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[Orcvader]

[quote]Orcvader wrote...

Is it true you can hook up with Samara/Mori and not count as an LI or mess with any LI's?[/quote]

It's true that you can pursue romance with either and it wont count as your love interest, though there are different reasons and pursuing Morinth will mess up your chances with any other LI.[/quote]

OMG!

Cause of the disease thing? That would be funny... since Mordin had the STD "talk" with me....

[spacehamsterZH]

Smeelia wrote...
It's true that you can pursue romance with either and it wont count as your love interest, though there are different reasons and pursuing Morinth will mess up your chances with any other LI.

Hahaha. Well, that's one way of putting it, I guess.

[Biotic_Warlock]

omgodzilla wrote...

Then I hope that your squad finds out about it in ME3. I wanna see what their reaction to it would be.

Kelly would die instantly.
You know what she's like.

[jbblue05]

Smeelia wrote...

Well she has killed people over the course of 400 years and perverting a village to make live sacrifices to you then turning them against a Justicar knowing they'll die just so you can escape seems a little worse than merely killing them (Samara spares the unaffected children as well remember so she's not just killing indiscriminately).  Morinth hasn't succeeded in killing Samara either, even when she had an entire village of people fighting for her (while Samara has only ever been fighting alone until now).

Samara has killed for 700+ years and evrybody on your squad has done a lot of killing.
Samara could've left the village alone but Samara chose to attack it.  
So Samara can do something evil, but if shes does something nice later on its OK

Morinth was trying to escape , she wants to live, she knows their is a 50/50 chance she might win or lose. 

It sounds a lot like mind control from their comments, kind of like the reaper indoctrination in some ways (a subtle aura type thing).  They don't know why they feel compelled to like her but they do, I think Nef's journal even says something about her "crawling inside my head" or similar (although I can't remember the exact wording so I could be wrong).  She does have the "Dominate" power in game, which shows she's quite capable of forced mind control (and that's the main reason to take her along, Shepard is more than capable of being charismatic and leading people).

Morinth is sexually attractive people are going to be attracted to her.  At the nightclub you don't see hordes of people vying for attention.
Nef was falling in love with Morinth.  It haapens in human relationships also, some people aare obsessesd at times

Dominate was included for gameplay purposes.

.
Shepard can easily see Samara in action prior to her loyalty mission so there's no reason to doubt her ability (infact your introduction shows her to be fairly strong).  The only experience Shepard has of Morinth's powers is them not working.  If you assume that the victims Morinth has had in the past were just drawn in by her charisma then there's no evidence that she's ever successfully mind controlled anyone since she might have just tricked them into doing something which seemed perfectly natural (the Asari keep Ardat-Yakshi a secret so it's very unlikely that any of her victims even knew about them let alone knew that she was one).

Have I ever doubted Samara's ability?
Samara took down those Eclipse grunts by herself, yet she needs your help to break the stalemate.
Morinth has a very persuasive personailty she's very seductful.  Humans do the same thing also.

The point is that Morinth isn't bothered about the suicide mission (infact it seems unrealistic that she goes along with the mission considering how much of a risk it is to her, perhaps she thinks that Shepard is a valuable enough "prize" to take the risk) and is willing to put it at risk to get what she wants if you give her the chance, while Samara is willing to swear an oath and put the goal that has been the focus of her life for some 400 years aside because she considers the mission worthwhile enough (you don't have to do her loyalty mission, she just asks you to).

A favor for a favor.
Morinth has a personal motivation to make sure that you succeed.  Just like Liara had a personal motivation to save you from the Collectors.

There's plenty of non-metagame evidence that Samara can be trusted to at least finish the mission such as information on her and her code from other characters.  Infact, it's probable that Shepard would have access to more information than the player does.  Plus you get an opportunity to get to know her and see her abilities and there's nothing that suggests she wont stick with you to the end in your dealings with her.  You barely meet Morinth before making the choice and your only experiences so far show that she is definately a cold-hearted killer, there's really nothing to suggest she's anything but dangerous.  At least with Samara you have a dossier, with Morinth all you get is the word of an untrustworthy and manipulative murderer.

Samara is just a gun for hire.  Nobody outside of Justicars know the Justicar code.

You barely meet Samara before you recruit her.
Samara has a non-biased dossier given to you by Unethical Cerberus, while Samara gives you a biased dossier about Morinth.

Samara is also a cold-hearted killer.

I can't blame you for not liking Samara, on a Renegade playthrough her threat to kill me seemed totally irrational given that I hadn't done anything beyond what she'd do (there's no guarantee that you're evil just because you're a Renegade).  Her code is very rigid and that makes it tough to get past (unless you really like the idea of the code).  She seems like a decent enough person behind the code but she's almost hiding behind it to avoid having to make any decisions and risk being "wrong".  Even Paragons have reasons to dislike her since she tends towards Renegade actions (she even says she'd kill innocents if her code tells her to).

