183 réponses à ce sujet

[sycophantichallenger]

Allow me to lead off with an apology. I've been guilty of some pretty aggressive trolling on this board in the past. I do not feel this is because I am a "bad person" or "just a troll" however. Following a recent moment of lucidity I realized that my past trolling was due to an inability to reconcile the changes the sequel to one of my favorite titles with the expectations I had for it. Video games are my escape from a hugely stressfull line of work. I am passionate about them on a level that many people are not. During this moment of clarity it occured to me I should put pen to paper and submit them to the digital ether for deconstruction and criticism by the nameless faceless horde. (yes, I am self aggrandizing for comical effect). Here are my thoughts.

Taking the following points as being true (from my position as they are my personal point of view):

 - The changes to the dialogue system have effectively killed RP in the game for me.
 - The poor/childish visual "redesign" have effectively killed immersion for me.
 - The "push a button and something awesome happens" design philosophy has ruined the appeal of the gameplay.

These are all contributing factors to my current state of dissatisfaction with what this IP has become and I feel a sense of betrayal from the games developers considering that the previous title (DAO) was marketed and sold as a true to roots BIOWARE RPG game. In less than 1 year the have done a complete 180 on many of the fronts that were CRITICAL in causing the first game to be the success that it was They created a game to appeal to an existing fanbase based on the front that it was a "return" to type of experience they had previously.

DAO for what it was, was a huge success. DAO surpassed sales expectations both in sales of copies and sale of DLC by a significant margin. Realizing they have a successfull title on their hands with which the had managed to bridge a gap between "old school RPG nerds" (me) and a younger market of gamers (ie: ppl who appreciate "the new ****" TM), EA GAMES (ie: the money) has decided they would like to make significantly more money on the sequel. This is to be expected of any responsible publicly traded corporation as they exist to make money for their shareholders.

So out come the marketers and their marketing terms. DA2 is going to be a "visually super-hot" experience where you "push a button and something awesome happens". It is a new "cinematic" experience (ie: dialogue wheel, ie: passive experience you watch rather than deciding a course or truly effecting an outcome). These were not empty marketing slogans, but descriptors of things that had changed from the previous title. I would argue that they significantly changed the way the game looks (visual re-design), plays (awesome button), and is experienced (dialogue system), changing core aspects of the game. Some story connections and shared nomenclature between the previous title and the new title does not a sequel make...

So now I am faced with the choice of accepting what is a different and for me, unappealing experience or leaving it behind. Now here is where I get hung up. Because there was a perceived promise of purity of experience that DAO
made to it's "old school fan base". The 180 turnaround on the sequal felt like a slap in the face, a betrayal. Rather than simply moving on to something else as I would if I came accross a website or commercial marketing the SIMS or BULLETSTORM I felt personally slighted. Granted, this was an emotional conflageration rather than a jusified view based on any true or accurate attempt by bioware or EA to give me the finger.

So here is where it stands; DA2 is not created for or marketed to myself or those like me (passionate DAO, Baldur's Gate, classic RPG fans). I have always enjoyed BIOWARE games in the past, based in part on the quality of the story.

Will i play DA2? Yes... I would like to experience the story... I will wait a couple of months and purchase a used copy of the game from EBGAMES. This is a conscious choice to vote with my dollars against these changes as I realize that I can effect no change through intelligent conversation or suggestion since this is not a feedback mechanism that exists in a corporate world (money talks, bull**** walks). I would encourage others who share this viewpoint to do the same... vote with your dollars.

If internal BIOWARE or EA eyes do happen across this forum post, could you please pass it up the chain that IT IS NOT FISCALLY RESPONSIBLE TO ALIENATE YOUR EXISTING FAN BASE IN THE PERSUIT OF A PERCEIVED NEW MARKET. If you see that new market and would like to appeal to it, create a new product... a new IP. Don't missapropriate existing IP to fit a new mold...

Oh... and that recent "interview" of David Silverman by a drunk "yes man" at a convention comes off as being callous and hostile towards the existing DAO fanbase that share my view. Please explain that words can be emotionally violent.

***I'm glad that you've taken the opportunity to read these thoughts and hope to further disuss. Will I be shouted down by the mental mob? Probably? Will some people pick a small part of my post and pick it apart or point
out flawed or inconsistent logic in a rude or dismissive manner? Certainly. That is okay, I realize the social environment of the Bioware forums is not condusive to open debate, it's more of a walled garden of opinion. But one must do what one can right? ***

Modifié par sycophantichallenger, 27 février 2011 - 06:52 .

