127 réponses à ce sujet

[Heather Cline]

Jamie, Dreamfall The Longest Journey was an amazingly done game. Emotionally captivating and just moving. I wish they would make another one like it, or bring the original Dreamfall game to the 360 as it is an old PC game that could use with some updating.

[James2912]

Art's definition has been evolving for years as new mediums are developed and social and cultural lines are crossed film used to be looked down upon by art snobs who deemed it as just stupid entertainment for the masses now I sit here watching the Oscars on television. Saphra I'm telling you, you are on the wrong side of history here.

[hannibalizer0]

Heather Cline wrote...

Jamie, Dreamfall The Longest Journey was an amazingly done game. Emotionally captivating and just moving. I wish they would make another one like it, or bring the original Dreamfall game to the 360 as it is an old PC game that could use with some updating.

I forgot about that game, yet another perfect example of an emotionally captivating game. I am not sure if it was emotional as mass effect 2 but good choice. A remake would be great.

[Kaltrec]

Flower

[android654]

marshalleck wrote...

Lost Odyssey is a JRPG from the creator of Final Fantasy, and it has way more emotional depth than Mass Effect 2 (specifically due to the exceptionally beautifuly written "Thousand Years of Dreams" short stories written by Kiyoshi Shigematsu and interspersed throughout the game). Rage, BSN. Rage.

JRPG's are so removed for my own perception of the world, that I can't connect to them. I mean if anyone's played FF13, and can get past the slighty creepy amorous scenes with Snow and Sara in the beginning, it feels like its constantly on the edge of turning a corner to a major plot event but it doesn't. And with the exception of GITS --which is more political than anything-- most japanese fiction seems to be fawned over so much without having any differing substance from western fiction.

[marshalleck]

android654 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Lost Odyssey is a JRPG from the creator of Final Fantasy, and it has way more emotional depth than Mass Effect 2 (specifically due to the exceptionally beautifuly written "Thousand Years of Dreams" short stories written by Kiyoshi Shigematsu and interspersed throughout the game). Rage, BSN. Rage.

JRPG's are so removed for my own perception of the world, that I can't connect to them. I mean if anyone's played FF13, and can get past the slighty creepy amorous scenes with Snow and Sara in the beginning, it feels like its constantly on the edge of turning a corner to a major plot event but it doesn't. And with the exception of GITS --which is more political than anything-- most japanese fiction seems to be fawned over so much without having any differing substance from western fiction.

FF13 sucked a**, and I say this being generally open-minded to JRPGs

[android654]

marshalleck wrote...

android654 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Lost Odyssey is a JRPG from the creator of Final Fantasy, and it has way more emotional depth than Mass Effect 2 (specifically due to the exceptionally beautifuly written "Thousand Years of Dreams" short stories written by Kiyoshi Shigematsu and interspersed throughout the game). Rage, BSN. Rage.

JRPG's are so removed for my own perception of the world, that I can't connect to them. I mean if anyone's played FF13, and can get past the slighty creepy amorous scenes with Snow and Sara in the beginning, it feels like its constantly on the edge of turning a corner to a major plot event but it doesn't. And with the exception of GITS --which is more political than anything-- most japanese fiction seems to be fawned over so much without having any differing substance from western fiction.

FF13 sucked a**, and I say this being generally open-minded to JRPGs

I remeber 7 and 9 being fun when I was a kid, but i don't get the appeal for Japanese fiction. It's odd really, considering I have a strong fascination with feudal japanese society. I even considered being an Asian study major when I started college because Japanese history.

[Chuvvy]

I don't find Mass Effect that emotional. The main reason for that is probably because the main character can never show any real emotional depth. Happy and angry are there, nothing else really.

[thedistortedchild]

Both Dragon Age and Mass Effect are amazingly emotional, for me.

[marshalleck]

android654 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

android654 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Lost Odyssey is a JRPG from the creator of Final Fantasy, and it has way more emotional depth than Mass Effect 2 (specifically due to the exceptionally beautifuly written "Thousand Years of Dreams" short stories written by Kiyoshi Shigematsu and interspersed throughout the game). Rage, BSN. Rage.

