125 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

Walina wrote...

Well, if you played human noble, you will hate Duncan but as a mage it was a bit different since you don't have a choice : you can't return to the circle, so you've to become a grey warden to not die. It's about survival when you become a grey warden not because you choosed it.

I first played as a human noble and I never hated Duncan.
While there is a streak of opportunism in what he does, he is desperate for new recruits and he knows you are worthy.
However he is still honest about it, he doesn't lie to Bryce to make him feel better, he flat out states what he expects for helping you leave; he doesn't invoke the right of conscription unless you decide to be an ass about it, and he was perfectly willing to rescue Eleneor too but she had to be stubborn.

[Gvaz]

Jory was a crybaby **** who wanted to be in the wardens then backed out because he was afraid. Once you're in, you're in. There is no backing out.

[Kyrellic]

And as for the mage "you can't go back", that rather depends on how you dealt with your time in the Circle and Jowan's situation.

[Walina]

i played also human noble and I disliked Duncan when he didn't help to rescue your parents and left without them forcing you to leave by taking your arm.

@ Kyrellic : well in my opinion in both way, you aren't not welcome anymore in the tower because if you betray Jowan, Gregor is still agianst you and Irving just give you to Duncan like it was planned cause you're a sheep in the other hand (hte most logical for me) if you don't betray Jowan, you aren't anymore welcome in the circle.

I don't know if I prefer to have only Gregor agianst or both of them since if Duncan didn't showed up, my mage maybe will have been killed betraying or not Jowan. Templars just has that kind of authority >.>

Modifié par Walina, 15 novembre 2009 - 05:14 .

[The Angry One]

He did actually try to save Bryce before you get there, and neither of them were willing to go anyway.

[Ardeco]

The Angry One wrote...

He did actually try to save Bryce before you get there, and neither of them were willing to go anyway.

SPOILER: In the Human Noble origin, Duncan conspires with Howe to have your family murdered so your father will allow you to join the Wardens as a thanks for Duncan "saving" you.

[Maderas_]

Melchiz wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

He did actually try to save Bryce before you get there, and neither of them were willing to go anyway.

SPOILER: In the Human Noble origin, Duncan conspires with Howe to have your family murdered so your father will allow you to join the Wardens as a thanks for Duncan "saving" you.

What are you basing this off of? 

And Duncan explains it fairly well if you talk to him about it. Jory was told there was no going back when he agreed to become a Warden - and he DREW A SWORD on Duncan first. If he hadn't swung at him, who's to say how it would have ended?

[OfficerDonNZ]

Melchiz wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

He did actually try to save Bryce before you get there, and neither of them were willing to go anyway.

SPOILER: In the Human Noble origin, Duncan conspires with Howe to have your family murdered so your father will allow you to join the Wardens as a thanks for Duncan "saving" you.

Oh as if you'd beileve anything Howe tells you. Certainly it gives the appernace that Duncan may have had something to do with it depending on what you ask Ser Gilmore.

[Talian Kross]

He drew his sword and backed away.  It was without a doubt a defensive stance, as in, "Back away, you dogs! I'm leaving this place!"

Duncan--no question!--murdered him to the keep the secret of the Greys hidden from society.  How you all deny this or childishly keep calling the OP a troll is beyond me.

[The Angry One]

The dialog with Ser Gilmore is mere speculation as at that point you're all unaware as to Duncan's whereabouts.

Howe is a treacherous snake, taking anything he says at face value is laughable, it is also highly out of character for Duncan to ever collude with such treachery, he doesn't do so in any of the other origins, not to mention that despite Bryce complaints at the beginning, he is in fact willing for his child to become a Grey Warden if that's what they want.

[The Angry One]

Talian Kross wrote...

He drew his sword and backed away.  It was without a doubt a defensive stance, as in, "Back away, you dogs! I'm leaving this place!"

Duncan--no question!--murdered him to the keep the secret of the Greys hidden from society.  How you all deny this or childishly keep calling the OP a troll is beyond me.

Okay, so what? That he backed away doesn't change the fact that he drew steel first, and tried to back out of an arrangement where he was explicitly told that there was no turning back.

[Flamin Jesus]

Right of conscription, no need for conspiracies. It may backfire (politically), but far less so than allowing two armies to destroy each other and killing off a sympathetic noble family in the process.



Talian: Yes he did, so? And a thread title like "Evil murder required by this game!!!1!1111!!!oneeleven!!" is a blatant attempt at stirring up **** in the forum.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Talian Kross wrote...

He drew his sword and backed away.  It was without a doubt a defensive stance, as in, "Back away, you dogs! I'm leaving this place!"

Duncan--no question!--murdered him to the keep the secret of the Greys hidden from society.  How you all deny this or childishly keep calling the OP a troll is beyond me.

Yes question. Duncan did not murder anyone. How you keep claiming this nonsense is beyond me.