[WuWeiWu]

yogolol wrote...

sycophantichallenger wrote...


Taking the following points as being true (from my position as they are my personal point of view):

- The changes to the dialogue system have effectively killed RP in the game for me.
- The poor/childish visual "redesign" have effectively killed immersion for me.
- The "push a button and something awesome happens" design philosophy has ruined the appeal of the gameplay.

I stopped reading after this.

As did I; stating opinions as true for the purposes of a discussion generally involves a great deal of back and forth before said opinions can be agreed as true so that the conversation may proceed accordingly. In that back and forth, said opinions generally change and evolve so that they are at least agreeable with all (or, considering the forum, most) participants of the discussion.

It didn't help that your opinions are wildly biased to the point of irrationality - to clarify: opinions are biased, your opinions are biased and pointed well beyond rational means. No sane or fruitful discussion will come from such sophomoric premises.

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 27 février 2011 - 06:13 .

[AkiKishi]

I agree with most of that. One thing EA may be overlooking is DA sold because it tapped an ignored market of "oldschool nerds" and by changing it, it's just in direct competition with everything else.

Problem is, if you buy and play the game anyway EA have very little reason to change. If however DA2 were to bomb, you would see frantic scrabling and changes more in line with the original design.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 27 février 2011 - 06:17 .

[VanDraegon]

Frankly, i wouldnt expect any better responses than those you have graced the forum with in the past.

That being said, I preferred the style and game play of DA:O to what i have seen of DA2. I dont think your conclusions are correct however. In the end, all we can do is decide whether or not we want to play the game Bioware has made. I like RPGs above all other types of games. I like Bioware RPGs above all other devs's RPGs. Since we dont have any other choice in the matter, i am going to play the game and i am certain i will enjoy it because i really like the setting they have created. Still i would prefer a game more like DA:O but i will take what i can get because i dont have the skills or resources to make one myself.

[Siven80]

Seemed more of an anti-EA/marketing rant to me rather than an opinion on the actual gameplay.

Sure i dont like all the changes but i can learn to adapt to changes rather than be stuck in the past, and if the changes work or not...well the devs will learn either way.

[sycophantichallenger]

WuWeiWu wrote...

yogolol wrote...

sycophantichallenger wrote...


Taking the following points as being true (from my position as they are my personal point of view):

- The changes to the dialogue system have effectively killed RP in the game for me.
- The poor/childish visual "redesign" have effectively killed immersion for me.
- The "push a button and something awesome happens" design philosophy has ruined the appeal of the gameplay.

I stopped reading after this.

As did I; stating opinions as true for the purposes of a discussion generally involves a great deal of back and forth before said opinions can be agreed as true so that the conversation may proceed accordingly. In that back and forth, said opinions generally change and evolve so that they are at least agreeable with all (or, considering the forum, most) participants of the discussion.

It didn't help that your opinions are wildly biased to the point of irrationality - to clarify: opinions are biased, your opinions are biased and pointed well beyond rational means. No sane or fruitful discussion will come from such sophomoric premises.

This is MY considered opinion. You can choose not to discuss if you like, but posting to state that you choose not  to discuss is a bit of a waste of time don't you think? Opinion is thrown around the room all day and night here with nary an attempt to justify it. 

All that we have is opinion. "No sane or fruitful discussion will come from such sophomoric premises." is an  opinion of yours.

Modifié par sycophantichallenger, 27 février 2011 - 06:20 .

[WuWeiWu]

VanDraegon wrote...

...I disagree...conclusions incorrect...

His conclusions cannot be incorrect in this discussion, merely different from yours. Having said that, the only way to argue against or around the OP's line of reason is to debate with him/her the qualities of an 'old school RPG' and the intellectual or emotional investment he/she has to those qualities, and then why those qualities still exist in Dragon Age 2 - if in somewhat of an evolved and cultured form.

sycophantichallenger wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

yogolol wrote...

sycophantichallenger wrote...


Taking the following points as being true (from my position as they are my personal point of view):

- The changes to the dialogue system have effectively killed RP in the game for me.
- The poor/childish visual "redesign" have effectively killed immersion for me.
- The "push a button and something awesome happens" design philosophy has ruined the appeal of the gameplay.

I stopped reading after this.

As
did I; stating opinions as true for the purposes of a discussion
generally involves a great deal of back and forth before said opinions
can be agreed as true so that the conversation may proceed accordingly.
In that back and forth, said opinions generally change and evolve so
that they are at least agreeable with all (or, considering the forum,
most) participants of the discussion.

