174 réponses à ce sujet

[borelocin]

And the Fereldans and Orlesians, with the nice tame collared mages, and the same Chantry teaching them to be good little non-stormers-of-the-golden-city have still engaged in centuries of ethnic cleansing, slavery and fratricidal war.

[LobselVith8]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

I only see mages getting out of control again or being much worst off as a result of freedom. Until I see a way to fix the obvious problems I see, I'll say keep them as they are.

The first step toward fixing the problem would be to stop imprisoning innocent people under a system that takes away their basic rights and can give them a lobotomy or kill them on suspicion and heresay.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Yes and how long will that last? The mages have already shown what happends when you just let them be.

Yes, the Dales, Haven, the Chasind, Rivain, the Dalish, and the Mages Collective all show us what happens when mages are free: they don't turn into another Tevinter.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

There has to be something that dosent alow them to follow that same path, or it will happen again. I dont agree with how they are treated, but just turning them lose on the world seems abit naive to me.

There might be an awnser, but I have yet see one that covers all the bases.

I'd imagine emancipating an oppressed people wouldn't be "turning them loose" but giving them long overdue freedom after nearly a milennia of virtual slavery (the tranquil) and being treated as little more than thralls.

[DieHigh2012]

Infaela wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

I only see mages getting out of control again or being much worst off as a result. Until I see a way to fix the obvious problems I'll say keep them as they are.

I think any fix to the obvious problems is probably going to be beyond the current discussion.  Complicated as the situation is and all.

I suppose my primary beef with the way mages are dealt with stems from the fact that it's all based on dogma, which is notoriously inflexible stuff.  The people, both those in charge of the system and those in its "care", aren't really free to try to do things differently because they already have a right path proscribed.  When variation is not tolerated enough, people who can't live with the status quo don't have enough of an outlet to stay peaceable forever.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is... and I think we've seen some things in Awakening and elsewhere that suggest this is true... the system as it is is too extreme not to be challenged.  If it was more open to reform then conflict might be less likely but as it is, I don't think the Chantry can keep them as they are.

I would agree that its about at the boiling point, and some reform I think would be good. My agrument was more focused on the "just let them be free crowd"

[Esoj16]

I think the Chantry, Circle and Templar system is a necessity, but I also think it's time to reform the status quo.

My proposition is as follows:
1. Allow mages to leave the tower at the age of 25 as long as they agree to allow templars to check up on them from time to time and to pledge not to use forbidden magic.
2. Allow family of mages to have weekly visits to their kids for as long as the mage remains in the circle tower.
3. Templars should be stationed in every town and settlement that has mages in order to provide safety to the townsfolk in case the mage goes rogue.
4. Mages should help the towns they live in by performing social services such as setting up clinics but they should not hold public office(?) or work directly with powerful public figures, such as the king, unless there are templars around that are trained to detect and break mind control.
5. Taxes should be raised by 5% for the entire population and 40% of a mage's income should go to the chantry in order to finance the reform. (A 5% tax is no biggy considering they'll be getting magical doctors =P and if mages want freedom, they have to pay up, public safety isn't cheap)

[Esoj16]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Yes, the Dales, Haven, the Chasind, Rivain, the Dalish, and the Mages Collective all show us what happens when mages are free: they don't turn into another Tevinter.

I'm not sure you want to use Haven, the Chasind and the Mages Collective as an example......The people of Haven were crazy.....there are tales of abominations running loose in the wild all the time, why do you think that is?......and the mages collective had some pretty shady quests, I'm not so sure we should trust them.

[Infaela]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

I would agree that its about at the boiling point, and some reform I think would be good. My agrument was more focused on the "just let them be free crowd"

Well, in my heart I am a member of the just let them be free crowd, but I was more talking about what can actually be done in the situation as it is.  Just setting them free would lead to all kinds of trouble for them and all the people who have been taught, for generations, to hate and fear them.  At the very least, the mages would need to organize their own rules and their own methods for finding and training young mages as well as keeping the more nefarious sort in line.  Which is why I do not suggest a solution.  I do, however, feel that setting them free would be the right thing to do, if not necessarily the best thing to do.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

I only see mages getting out of control again or being much worst off as a result of freedom. Until I see a way to fix the obvious problems I see, I'll say keep them as they are.

