174 réponses à ce sujet

[ExistsAlready]

"A mage" is not capable of casting Firestorm. Just in the same way "a man with a sword" is not capable of Peon's Plight.

Modifié par ExistsAlready, 27 février 2011 - 03:53 .

[Jarek_Cousland]

Mages can do whatever they want, I couldnt care less.


Besides they become abominations, I'll just stick with a sward till they do they're exploding corpse thing.

[TheCreeper]

I believe something like the Circle is needed for mages, they need some sort of organized education system and police force, but the chantry is the wrong person to put in charge of those duties they are simply too restrictive and overly brutal in how they keep the Mages in line.

[Hexadecimal]

A smart man can control people to do as much damage as a mage with a firestorm. Concequently, so could a smart mage, they could possibly convice even more with the magicks and what not, but then we're stuck in and endless cycle of one upping. Theoretically, anything can happen.

It's all relative, damage to cities, damage to society anyone can do them. But from what I've seen, even a mage can't sence a rogue with stealth maxed.
Everything needs to be under control. In the DA universe the normal people are judged by their laws. I don't see why a mage should be judged any different then a normal person.
Hell, the kings of all the prospective lands can hold more power then a mage, but often it seems, they are judged less harshly, because of politics and the likes.

[DieHigh2012]

The mages might be alright for a few generations after. Do ya'll seriously think that somewhere down the line they aren't going to get tired of taking orders from a king they could destroy in a second?

Plus in Teventer(sp?) mages still run the show, and slavery and blood magic are are still a very big part of their culture. How long before these free mages are talked into joining them? If I could pick between being a commoner or a lord...........that's not a hard one in my book.

I think freeing them will ether lead to them being put back in lock and chain with less freedoms, killed and/or made pets likethe Quinary(sp?) do, or a new Tevinter(sp?) empire(aka strait evil ****s). None of those options sound good to me.

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 27 février 2011 - 04:10 .

[LobselVith8]

TheCreeper wrote...

No, Just No. Magic is freaking powerful in DA, A free mage could in theory do a lot of damage if they want to, they can drive a group of people insane, set fire to a city block, etc with just a quick spell

There are already free mages in Thedas: Rivain has its seers, the Chasind tribes and the Dalish clans have mages among them, and even the morally bankrupt town of Haven had mages outside of Chantry and templar control. If you look at the Chantry's own history, mages were imprisoned as a result of a nonviolent protest (History of the Circle codex) and the Circles were formed because of Emperor Drakon's religious convictions (History of the Chantry Part Four) so I don't get the impression that the Chantry or the templars are needed.

[Nemis-Roidsavelt]

We apostates deserve freedom. If i was an apostate living in the Dragon Age time period i would do everything in my power and sacrifice everything in the pursuit of destroying the chantry and the templars. Damn all those who apose my freedom.

[TJPags]

I wouldn't mind loosening the rules on mages a bit.  Let mages who have proved themselves responsible live outside the Tower, maybe with a requirement to check in with the nearest Chantry/Templar once a month, have to let them know if they intend to travel, etc., allow random checks.  Maybe a yearly check-up in the Tower.

I do still think there should be standardized training under controlled conditions, which the Tower provides and can still provide.

But, if the option is what we have now, or letting mages run free, I'm all in favor of what we have now.

[MasterSamson88]

Nobody posted the "The Order Dictates" picture...? I'm disappointed.

Anyway, to add to the conversation. Some people have mentioned the Tevinter Imperium and how bad it is. But what I'm wondering is how much truth there is to it. Who's to say this isn't just some Chantry propaganda, and that all these Tevinter slavers we keep saying are just outcasts or fugitives. Certainly the rest of Thedas already has it's fair share of blood thirsty blood mages and slavers who are of non-Tevinter lineage.

But in many ways I feel that the Chantry might be spreading false words about the Tevinter Imperium to keep the mages of Thedas in line. The whole chant of the Templars is that "Magic should serve man, and never rule over them." Which clearly points at the high point of the Imperium. But under this continued logic that technically means that no matter how intelligent a mage is, no matter how much more qualified and learned he may be than a noble or a priest, he can never, ever, hold a position of power because his magic would be perceived as ruling over them. People would fear that this mage would use his magic to control them. And the Chantry believes that this is inevitable because mages are inherently dangerous. Which in turn propagates the continued herding of Mages into closed and sealed off towers where the Templars continue to watch over them.

That post turned out longer than anticipated!

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 27 février 2011 - 04:50 .

