127 réponses à ce sujet

[hannibalizer0]

Braid is another perfect example of a game with ART. For those who have not played it is definitely worth it

[Nebuyl]

They might not have been fundamental parts of game, say, decades ago, but standards have changed. Nowadays, a game has to have most, if not all of those things you have mentioned within the game for it to be considered a game.

[jeweledleah]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

just a quick question - you say paintings have a stricter definition. really? technically throwing cans of paint at random velocity at a piece of canvas results in in a painting. but is it art? you decide.

You said it all right here. A painting needs paint.

A video game needs game.

What is game? In Mass Effect 2, what is the game part of it? I'll tell you what it isn't first.

It is not the story.

It is not the characters.

It is not the graphics.

It is not the music.

What it is however, is your control over the character. When you are moving Shepard, choosing which dialog options, or otherwise using your controller, that is the game part.

So for Mass Effect 2 to be art in an equivalent way to a painting it needs to be judged on the basis of the control, of the "gameplay".

Does controlling your avatar, moving the cursor to highlight a dialog option, squeezing the trigger, pushing the control stick, and/or holding the control feel like art to you? Do those things specifically generate emotional reactions in you?

I really doubt it.

What gets you emotionally involved in Mass Effect is the sounds and sights, the people, the story being told. However as I explained those things are not fundamental parts of the game.

umm...actualy - the game is a sum of its parts.  you cannot boil down a game to its controls alone and call it a day, you really cannot, becasue gameplay is only a small aspect of what constitutes a game - painting equivalent  is probably a brush.  and while your choice of a brush when creating a painting can certainly be important as it affects how the paint looks on the canvas, what makes an aplication of paint onto some sort of surface into art is the sum of its parts - the choice of colors, the placement of the pain, the saturation, the texture, the subject matter and the emotion it does or does not invoke. 

a game is sum of its parts, it doesn't exist in a vaccum of button clicks.

edited to add - moves you concider art, yes?  but which part exactly is art?  is it principal photography?  but its a separate artform, yes?  is it the writing, the story?  again - separate part.  lightning?  direction?  acting?  what exactly makes a movie into an artform?  the sum of its parts coming together into a cohesive whole.  just like a video game

Modifié par jeweledleah, 28 février 2011 - 01:39 .

[Nebuyl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Market forces. That has no bearing on whether it is art or not.

Don't market forces effect the standards of other art meduims as well? Beautiful pictures were considered art, not anymore. It's about the abstract art these days.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The writing doesn't require the player.
The graphics don't require the player.
The music doesn't require the player.
The voice acting doesn't require the player.

But each of those things change based on what the player does.

Hence, it's art that the player helps create.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No, market forces are about profit and nothing else. Films made purely for profit are generally quite lacking in artistic worth. Obviously films made for a profit can still be excellent works of art, but that is not the goal behind them (for the people financing it anyway).

The Naked Gun was created to make a profit. Can it be art as a film? Certainly. If we took a look at how the film was shot we could judge it purely on those merits to determine whether or not it was art. Nothing else would really matter.

This is one of the reasons 2001: A Space Oddyssey is considered one of the pinnacles of film as an art. It is the way the movie is filmed. The actually story-telling isn't that great. Most of the film is just shots of spacecraft and landscape. However the way those shots and the special effects are pulled off is what is impressive.

I want to slap you for everything you just said.

You're one of those people, aren't you?

[jeweledleah]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

umm...actualy - the game is a sum of its parts.

The product is the sum of its parts, but the game part is exactly what I described to you. It is the things that require player input.

The writing doesn't require the player.
The graphics don't require the player.
The music doesn't require the player.
The voice acting doesn't require the player.

so basicaly what you're saying is that the games aren't art because they are interactive? I think you are confusing artists with people who apreciate their work.
paintings and sculptures (and with sculptures you actualy need to move around to apreciate the full scope, them being 3d and all)  require an observer to apreciate them.  so do movies.  stories hidden away in books need to be read to be apreciated.

the only difference between a game and a movie is that you have just a bit more imput into how it progresses.  with movies, all you have are pause and rewind buttons.

This is one of the reasons 2001: A Space Oddyssey
is considered one of the pinnacles of film as an art. It is the way the
movie is filmed. The actually story-telling isn't that great. Most of
the film is just shots of spacecraft and landscape. However the way those shots and the special effects are pulled off is what is impressive 

why do these parameters work when determining if the film is art, while they cannot work the same way fro a game?  what's with a double standard?

Modifié par jeweledleah, 28 février 2011 - 01:49 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

So is a seesaw art?

When I sit on one end the other end moves. According to you that is art.

It is if it's a finely-crafted seesaw. u_u

But you see, when I look at a painting, I can't change the color scheme.  When I watch a film, I can't change the actors.  No matter how many times I read a novel, I can't change the ending.

Video games let me do that.  That's a level of depth you don't get in many other places.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 28 février 2011 - 01:50 .

[Nebuyl]

Again with the picking and the choosing of what to reply to? Tsk, tsk.

The actually gameplay may or may not be great, but HOW you play is. Wouldn't the interactions YOU create in the game and the consequences YOU cause (by pushing buttons, no less) be impressive?

Modifié par Nebuyl, 28 février 2011 - 01:52 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

They have novels specifically geared towards that very thing.

So Goosebumps is art?

Keep in mind that these choose-your-own-ending novels peaked in popularity at about the same time as videogames began to mature as an entertainment medium.

[Nebuyl]

Picking and choosing what to reply to, double standard logic, seemingly on purpose taking a controvorsial opinion on the forums...

Obvious troll is obvious?

Modifié par Nebuyl, 28 février 2011 - 02:03 .

[The_Wonder_of_Thedas]

Not gonna lie, I was sweating bullets doing Garrus' loyalty mission, that is, at the end where you talk with Sidonis.

Modifié par The_Wonder_of_Thedas, 28 février 2011 - 01:58 .

[AdmiralCheez]

The_Wonder_of_Thedas wrote...

Not gonna lie, I was sweating bullets doing Garrus' loyalty mission, that is, at the end where you talk with Sidonis.

You too?  Sounds like you paragon'd it.  When you renegade, it's pretty much just "lol, owned."

Still a pretty intense mission.  The encounter with Harkin really had me worried for Garrus' mental health.  I would have given him a hug if I weren't worried about getting shot.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 28 février 2011 - 01:59 .

[Nebuyl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

So Goosebumps is art?

Certainly. Maybe not good art, but it's art. We can judge it so by how the story is told. We could even compare it to other choose your own adventure books by comparing the choices presented.

We can judge games the same way. Like whether one game controls better than another. The problem is in comparing that to anything else. Are really good controls comparable to music?

Can we compare chose your own adventure books to anything else? What about music to anything else? Movies?

Double standard.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

So Goosebumps is art?

Certainly. Maybe not good art, but it's art. We can judge it so by how the story is told. We could even compare it to other choose your own adventure books by comparing the choices presented.

We can judge games the same way. Like whether one game controls better than another. The problem is in comparing that to anything else. Are really good controls comparable to music?

I like how you said Goosebumps is art, but Naked Gun is not.

Good day, my good troll, good day!

[JamieCOTC]

art is art. Anyway, I found parts of ME2 to be very moving, while others to simply be a lot of fun. KOTOR still trumps it on the emo meter for me for a BioWare game. The most emotional game I have ever played was The Longest Journey.