The first step toward fixing the problem would be to stop imprisoning innocent people under a system that takes away their basic rights and can give them a lobotomy or kill them on suspicion and heresay.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

Yes and how long will that last? The mages have already shown what happends when you just let them be.

Yes, the Dales, Haven, the Chasind, Rivain, the Dalish, and the Mages Collective all show us what happens when mages are free: they don't turn into another Tevinter.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

There has to be something that dosent alow them to follow that same path, or it will happen again. I dont agree with how they are treated, but just turning them lose on the world seems abit naive to me.

There might be an awnser, but I have yet see one that covers all the bases.

I'd imagine emancipating an oppressed people wouldn't be "turning them loose" but giving them long overdue freedom after nearly a milennia of virtual slavery (the tranquil) and being treated as little more than thralls.

The chantry is the reason the humans havent been able to from a new Tevinter (Haven, the Chasind, Rivain, mages collective) the Dalish are interested in surviving, little else. Can you imagine how quick an exalted march/inquistion would be called if they even tryed to take any kind of real power? Pretty quick I imagine, and I think they would know that too.

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 27 février 2011 - 05:41 .

[lost lupus]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

lost lupus wrote...

jamirflyd2 wrote...

Mages can be dangereous and that's a fact. Magic can be evil and that's a fact. The Chantry does not lie but I mean it depends of indivduals. Like since Anders is a little crazy in real life I would not want him walking the streets. Same thing will killer or robber, do you want them walking aorund because they have the gift of theft and murder??? *_*

good point Rogues: are theives and assasins they should be locked up!

The difference is a rouge HAS to stab you, Warriors HAVE to cut you. While a mage can turn you into a walking bomb with a thought, or drain you dry through blood magic.

We are not talking about some humans with slight differences in culture, but people with a crap ton of power that have already abused that power when left to thier own devices.

now his is series im even more afraid of rogues they have some strange complusion to break into your homes and chest's and assassinate people

Modifié par lost lupus, 27 février 2011 - 05:44 .

[Haussier]

I have no problem with apostates.. makes for a good story heheheh.

Well if were talking about solutions for mages...
1. gather them up as they do already
2. Keep phylacteries as they do
3. after a mage meets a certain standard of control let them loose. (they need to find something better than the harrowing and rite of tranquality)
4. ban them from state politics
5. keep large assortment of templars to deal with criminal mages. (they can track them with the phylacteries)

Modifié par Haussier, 27 février 2011 - 05:49 .

[MisanthropePrime]

Obviously we need to institute a eugenics program to ensure that the entire population will eventually be mages.

[LobselVith8]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

EDIT: Wow, thier is no compairson for this IRL, its foolish to think that there is.....

That seems to be a subtle way to call me a fool for having a different opinion than you, which I think is entirely unwarranted. If you have any basis for disputing what I said, feel free to provide an intelligent retort for what I said. You can read the Chantry's own history and see that mages were restricted of their rights by Emperor Drakon because of his religious views (History of the Chantry Part Four) and mages were imprisoned because they had a nonviolent protest in a cathedral over their lack of rights in Orlesian society (History of the Circle).

DieHigh2012 wrote...

This is a LORE debate

Where you felt the need to lack an argument and make a veiled comment at me instead of providing an argument of substance? This is a debate about apostates and what the Chantry is doing. If I find it morally repugnant and cite why I think some people would do nothing about the oppression and imprisoning innocent people, I see no reason not to address it.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

The chantry is the reason the humans havent been able to from a new Tevinter (Haven, the Chasind, Rivain, mages collective) the Dalish are interested in surviving, little else. Can you imagine how quick an exalted march/inquistion would be called if they even tryed to take anykind of power? Pretty quick I imagine, and I think they would know that too.

Instead, the Chantry has become Tevinter 2.0, having the mages as their own arsenal to aim at the Qunari's advanced technology or to use as little more than slaves after giving them a lobotomy so they can do menial tasks and craft magical items.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 27 février 2011 - 05:50 .