[D.Kain]

I personally don't want do be fare to people in this game. I want to free all mages, unite and abuse magic. I want to make a second imperium ruled by mages. Kill all those who oppose, and try to fix the golden city somehow, do it right this time. With enough resources and time, research maybe the golden city really can be restored, maybe learn to control fade spirits, so many opportunities. Would really encourage mages to look down on other people though, let mages use their gift to make others serve them. Train all mages in offense and defense, train them to counter templars, train them in blood magic and train them to resist demons from the fade, not to become mallificars, better they rule over the spirits and demons not other way around.

So yeah, something like that. It's not fare to all people, but that's my fantasy of how I would like to role play a mage.

[cglasgow]

Mages in a Lawful Evil dictatorship like the Tevinter Imperium aren't exactly 'free range'. Its just that they're monitored and murdered by their Tevinter masters rather than templars.

After all, not even evil people want an abomination killin' their whole town Connor Guerrin styles.

[Eludajae]

Well while you only interact with them quest wise I always wondered why the Chantry did not hunt down that independent mages guild you could do quests for. I mean not only would they be considered apostates, they were organized. Never understood why you were never given quests to hunt them down. Anyway, I love the fact that Hawke and Bethany are apostates, gives a new take on things for mages.

[MisanthropePrime]

The problem isn't mages in and of themselves- it's that people barely understand them, including mages in and of themselves.

Had mages not be kept locked up in towers all the time, I'm sure that the technology level of Thedas would be vastly improved: magic would be used much like science. It's because people sequester them and mythologize them that no one studies them and figures out how magic works. Part of this may be because the most analytical culture in Thedas- the dwarves- are incapable of being mages, but I'd bet my sweet bippy that a couple of decades of studying the physics behind magic would lead to Thedas being roughly comparable to the 20th century.

[Infaela]

I'm kind of surprised by how vehemently people will defend the imprisonment and occasional killing of innocent folks for the sake of others' alleged safety.  Considering how much damage a well-trained person can do with modern technology (or heck, even with a sword) I'd think people would have a bit more perspective about the notion that anyone who can do something dangerous should be locked up, just in case.  Heck, we let 16 year olds drive and the world hasn't ended yet.

There's got to be a fair amount of gray area between the Chantry and the Imperium.  I'm sure the Chantry would argue that what they do is gray area, since killing all mages would be the most extreme approach, but I would suggest that it's repressive enough to still fall on the bad side of reasonable precaution.

[DieHigh2012]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Nobody posted the "The Order Dictates" picture...? I'm disappointed.

Anyway, to add to the conversation. Some people have mentioned the Tevinter Imperium and how bad it is. But what I'm wondering is how much truth there is to it. Who's to say this isn't just some Chantry propaganda, and that all these Tevinter slavers we keep saying are just outcasts or fugitives. Certainly the rest of Thedas already has it's fair share of blood thirsty blood mages and slavers who are of non-Tevinter lineage.

But in many ways I feel that the Chantry might be spreading false words about the Tevinter Imperium to keep the mages of Thedas in line. The whole chant of the Templars is that "Magic should serve man, and never rule over them." Which clearly points at the high point of the Imperium. But under this continued logic that technically means that no matter how intelligent a mage is, no matter how much more qualified and learned he may be than a noble or a priest, he can never, ever, hold a position of power because his magic would be perceived as ruling over them. People would fear that this mage would use his magic to control them. And the Chantry believes that this is inevitable because mages are inherently dangerous. Which in turn propagates the continued herding of Mages into closed and sealed off towers where the Templars continue to watch over them.

That post turned out longer than anticipated!

The dalish still talk of the enslavement that lasted a thousand years, and that the Tevinter mages used powerful blood magic to crush the city of arlathin(sp?) into the ground.

Yes, dont forget that the chant was written a long long time ago, those long forgotten people must have made that a major point for some reason. Everything that that we know of the Imperium is very very bad. Slavery is still common practice, as we found out from the slavers in denerim.

Edit: In Tevinter the mages are the overlords.

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 27 février 2011 - 05:13 .

[DieHigh2012]

Infaela wrote...

I'm kind of surprised by how vehemently people will defend the imprisonment and occasional killing of innocent folks for the sake of others' alleged safety.  Considering how much damage a well-trained person can do with modern technology (or heck, even with a sword) I'd think people would have a bit more perspective about the notion that anyone who can do something dangerous should be locked up, just in case.  Heck, we let 16 year olds drive and the world hasn't ended yet.

There's got to be a fair amount of gray area between the Chantry and the Imperium.  I'm sure the Chantry would argue that what they do is gray area, since killing all mages would be the most extreme approach, but I would suggest that it's repressive enough to still fall on the bad side of reasonable precaution.

I only see mages getting out of control again or being much worst off as a result of freedom. Until I see a way to fix the obvious problems I see, I'll say keep them as they are.