JRPG's are so removed for my own perception of the world, that I can't connect to them. I mean if anyone's played FF13, and can get past the slighty creepy amorous scenes with Snow and Sara in the beginning, it feels like its constantly on the edge of turning a corner to a major plot event but it doesn't. And with the exception of GITS --which is more political than anything-- most japanese fiction seems to be fawned over so much without having any differing substance from western fiction.

FF13 sucked a**, and I say this being generally open-minded to JRPGs

I remeber 7 and 9 being fun when I was a kid, but i don't get the appeal for Japanese fiction. It's odd really, considering I have a strong fascination with feudal japanese society. I even considered being an Asian study major when I started college because Japanese history.

See this is what I was talking about earlier, the "Japanese" fiction. It's not like all fiction from Japan is the same. I am generally receptive to JRPGs--I'm okay with the predefined characters and set story. Those are aspects that tend to be present in JRPGs, but not necessarily a component of all. Lost Odyssey tells a wonderful story about a man who has lived for a thousand years. Through his inability to die, the player is able to explore the meaningful relationships between people in an objective light, and also the pointless depravity and ugliness of war. It's a brilliant story. 

But that's Lost Odyssey. That is not all JRPGs. FF13 had an awful story, shallow gameplay, and horrid level design. About the only thing it had going for it was nice graphics. My point is that individual games can be good or bad. That they are Japanese doesn't define the quality of the story they're telling, but they're often trashed around here simply for being JRPGs.

Modifié par marshalleck, 28 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[Icinix]

I don't really care much for the whole debate about 'are video games art..'

But I do wish some developers out there would stop trying to make games into ART for the sake of challenging that debate...and just focus on making damn good games.

[marshalleck]

Well I notice that Saphra Deden repeatedly ignored my multiple references to Braid's gameplay. I wonder if that's because they haven't played it, they disagree that the gameplay is art, or perhaps it does explode the argument that gameplay can't be art? If any gameplay can be considered art, I think that game should qualify. It's definitely a mind-opening experience, that gets you thinking in ways that are unconventional and not always easy. If that's not something "art" aspires to achieve, I don't know what it's for at all.

Modifié par marshalleck, 28 février 2011 - 05:10 .

[Iakus]

Saphra Deden wrote...
You said it all right here. A painting needs paint.

A video game needs game.

What is game? In Mass Effect 2, what is the game part of it? I'll tell you what it isn't first.

It is not the story.

It is not the characters.

It is not the graphics.

It is not the music.

What it is however, is your control over the character. When you are moving Shepard, choosing which dialog options, or otherwise using your controller, that is the game part.

So for Mass Effect 2 to be art in an equivalent way to a painting it needs to be judged on the basis of the control, of the "gameplay".

Does controlling your avatar, moving the cursor to highlight a dialog option, squeezing the trigger, pushing the control stick, and/or holding the control feel like art to you? Do those things specifically generate emotional reactions in you?

I really doubt it.

What gets you emotionally involved in Mass Effect is the sounds and sights, the people, the story being told. However as I explained those things are not fundamental parts of the game.

Hoever a film

Has a story

Has characters (in the form of actors)

Not necessarilly graphics, but it does have settings, props, costumes, etc

Usually has music

But what all forms of asrt typically have is an audience.  People who can appreciate it.  Books have readers, movies have audiences.  Paintings have viewers.  Same for television, plays, pictures, even cave paintings.  What games offer is audience participation.  The ability to affect how the game's story is told.   And this is done through gameplay. 

No, games haven't reached that point of being art, yet.  But someday, perhaps in the not too distant future.

[Village_Idiot]

Video games are a storytelling medium, just like a book or a TV show. However, the fact that games offer a form of escapism which is so interactive, so involving for a player, means that a well written plot isn't always the main selling point of a game.

This isn't necessarily a bad thing- games often don't need to be well written to entertain their target audience. Forza Motorsport for example offers an excellent driving experience with more cars than you can shake a stick at. Does it have a plot though? No. But would it benefit from one? No. The grand diversity of video game genres means they don't have to tell a story in order to entertain.