[Infaela]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Infaela wrote...

EDIT: Wow, thier is no compairson for this IRL, its foolish to think that there is.....

Infaela wrote...

This is a LORE debate

Er, I didn't write either of those things.

[LobselVith8]

Infaela wrote...

Er, I didn't write either of those things.

Sorry about that! I corrected the mistake.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Infaela wrote...

EDIT: Wow, thier is no compairson for this IRL, its foolish to think that there is.....

That seems to be a subtle way to call me a fool for having a different opinion than you, which I think is entirely unwarranted. If you have any basis for disputing what I said, feel free to provide an intelligent retort for what I said. You can read the Chantry's own history and see that mages were restricted of their rights by Emperor Drakon because of his religious views (History of the Chantry Part Four) and mages were imprisoned because they had a nonviolent protest in a cathedral over their lack of rights in Orlesian society (History of the Circle).

Infaela wrote...

This is a LORE debate

Where you felt the need to lack an argument and make a veiled comment at me instead of providing an argument of substance? This is a debate about apostates and what the Chantry is doing. If I find it morally repugnant and cite why I think some people would choose to support oppression and imprisoning innocent people, I see no reason not to address it.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

The chantry is the reason the humans havent been able to from a new Tevinter (Haven, the Chasind, Rivain, mages collective) the Dalish are interested in surviving, little else. Can you imagine how quick an exalted march/inquistion would be called if they even tryed to take anykind of power? Pretty quick I imagine, and I think they would know that too.

Instead, the Chantry has become Tevinter 2.0, having the mages as their own arsenal to aim at the Qunari's advanced technology or to use as little more than slaves after giving them a lobotomy so they can do menial tasks and craft magical items.

In your post I felt that you were comparing me to a ****, or, at the very lest, someone who wouldn't care about what happend to the jews as long they didn't mess with me. Much more offencive than what I said, don't you think?

This is about the lore of the Dragon Age universe, I simple meant try to your restrict post to that.....

I belive that the old Tevinter was much worse than the Chantry, lets not forget it wasn't just elves that fought against them. It was a whole multitude people of different creeds forgetting thier differences and uniting with one goal. To crush the Imperium.


EDIT: the blocked word is those german folks with a love swastikas

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 27 février 2011 - 06:02 .

[Grunk]

Train them and police them. Seems pretty obvious to me. No need to necessarily keep them locked up; just make the Circles mandatory schooling for mages. I'm also not entirely sure the whole Harrowing thing is necessary.

Just need to produce more templars, really. It'd be like having a bomb squad on a police force, only the bomb is alive and might be possessed by a monster. Heck, they could use the Circle to do this too, and have routine check-ups to make sure no mage is out there cutting him/herself to do blood magic or whatever it is you need to do to cast blood magic. Plus, with the Circle on their side, I can't imagine dealing with rogue mages would be insurmountable.

They're dangerous, but if they had situations that treated them like humans, they'd just act like other humans. They'd be more dangerous, but that's why oversights like templars (with aid from the Circles) could exist.

[Infaela]

The comparison might have been over the top, but I don't think it was intended to suggest that, and if we don't want the mods swooping down upon us this should maybe be dropped or forgiven.

[LobselVith8]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

In your post I was talking about I feel that you were comparing me to a ****, or, at the very lest, someone who wouldn't care about what happend to the jews as long they didn't mess with me. Much more offencive than what I said, don't you think?

About the fact that people in Thedas don't care about what happens to mages because it doesn't happen to them personally? I think it's an accurate assessment of how people allow a dictatorship to thrive when innocent people suffer. People do nothing when it doesn't directly involve them.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

This is about the lore of the Dragon Age universe, I simple meant try to your post restricted to that.....

It already is restricted to that. Addressing why people don't do anything about injustice doesn't change the fact that it's still a debate about the lore of DA.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

I belive that the old Tevinter was much worse than the Chantry, lets not forget it wasn't just elves that fought against then. It was a whole multitude people of different creeds forgetting thier differences and uniting with one goal. To crush the Imperium.