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 27 février 2011 - 05:10 .

[lost lupus]

jamirflyd2 wrote...

Mages can be dangereous and that's a fact. Magic can be evil and that's a fact. The Chantry does not lie but I mean it depends of indivduals. Like since Anders is a little crazy in real life I would not want him walking the streets. Same thing will killer or robber, do you want them walking aorund because they have the gift of theft and murder??? *_*

good point Rogues: are theives and assasins they should be locked up!

[LobselVith8]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

The dalish still talk of the enslavement that lasted a thousand years, and that the Tevinter mages used powerful blood magic to crush the city of arlathin(sp?) into the ground.

Yes, dont forget that the chant was written a long long time ago, those long forgotten people must have made that a major point for some reason. Everything that that we know of the Imperium is very very bad. Slavery is still common practice, as we found out from the slavers in denerim.

Edit: In Tevinter the mages are the overlords.

True, the Tevinter Imperium destroyed Arlathan and enslaved the elves, and the ancient elves had mages among them (as Witch Hunt verifies). Tevinter and Orlais actually conquered nations right after aiding them in the Third Blight (which is why Nevarra and Orlais have such a difficult relationship with one another) so I don't think they've changed for the better. I'd imagine that if Hawke can liberate the mages of Kirkwall, he (or she) can do so without turning the city-state into another Tevinter.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 27 février 2011 - 05:15 .

[Vhaius]

Melness wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Melness wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

TheDarkRats wrote...

I'm all for mages freedom, but a free mage might become a maleificar, and a loose maleificar isn't good... I think the Circle should have more freedom though, and they should make Mage cities where the mages can be watched over and their families can come too.

Frankly I don't think there is anything wrong with Blood Magic  itself, it was simply abused by the Imperium.

It appears to me that Blood Magic itself isn't necessarily bad, but the worst comes from its association with demonology.

And that's bad.

Actually Blood Magic is not even tied to  Demons and spirits, it may (key word, may )  have been taught by Old Gods and or demons but it doesn't call on them or spirits.

This seems to be the current belief in the forums, one I'm adept of, but I can't find any citations. Regardless, what I meant is: how many Blood Mages out there don't dabble in demonology?

Not many right? That is the worst of Maleficarum.

You can find a citation here.

Blood Mage: Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror
as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and
twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and
sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not.
The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen
and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free,
because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It
remains an undeniably violent and self-destructive discipline, however,
and the Blood Mage must be careful. The temptation to take just a little
more is always there.

Modifié par Vhaius, 27 février 2011 - 05:16 .

[DieHigh2012]

lost lupus wrote...

jamirflyd2 wrote...

Mages can be dangereous and that's a fact. Magic can be evil and that's a fact. The Chantry does not lie but I mean it depends of indivduals. Like since Anders is a little crazy in real life I would not want him walking the streets. Same thing will killer or robber, do you want them walking aorund because they have the gift of theft and murder??? *_*

good point Rogues: are theives and assasins they should be locked up!

The difference is a rouge HAS to stab you, Warriors HAVE to cut you. While a mage can turn you into a walking bomb with a thought, or drain you dry through blood magic.

We are not talking about some humans with slight differences in culture, but people with a crap ton of power that have already abused that power when left to thier own devices.

[MasterSamson88]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Nobody posted the "The Order Dictates" picture...? I'm disappointed.

Anyway, to add to the conversation. Some people have mentioned the Tevinter Imperium and how bad it is. But what I'm wondering is how much truth there is to it. Who's to say this isn't just some Chantry propaganda, and that all these Tevinter slavers we keep saying are just outcasts or fugitives. Certainly the rest of Thedas already has it's fair share of blood thirsty blood mages and slavers who are of non-Tevinter lineage.

But in many ways I feel that the Chantry might be spreading false words about the Tevinter Imperium to keep the mages of Thedas in line. The whole chant of the Templars is that "Magic should serve man, and never rule over them." Which clearly points at the high point of the Imperium. But under this continued logic that technically means that no matter how intelligent a mage is, no matter how much more qualified and learned he may be than a noble or a priest, he can never, ever, hold a position of power because his magic would be perceived as ruling over them. People would fear that this mage would use his magic to control them. And the Chantry believes that this is inevitable because mages are inherently dangerous. Which in turn propagates the continued herding of Mages into closed and sealed off towers where the Templars continue to watch over them.

That post turned out longer than anticipated!

The dalish still talk of the enslavement that lasted a thousand years, and that the Tevinter mages used powerful blood magic to crush the city of arlathin(sp?) into the ground.

Yes, dont forget that the chant was written a long long time ago, those long forgotten people must have made that a major point for some reason. Everything that that we know of the Imperium is very very bad. Slavery is still common practice, as we found out from the slavers in denerim.