Main reason I don't like Samara is the depth of the Justicar code and she's the only one that knows it. 
Don't judge me Samara I'm trying to save the Galaxy

I think Morinth is an interesting character with a lot of potential (not that I don't like Samara as a character), it's just that the in-game presentation is terrible and requires Shepard to make some silly decisions that fly in the face of all sense and available information in order to recruit her.  Someone suggested in another thread that it might have been better to meet Morinth first and Samara later and I could certainly see that working a lot better (although it could easily end up reversing the situation and making Samara difficult to recruit).  A kill both option would also be a nice addition (Jack has the biotic power covered anyway, not that she's stable either).

I wished Morinth had more dialogue

Morinth could've been a Cerberus agent you  recruit on Omega who's loyalty mission is to kill her mother who's a religous fanatic and hunting Morinth. You take Morinth to Illium, and you try to find Samara who's assaulting the Eclipse Base looking for information on the AML Demeter.

I just don't think she's presented as having enough power more than Samara to make that worthwhile and you're basically recruiting a dangerous murderer (one that wants to kill you and would have done a moment ago if she could have) on little more than her word.  I can understand wanting to get rid of Samara but recruiting Morinth just doesn't make any sense at all in-game (unless you're just playing an evil and destructive Shepard).

Shepard takes a risk everyone they recruit, you don't know just how powerful a squaddie is unless you bring them in your squad or see them first-hand.

[NICKjnp]

yorkj86 wrote...

NICKjnp wrote...

It isn't known if it takes two Asari to make an Ardat-Yakshi OR if it only takes a carrier plus another mate (Asari or non-Asari). The problem with Asari genetics is that the mother doesn't take any genetics from the "father". Morinth's father could have been a Volus for all we know.

Asari genetics, how do they work?  No, seriously, it changes from game to game.

Which came first?  The chicken or the Ardat-Yakshi?

[Smeelia]

jbblue05 wrote...

Samara has killed for 700+ years and evrybody on your squad has done a lot of killing.
Samara could've left the village alone but Samara chose to attack it.  
So Samara can do something evil, but if shes does something nice later on its OK

Morinth was trying to escape , she wants to live, she knows their is a 50/50 chance she might win or lose.

I suppose I should have clarified more.  Morinth's killings were entirely evil, cruel and for her own pleasure and killing isn't the worst thing she's done.  The village of people were sacrificing people so I can't really blame her for stopping them (even if she does resort to killing a little quickly because of her code).

Samara isn't nice and she's probably not even good but Morinth is definately evil (she could easily abstain from killing people while still being on the run).  You could kill Samara for her evil deeds (as you see it) but that would be doing exactly what she does to others (and you still wouldn't be choosing Morinth).

jbblue05 wrote...

Morinth is sexually attractive people are going to be attracted to her.  At the nightclub you don't see hordes of people vying for attention.
Nef was falling in love with Morinth.  It haapens in human relationships also, some people aare obsessesd at times

Dominate was included for gameplay purposes.

If her mind control is in gameplay only then she doesn't have any more power than Samara, that was my point (you only want them for their biotics after all).  I think she is supposed to have some element of mind control though, there are plenty of things that suggest this.

jbblue05 wrote...

A favor for a favor.
Morinth has a personal motivation to make sure that you succeed.  Just like Liara had a personal motivation to save you from the Collectors.

You can't trust Morinth though, particularly not based on what you know about her (that she manipulates, is selfish and enjoys hunting and killing, it doesn't help that you're probably her next prey even if you recruit her).

jbblue05 wrote...

Samara is just a gun for hire.  Nobody outside of Justicars know the Justicar code.

You barely meet Samara before you recruit her.
Samara has a non-biased dossier given to you by Unethical Cerberus, while Samara gives you a biased dossier about Morinth.

Samara is also a cold-hearted killer.

At least she's a cold-hearted killer that is sworn to do whatever you say.  It's not actually said anywhere that people outside of the Justicars don't know the code (as far as I know), although it's true that most people might have a romanticised idea of it.

I'm not saying that Samara is definately a good squad mate (as I said, I wouldn't mind a "kill both" option), my point is that there's no strong justification for recruiting Morinth in-character and especially not before the loyalty mission.  It's more that the whole thing was presented badly rather than that there could never be a good choice.

[Siansonea]

Ya know, some people see shades of grey in a Dürer engraving, but when it comes right down to it, it's all black and white. Same goes for Samara and Morinth. All the lawyering walls of text notwithstanding, every asari you meet will tell you that Morinth Is Bad, Mmmmkay? And they will all bow and scrape to Samara, unless they're Eclipse. Even Aria doesn't try to actively disrespect Samara. So, unless you want to take a "my-subjective-point-of-view-IS-reality" standpoint, then you have to conclude that the asari know more about ardat-yakshi and Justicars than you do.

