower than the slowest DA2 encounter. But Origins encounters tend to be over more quickly and often seem more like sudden death encounters only kept going by the ridiculous quantity of potion drinking required per encounter. Potions are much better handled in DA2.

But no, I still don't consider DA2 anything like a button masher.

Modifié par Theagg, 16 septembre 2011 - 12:08 .

[Persona]

I never once died in da2 on nightmare. Why cause I never had to use any tactics. Just button mash and kill waves open waves of enemies. You can stand in the middle of a room filled with enmies and button mash to win. Thats where da2 lost me. DA2 was a fail attempt at a hack and slash rpg.

In DAO I did have to pause and run around way more often. Sometimes going after a stronger npcs befor taking out the ones with less hp. Also with the dragon I had to move away from the front and other areas. The dragon in DA2 was a joke like the rest of the bosses.

[Theagg]

Well strangely pausing and running around was far less effective in Origins for me than it was in DA2. Simply because of the way hits were scored in Origins.

Hence Origins arrows that followed you in a curve, boulders that would hit you even after you had moved well out of the way of their incoming trajectory and weapons/claws/fists etc that would score hits even after you paused and moved away from the enemy weilding them..

Modifié par Theagg, 16 septembre 2011 - 12:39 .