My main point is I'm wondering if the Imperium has changed since the days of Arlathan and Andraste. And like I said earlier, for all we know the slavers in the Alienage could have been criminals even in Tevinter. No country is so pure as to have no slave trade what so ever.


I'll also raise another modern day question. Orlais. It seems that by all means the Orlesians abused Ferelden terribly, and when they were finally kicked out by the King and Loghain, nothing was ever done against them, Orlais also destoryed the Dales and forced many Elves into servitude and alienages. By all means the Olesian empire seems to be filling the vacuum left by the Tevinter Imperium millenia ago. In some ways they're just as bad as well perhaps more subtle, one of the things they lack though is magic. The Chantry could care less what Orlais does with its tremendous power.

But one of the reasons nobody seem so to have an overtly terrible attitude towards orlais, save for Ferelden, is because of the Divine posted there in Val Royeaux, which is the capital of Orlais, and the base of the Chantry.

The Chantry obviously prefers Orlais, and also obviously hates the Tevinter Imperium. Yes because some posts in the Tevinter government are held by mages, but also because of the split in the Chantry that occured some time ago, that same split that spurred the Divine Mother to send three sperate Exalted Marches to Tevinter, because of a dispute over whether or not Andraste was devine.  Long story short, I feel like the Chantry obviously prefers some countries over others, and is in a sort of smear campaign against the Imperium.

Modifié par MasterSamson88, 27 février 2011 - 05:20 .

[borelocin]

The Chantry and their Templars oppose any power they do not control as being inherently evil.
Templars could hunt down dangerous magic users (similar to say, The Witcher) instead of enslaving or killing all magic users en masse.

[Infaela]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

I only see mages getting out of control again or being much worst off as a result. Until I see a way to fix the obvious problems I'll say keep them as they are.

I think any fix to the obvious problems is probably going to be beyond the current discussion.  Complicated as the situation is and all.

I suppose my primary beef with the way mages are dealt with stems from the fact that it's all based on dogma, which is notoriously inflexible stuff.  The people, both those in charge of the system and those in its "care", aren't really free to try to do things differently because they already have a right path proscribed.  When variation is not tolerated enough, people who can't live with the status quo don't have enough of an outlet to stay peaceable forever.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is... and I think we've seen some things in Awakening and elsewhere that suggest this is true... the system as it is is too extreme not to be challenged.  If it was more open to reform then conflict might be less likely but as it is, I don't think the Chantry can keep them as they are.

[LobselVith8]

Infaela wrote...

I'm kind of surprised by how vehemently people will defend the imprisonment and occasional killing of innocent folks for the sake of others' alleged safety.  Considering how much damage a well-trained person can do with modern technology (or heck, even with a sword) I'd think people would have a bit more perspective about the notion that anyone who can do something dangerous should be locked up, just in case.  Heck, we let 16 year olds drive and the world hasn't ended yet.

There's got to be a fair amount of gray area between the Chantry and the Imperium.  I'm sure the Chantry would argue that what they do is gray area, since killing all mages would be the most extreme approach, but I would suggest that it's repressive enough to still fall on the bad side of reasonable precaution.

I'm not surprised at all. It's easy to excuse what the Chantry does because they aren't the ones who lose their rights and get imprisoned. I remember what Pastor Niemoller wrote, "First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.  Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me." That's the crux of the problem.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

The dalish still talk of the enslavement that lasted a thousand years, and that the Tevinter mages used powerful blood magic to crush the city of arlathin(sp?) into the ground.

Yes, dont forget that the chant was written a long long time ago, those long forgotten people must have made that a major point for some reason. Everything that that we know of the Imperium is very very bad. Slavery is still common practice, as we found out from the slavers in denerim.

Edit: In Tevinter the mages are the overlords.

True, the Tevinter Imperium destroyed Arlathan and enslaved the elves, and the ancient elves had mages among them (as Witch Hunt verifies). Tevinter and Orlais actually conquered nations right after aiding them in the Third Blight (which is why Nevarra and Orlais have such a difficult relationship with one another) so I don't think they've changed for the better. I'd imagine that if Hawke can liberate the mages of Kirkwall, he (or she) can do so without turning the city-state into another Tevinter.

Yes and how long will that last? The mages have already shown what happends when you just let them be. There has to be something that dosent alow them to follow that same path, or it will happen again. I dont agree with how they are treated, but just turning them lose on the world seems abit naive to me.

There might be an awnser, but I have yet see one that covers all the bases.

EDIT: Wow, thier is no compairson for this IRL, its foolish to think that there is.....

This is a LORE debate

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 27 février 2011 - 05:26 .