If you want to play a rogue Shepard, save Morinth. No one can stop you. But don't try to rearrange the letters to make it seem like saving Morinth is anything but completely out of character for a Paragon Shepard. There is NOTHING remotely heroic about killing a revered asari to save an avowed serial murderer.

That said, my nutjob psycho b¡tch Soldier, Ashley Shepard, saved Morinth. I think Morinth is a great character. But she's irredeemable, and only a Shepard who is herself irredeemable can realistically justify saving Morinth.

[jbblue05]

Personal preference conversation is going in circles

[JG The Gamer]

Samara is what, nearly 1000 years old? Morinth is about 440. Samara has had centuries to hone her biotics as a merc before she had children. She had another 400 years of justicar work which boosted her biotic powers even further.

Morinth on the other hand has only had about 400 years to hone her power which unfortunately came through snu-snuing hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocents.

And when they finally clashed, they were tied in power requiring Shepard to break the tie.

If you're a complete jerk as some have said, you pick Morinth who I believe has potential to surpass her mother. Otherwise you pick Samara.

Out of my 10 playthroughs, I saved Morinth twice and she died on the suicide mission in one of them. Both Shepards in that case were Renegades.

That said, both of them plan to kill you once all is said and done. Samara though will only intend to kill you if you're a Renegade. If you were a Paragon, Samara says that if you ever need her in the future, she will come and aid you.

Morinth on the other hand, wants to snu-snu you regardless of your alignment once all is said and done.

So I say that while Morinth is the more powerful one, she is also the one Shepard really has to fear above all else.

[Orcvader]

Siansonea II wrote...

Ya know, some people see shades of grey in a Dürer engraving, but when it comes right down to it, it's all black and white. Same goes for Samara and Morinth. All the lawyering walls of text notwithstanding, every asari you meet will tell you that Morinth Is Bad, Mmmmkay? And they will all bow and scrape to Samara, unless they're Eclipse. Even Aria doesn't try to actively disrespect Samara. So, unless you want to take a "my-subjective-point-of-view-IS-reality" standpoint, then you have to conclude that the asari know more about ardat-yakshi and Justicars than you do.

If you want to play a rogue Shepard, save Morinth. No one can stop you. But don't try to rearrange the letters to make it seem like saving Morinth is anything but completely out of character for a Paragon Shepard. There is NOTHING remotely heroic about killing a revered asari to save an avowed serial murderer.

That said, my nutjob psycho b¡tch Soldier, Ashley Shepard, saved Morinth. I think Morinth is a great character. But she's irredeemable, and only a Shepard who is herself irredeemable can realistically justify saving Morinth.

Except for the "when it comes down to it everything is black or white" portion... I agree with everything else.

Well said.

[Smeelia]

JG The Gamer wrote...

So I say that while Morinth is the more powerful one, she is also the one Shepard really has to fear above all else.

Well, Shepard already resisted her mind control and is pretty deadly so I'm not really sure Morinth is a particularly big threat (at least if you don't give her an opportunity).  I tend to think that you could take either of them down yourself, that's why my Renegades mostly choose Samara (since she's sworn to loyalty and can be eliminated after the mission is over, while Morinth isn't as reliably loyal but could be similarly eliminated).

Siansonea II wrote...

If you want to play a rogue Shepard, save Morinth. No one can stop you. But don't try to rearrange the letters to make it seem like saving Morinth is anything but completely out of character for a Paragon Shepard. There is NOTHING remotely heroic about killing a revered asari to save an avowed serial murderer.

You could perhaps justify killing Samara as a Paragon Shepard but probably not based on anything in the game (if you saw her killing/threatening people you saw as innocent or if she threatened your crew, for example).  If she actually tried to kill the Illium police officer then you could be justified in killing Samara to prevent it but that can't happen in the game.  Still, none of that justifies killing Samara for Morinth.

It'd be interesting if they were offered as separate recruits, hiring Morinth wouldn't be too different to hiring Jack (maybe a little but it's debatable at least) but the real problem is having to kill Samara to do it.  It just doesn't make any sense to do that, even for a Renegade Shepard.  Theoretically you could order Samara not to kill Morinth under the terms of her oath, that'd be fun and would make for an interesting story (it could also be a better option for the team, why have one super biotic when you can have two?).  If you take both then they probably wouldn't be loyal (and it'd be tough to explain Morinth sticking with you but then that's a little odd anyway) but if you're taking both you're probably either planning to reconcile them as a Paragon (which might make them loyal) or don't really care if they survive as a Renegade.

[I will kill you both]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

omgodzilla wrote...

Then I hope that your squad finds out about it in ME3. I wanna see what their reaction to it would be.

Kelly would die instantly.
You know what she's like.

You can kill her off then...just take your time and then she will be liquified AND everybody wins?