It didn't help that your
opinions are wildly biased to the point of irrationality - to clarify:
opinions are biased, your opinions are biased and pointed well beyond
rational means. No sane or fruitful discussion will come from such
sophomoric premises.

This is MY considered opinion.
You can choose not to discuss if you like, but posting to state that
you choose not  to discuss is a bit of a waste of time don't you think?
Opinion is thrown around the room all day and night here with nary an
attempt to justify it. 

All that we have is opinion. "No sane or fruitful discussion will come from such sophomoric premises." is an  opinion of yours.

There is a difference between a logical conclusion, an opinion, and a reasonable premise for
discussion. Then, there is sophomoric behavior; you went with the sophomoric
behavior. I would love to discuss this with you, but there is at the moment nothing to be gained by anyone arguing against or around your 'facts': if you're looking for yes-men, you made the right post. 

Edit the OP so that it engenders discussion, not so that it grabs it by the balls and holds it hostage.

Modifié par WuWeiWu, 27 février 2011 - 09:43 .

[XBenotto18]

Some of your points, your saying are true? No opinion is true as a fact because its your opinion and others will differ from yours.

Modifié par XBenotto18, 27 février 2011 - 06:21 .

[AlexJK]

sycophantichallenger wrote...

This is MY considered opinion. You can choose
not to discuss if you like, but posting to state that you choose not to
discuss is a bit of a waste of time don't you think?

By that logic, so is posting with a list of complaints which you know full well Bioware won't change as the game is due out in less than 2 weeks. Just sayin.

[AkiKishi]

AlexJK wrote...

By that logic, so is posting with a list of complaints which you know full well Bioware won't change as the game is due out in less than 2 weeks. Just sayin.

I have very little sympathy for people who claim to hate the game that much but will still play it.

[DTKT]

After argumenting back and forth for a few threads, I just feel like there is very little point is even writing some kind of text to discuss DAII.
Both camp of "The game is good", "The game is bad" will never change their position.

I mean, what's the point if there's no discussion but everyone stating their opinion as the single truth. It always descend into a flame-fest and poop throwing contest.

Modifié par DTKT, 27 février 2011 - 06:26 .

[WuWeiWu]

XBenotto18 wrote...

Some of your points, your saying are true? No opinion is true as a fact because its your opinion and others will differ from yours.

He was asking that, for the purposes of this conversation and his posts, to assume his opinions as true. Which is a fair thing to ask, if he hadn't gone about it all wrong.

[Marionetten]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I agree with most of that. One thing EA may be overlooking is DA sold because it tapped an ignored market of "oldschool nerds" and by changing it, it's just in direct competition with everything else.

Problem is, if you buy and play the game anyway EA have very little reason to change. If however DA2 were to bomb, you would see frantic scrabling and changes more in line with the original design.

You give the suits far too much credit here. More likely it would result in further streamlining of the franchise. Remember, they want Call of Duty's audience.

[DTKT]

Marionetten wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I agree with most of that. One thing EA may be overlooking is DA sold because it tapped an ignored market of "oldschool nerds" and by changing it, it's just in direct competition with everything else.

Problem is, if you buy and play the game anyway EA have very little reason to change. If however DA2 were to bomb, you would see frantic scrabling and changes more in line with the original design.

You give the suits far too much credit here. More likely it would result in further streamlining of the franchise. Remember, they want Call of Duty's audience.

From Ubisoft to EA, to the smallest indie dev, they all want the COD audience. Not because they are a specific type of player, it's because there is 15 million of them. When a dev says: "We want the Call of Duty audience", it doesnt mean that every game they make is going to be dumbed down. It might mean that the marketing campaign might be geared towards them.

Keep in mind that they dont need to win the "gamer" over. You already read coverage on the game, you read the reviews, you are a member of the "insert game name" forum.

[AkiKishi]

Marionetten wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

I agree with most of that. One thing EA may be overlooking is DA sold because it tapped an ignored market of "oldschool nerds" and by changing it, it's just in direct competition with everything else.

Problem is, if you buy and play the game anyway EA have very little reason to change. If however DA2 were to bomb, you would see frantic scrabling and changes more in line with the original design.

You give the suits far too much credit here. More likely it would result in further streamlining of the franchise. Remember, they want Call of Duty's audience.

This one will take a while to wrap my head around... I'm a very eclectic gamer but I can't see an immediate connection.

[sycophantichallenger]

WuWeiWu wrote...

XBenotto18 wrote...

Some of your points, your saying are true? No opinion is true as a fact because its your opinion and others will differ from yours.