No. It was Andraste and Shartan leading humans and elves against Tevinter. We later see the Chantry become another Teviner by subjugating an entire group of people in their Circles, supporting the invasion of other nations, and the questionable events of the Exalted March on the Dales that lead to the elven religion becoming illegal and elves being converted to the Andrastian faith (which is what the Dalish claim started the war in the first place as their codex states templars were sent in after they kicked out their missionaries).

[Packmaster Jack]

..let's see.. using their own proscribed methods (magic -- and not just that but *blood* magic -- and look at the size of those phylacteries! That's not a few bits of blood from a pinprick!) to enforce their dogmatic control.  Putting innocent people face to face and in battle with demons as a trial by fire and killing the abominations that result from their own barbarism. Furthering this control by taking recruits and exposing them to a highly-addictive and toxic substance to further their training -- a substance that is not needed and only used to expedite the process of training, and furthermore eventually leads to addled madness! -- and sets them over a group of people they're instructed to distrust. Then we take anyone with an inkling of arcane power -- an accident of birth, really -- as a child, tear them away from their families, strip them of all rights, and put them through abusive training ("block this spell! or else!"), keep them locked up inside an oppressive facility when not being used as siege weapons for the State and the Church....

..and we're not even going to get into the Tranquil and the forced and involuntary infliction of that state on unwilling individuals, or the right to butcher and execute an entire enclave of Mages wholesale if "the ends justify the means."

Mages are dangerous. Chant-spewing zealots with far too much power at their disposal are even moreso -- and that's before you get into the sort of rampant corruption and incestuous power-plays we see the Chantry dealing in now and again (and by "now and again" we should say "roughly every other town"). The Circles are not a bad idea in theory -- a safe, sheltered place to teach Mages how to control their powers -- which let's not forget, are not just fireballs and walking bombs, but healing, protection, and more.

What's a bad idea in theory *and* in practice is letting the Chantry have any involvement in their operations whatsoever.

Modifié par Packmaster Jack, 27 février 2011 - 06:14 .

[panamakira]

I hope that at least mages can gain more freedom. The Chantry needs to have waaay less power and maybe the Circle can police the possible threats on their own, without Templars or at least Templars that are no addicted to lyrium. Alistar had effective Templar training and not addicted to lyrium. He even mentioned how it's probably a trick the Chantry uses to get them addicted.

If the Chantry can change inside out, Templars without lyrium, recruit more people who are open minded to mages and then act as "supporting" role to the Circle, not imprisoning mages would be a compromise I could live with in the game~

Modifié par panamakira, 27 février 2011 - 06:15 .

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

In your post I was talking about I feel that you were comparing me to a ****, or, at the very lest, someone who wouldn't care about what happend to the jews as long they didn't mess with me. Much more offencive than what I said, don't you think?

About the fact that people in Thedas don't care about what happens to mages because it doesn't happen to them personally? I think it's an accurate assessment of how people allow a dictatorship to thrive when innocent people suffer. People do nothing when it doesn't directly involve them.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

This is about the lore of the Dragon Age universe, I simple meant try to your post restricted to that.....

It already is restricted to that. Addressing why people don't do anything about injustice doesn't change the fact that it's still a debate about the lore of DA.

DieHigh2012 wrote...

I belive that the old Tevinter was much worse than the Chantry, lets not forget it wasn't just elves that fought against then. It was a whole multitude people of different creeds forgetting thier differences and uniting with one goal. To crush the Imperium.

No. It was Andraste and Shartan leading humans and elves against Tevinter. We later see the Chantry become another Teviner by subjugating an entire group of people in their Circles, supporting the invasion of other nations, and the questionable events of the Exalted March on the Dales that lead to the elven religion becoming illegal and elves being converted to the Andrastian faith (which is what the Dalish claim started the war in the first place as their codex states templars were sent in after they kicked out their missionaries).

Yes, but the subject wasn't the people of Thedas, it was the people posting on this board. That's who the poster was talking about.

Since the post you commented on was more about the people in the forum defending the chantry, can you now see why I might have taken that as an atack?