Mass Effect, as video games go is exceptionally well written- it needs to be since, in my opinion, the plot and characterisation present in the series are what make it a truly great game. The shooter element was mediocre (though well presented) in ME1, and although greatly improved in ME2, it's still pretty much a cookie-cutter cover based shooter. But I don't play it for that element- I play it because I want to see the continuing adventures of Shepard and Co.

The fact that Mass Effect presents itself like a blockbuster film, but places YOU as the protagonist, with YOU shaping the course of the plot is what makes it so emotionally engaging. When I thought Shep had died at the end of ME1, I genuinely felt some form of loss. No video game has ever done that for me, and to this day no others have either.

It's this ability to place the viewer as the protagonist that I believe makes the video-game story format superior to that of a movie, and hope that the industry takes note. With the right writers and presentation, the possibilities are endless.

[xboxlivegamer]

While I do agree with you I have to point out that video games are not art, but can be art. Saying video games in general are art would be implying that something like Madden 11 is art when it's pretty far from it. Same with movies, movies can be art, but something like Hall Pass is not.

[JediNg]

Vigil's revelation
Sovereign's defeat
Shepard surviving the aftermath of Sovereign's defeat and limping to his comrades (complete with smirk)
Watching the SSV Normandy get mercilessly attacked
The Alliance saving the council
The whole sequence when its revealed Joker is your pilot again, especially the Normandy SR2 reveal and fly-off sequence
Normandy SR-2 gets attacked by the Collector vessel
The suicide mission cutscenes from the start of the mission to the final escape.
to an extent lesser than those above, Mass Effect's intro

These are the most emotionally powerful moments in the series so far for me . In no particular order.

Modifié par JediNg, 28 février 2011 - 01:36 .

[Nodscouter]

Xbox, you have to remember that basically, well, EVERYTHING is art to someone. Because you don't like a game, or because 99% of the world's population does not like a game and does not consider it art, it's still art to some people.

Also, so far the best parts when it comes to emotional respone is, in order:
Normandy getting destroyed and me losing Garrus, Tali and Joker (Thank you Bioware for bringing them back)
Tali and Garrus romance scenes.
The suicide mission.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Nodscouter wrote...

Xbox, you have to remember that basically, well, EVERYTHING is art to someone. Because you don't like a game, or because 99% of the world's population does not like a game and does not consider it art, it's still art to some people.

Also, so far the best parts when it comes to emotional respone is, in order:
Normandy getting destroyed and me losing Garrus, Tali and Joker (Thank you Bioware for bringing them back)
Tali and Garrus romance scenes.
The suicide mission.

Are you sure Garrus' romance was that emotional?

[AdmiralCheez]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...
Are you sure Garrus' romance was that emotional?

If laughing my ass off counts as emotion, then yes.

Which is pretty much why he's my favorite LI.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Oh, in that case I definitely agree.

[CroGamer002]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...
Are you sure Garrus' romance was that emotional?

If laughing my ass off counts as emotion, then yes.

Which is pretty much why he's my favorite LI.

Same for Jacob.


Though from wrong reasons.

[jamesp81]

Yes, ME is very emotional. The only other game with as much depth was Dreamfall.

ME and ME2 are so well written that you care about the people under your command.

[AdmiralCheez]

jamesp81 wrote...

ME and ME2 are so well written that you care about the people under your command.

This, bolded for emphasis and wrapped with a pretty pink ribbon.

I have never cared so much about fictitious characters as I have with the ME series.  They are my crew.

[hannibalizer0]

I think the music greatly helps the game without the music I dont think the game would have the same effect.

[SnakeSNMF]

Mass Effect tries to add emotnal value to their characters and they did good, but to some people, they don't realize the entire effect of what Bioware did.
Why did their taste go to waste?
Well, because some of the characters are two-faced and only have one emotions or two emotions.
It's hard to make a good dramatic story just from the characters because they need to feel alive and real, and that means from happiness, to okay, to bad, to crying, to awesome. Like a real person.
It is hard to achieve, and Bioware only achieved it for a few of the characters in the storyline, but not all.