He was asking that, for the purposes of this conversation and his posts, to assume his opinions as true. Which is a fair thing to ask, if he hadn't gone about it all wrong.

Can you accept that I am no longer interested in discussing whether the changes made between DA2 and DAO are "good" or "bad"? That I am not interested in having this thread devolve into the same conversation that occurs in EVERY thread? 

This is why my argument requires that this is accepted as true. Because I"m not interested in debating this point AGAIN!

If you do not wish to discuss, don't. Please don't sidetrack my thread.

Modifié par sycophantichallenger, 27 février 2011 - 06:36 .

[VanDraegon]

BTW, what is this drunken interview you mention? Link?

[XBenotto18]

Autolycus wrote...

Same with BobSmith....plus you registered a new account today just to **** and whine.....

impressive....

This happens a lot now. If you check his activities he signed up not to long ago just to whine about a game thats gone gold. Probably trying to change peoples minds to not buy the game which is a fat chance

Some points that he made are fiar though.

Modifié par XBenotto18, 27 février 2011 - 06:34 .

[Panpsychist]

Well written and reasoned.

Just some observations:

"The changes to the dialogue system have effectively killed RP in the game for me".

I am more interested in the story, and Bioware has never failed us in this regard.

While the changes suggested in the demo do not allow you to play you, they still allow for the writers to develop a character even if, unfortunately, it is the one you are playing. If Bioware does as good a job as they did on Sten on DA:O, this may make up for the loss of the RP element. Of course this observation assumes that it was not the intent of Bioware to eliminate the RP element, an assumption the demo belies.

- The poor/childish visual "redesign" have effectively killed immersion for me.

The visual design I can get over (because I find that I usually begin to ignore it over time). I recognize that the more artistically sensitive may have a continuing problem. The childish animations kill immersion for anyone that wants to play themselves rather than supermario.

- The "push a button and something awesome happens" design philosophy has ruined the appeal of the gameplay.

I agree. However a mod or patch that reduced the speed of the animations would go a long way toward improving the gameplay for those that don't have ADD.

Modifié par Panpsychist, 27 février 2011 - 06:39 .

[Marionetten]

DTKT wrote...

Keep in mind that they dont need to win the "gamer" over. You already read coverage on the game, you read the reviews, you are a member of the "insert game name" forum.

True. But not keeping the gamer satisfied will result in said gamer eventually getting fed up. This is something which both BioWare and EA have conveniently overlooked with their marketing. When you have David Silverman badmouthing Dragon Age: Origins and its audience during an interview you have to wonder what they're trying to accomplish. Whatever it is it's certainly not pretty.

[AkiKishi]

DTKT wrote...
From Ubisoft to EA, to the smallest indie dev, they all want the COD audience. Not because they are a specific type of player, it's because there is 15 million of them. When a dev says: "We want the Call of Duty audience", it doesnt mean that every game they make is going to be dumbed down. It might mean that the marketing campaign might be geared towards them.

Keep in mind that they dont need to win the "gamer" over. You already read coverage on the game, you read the reviews, you are a member of the "insert game name" forum.

I don't know what the online/offline split is for COD but most of the COD players I know, or know of could not give a crap about the SP campaign. They are in it purely for the head to head stuff.

[WuWeiWu]

sycophantichallenger wrote...

WuWeiWu wrote...

XBenotto18 wrote...

Some of your points, your saying are true? No opinion is true as a fact because its your opinion and others will differ from yours.

He was asking that, for the purposes of this conversation and his posts, to assume his opinions as true. Which is a fair thing to ask, if he hadn't gone about it all wrong.

Can you accept that I am no longer interested in discussing whether the changes made between DA2 and DAO are "good" or "bad"? That I am not interested in having this thread devolve into the same conversation that occurs in EVERY thread? 

This is why my argument requires that this is accepted as true. Because I"m not interested in debating this point AGAIN!

But that is what your OP is asking me, someone who differs with your opinion, to do. There's a bit more involved with having something 'just accepted as fact' in any form of conversation, you can't shove it in my face and expect me to be fine with it. If you want a conversation, fix the OP; if you want nothing but yes-men to argue with you, leave it as is and I'll leave this thread.

Of course, I would point out first how you called BioWare out on their 'yes-men' and how much lulz are to be had by you turning around and doing the same thing.

[John Epler]

Folks, let me remind you that if you don't agree with a poster, you can disagree politely and civilly.

At the same time, of course, if you make a topic, expect to be disagreed with. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and you don't get to direct the conversation simply because you made the first post.

Leaving this open for now, but let's try to have a discussion here.