The elves joined Andraste she actually had her own army, her husband was a general in that army (not an elf). The person that carried her ashes to the temple in the mountains (can't remember the name right now) was also human. The elves where a part of the army, not the whole army.

Modifié par DieHigh2012, 27 février 2011 - 06:17 .

[Nemis-Roidsavelt]

Part of me wishes this game was an MMO so i could kill all you maniacs who would appose the freedom of the mages...................I seriously want you all dead.
I would gladly turn over to blood magic and merge with a demon to crush all who would apose the freedom of mages, and even sacrifice myself if i had to for the greater good.

Its you mage haters who enslave the mages which create abominations. If you maniacs didnt imprision them then they wouldnt have to turn to such drastic measures to fight for their freedom.

[LobselVith8]

DieHigh2012 wrote...

The elves joined Andraste she actually had her own army, her husband was a general in that army (not an elf). The person that carried her ashes to the temple in the mountains (can't remember the name right now) was also human. The elves where a part of the army, not the whole army.

The elves served under Shartan, and Shartan allied with Andraste. Some speculate that Andraste may have been a mage (based on the book in Orzammar).  Despite fighting a war against Tevinter, neither Andraste nor her children make any effort to restrict or even imprison mages after Andraste's death and her children presided over different parts of Thedas. It happened as a direct result of Drakon's views based on one particular Cult of Andraste, and his enforcement of those views through the Exalted Marches he lead to become the first Emperor of Orlais. Since imprisoning mages had nothing to do with protecting people, I don't see the point in oppressing innocent people to the point where they either run away or start a revolution to be free, but we're clearly not going to agree on the issue.

[DieHigh2012]

Nemis-Roidsavelt wrote...

Part of me wishes this game was an MMO so i could kill all you maniacs who would appose the freedom of the mages...................I seriously want you all dead.
I would gladly turn over to blood magic and merge with a demon to crush all who would apose the freedom of mages, and even sacrifice myself if i had to for the greater good.

Its you mage haters who enslave the mages which create abominations. If you maniacs didnt imprision them then they wouldnt have to turn to such drastic measures to fight for their freedom.

Except in old Tevinter, the mages enslaved everyone and freely practiced horrible blood magic on the less fortunate. That's why your rights are restricted now. Blame the old mages for being so dang evil, they are the ones you should be blaming.

[Haussier]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

The elves joined Andraste she actually had her own army, her husband was a general in that army (not an elf). The person that carried her ashes to the temple in the mountains (can't remember the name right now) was also human. The elves where a part of the army, not the whole army.

The elves served under Shartan, and Shartan allied with Andraste. Some speculate that Andraste may have been a mage (based on the book in Orzammar).  Despite fighting a war against Tevinter, neither Andraste nor her children make any effort to restrict or even imprison mages after Andraste's death and her children presided over different parts of Thedas. It happened as a direct result of Drakon's views based on one particular Cult of Andraste, and his enforcement of those views through the Exalted Marches he lead to become the first Emperor of Orlais. Since imprisoning mages had nothing to do with protecting people, I don't see the point in oppressing innocent people to the point where they either run away or start a revolution to be free, but we're clearly not going to agree on the issue.

It's always been about power.. and giving the templars something to do besides bother normal people.

[DieHigh2012]

LobselVith8 wrote...

DieHigh2012 wrote...

The elves joined Andraste she actually had her own army, her husband was a general in that army (not an elf). The person that carried her ashes to the temple in the mountains (can't remember the name right now) was also human. The elves where a part of the army, not the whole army.

The elves served under Shartan, and Shartan allied with Andraste. Some speculate that Andraste may have been a mage (based on the book in Orzammar).  Despite fighting a war against Tevinter, neither Andraste nor her children make any effort to restrict or even imprison mages after Andraste's death and her children presided over different parts of Thedas. It happened as a direct result of Drakon's views based on one particular Cult of Andraste, and his enforcement of those views through the Exalted Marches he lead to become the first Emperor of Orlais. Since imprisoning mages had nothing to do with protecting people, I don't see the point in oppressing innocent people to the point where they either run away or start a revolution to be free, but we're clearly not going to agree on the issue.

Yea, because you keep changing the subject.....