[Alynna_tp]

Seriously can you imagine what the general populace would think if they knew Grey Wardens drink darkspawn blood and become tainted? The distrust and outright hostility this would create would most likely destroy the whole order. Duncan did what he had to do. Jory drew a sword, out of fear or whatever you want to call it. As others have mentioned, its the same as drawing your gun, you mean to do violence in the near future.



I believe that either way Jory would not be allowed to live after knowing about the joining ritual.



I will however say one interesting thing, Leliana knows what the joining ritual involves (darkspawn blood) and she's obviously alive and well. I'd like to know the reasons for that myself.

[The Angry One]

Leliana's job is to know people's deepest, darkest secrets.

No doubt she got some Orlesian Grey Warden drunk and in bed and was informed of all. She's alive because she doesn't go around blabbing about it.

[Flamin Jesus]

Alynna_tp wrote...

I will however say one interesting thing, Leliana knows what the joining ritual involves (darkspawn blood) and she's obviously alive and well. I'd like to know the reasons for that myself.

Well, she's a bard, she's supposed to know more than other people, even with every precaution you can't completely cut off the flow of information over centuries...
Especially if all Joinings take place in front of a bonfire in the middle of a busy camp full of prying eyes like yours.

[Alynna_tp]

Flamin Jesus wrote...

Well, she's a bard, she's supposed to know more than other people, even with every precaution you can't completely cut off the flow of information over centuries...
Especially if all Joinings take place in front of a bonfire in the middle of a busy camp full of prying eyes like yours.

Hehe I thought of that too, "lets go to the old temple, no one can see through the ruin with no walls or anything."
But I guess I agree that Leliana doesn't really advertise the information she knows, and knowing her character after playing I am willing to believe she wouldn't ever reveal Grey Warden secrets.

[The Angry One]

It's not so much a secret that only Grey Wardens know of (the mages who helped would obviously know too) as it's a secret kept from the general populace.

Someone who demonstrated such a panicky nature as Jory is surely a liability, I'd bet the first thing he'd do is flee to Highever and tell his wife, who'd tell her friends, who'd tell the milkman, who'd tell the farmer, and then the entire nation knows that Grey Wardens drink darkspawn blood and maybe come to think they're as dangerous as darkspawn themselves.

[Alynna_tp]

The Angry One wrote...

It's not so much a secret that only Grey Wardens know of (the mages who helped would obviously know too) as it's a secret kept from the general populace.
Someone who demonstrated such a panicky nature as Jory is surely a liability, I'd bet the first thing he'd do is flee to Highever and tell his wife, who'd tell her friends, who'd tell the milkman, who'd tell the farmer, and then the entire nation knows that Grey Wardens drink darkspawn blood and maybe come to think they're as dangerous as darkspawn themselves.

This is almost exactly my opinion of this subject.  It's nice to discuss opinions on this stuff with other players and get their insight on it.  Thank you Mr. OP Troll guy.

[Reiella]

The Angry One wrote...

It's not so much a secret that only Grey Wardens know of (the mages who helped would obviously know too) as it's a secret kept from the general populace.
Someone who demonstrated such a panicky nature as Jory is surely a liability, I'd bet the first thing he'd do is flee to Highever and tell his wife, who'd tell her friends, who'd tell the milkman, who'd tell the farmer, and then the entire nation knows that Grey Wardens drink darkspawn blood and maybe come to think they're as dangerous as darkspawn themselves.

And they are...  Just takes 30 years, give or take for that danger to be literally equal.

[MBirkhofer]

David Gaider wrote...

Saurel wrote...
Yeah Duncan was cornering him...and his reasoning with Jory wasn't so much reasoning as "You can't turn back"

really they should  have gotten Alistair in there "Ok Jory just calm down, ok....we're gonna have to kill you if you don't do this.."

"Is that alright with you?"

Well, *I* was always of the opinion that they should just wrestle him to the ground and pour it down his throat.

Or maybe they should just take your weapons away prior to the Joining?

Jory: "Why do you need my weapon?"
Alistair: "Tradition! Yes. Tradition. That."

Being overpowered by your understandably skittish recruits is probably a serious concern.

The Joining, and the Grey Wardens seem incredibly dumb in comparison to the Legion of the Dead..  The Legioin join knowing full well, its a death sentance.

I was a bit disspointed my character couldn't call Duncan on the actions a bit more.  Such as those two mentioned scenarios which I also thought of, and would make more sense.   Of course a recruit might panic and draw his weapons if the prior recruit dies horrifically right before him.
While doing it all together might build some kind of fellowship.  Doing it solo and indiviually so they DON'T see the other die, like the mages Harrowing also, makes alot more sense.

[Endurium]

Jory has a wife and got himself involved anyway; only at the last minute did he decide he wanted out, and then made the mistake of pulling a sword rather than running. Duncan was justified in his action. Jory wasn't too bright, and the player even gets a chance to say that earlier on. For laughs I stripped him of his gear just before starting the ritual, but he still spawns a sword for the purpose of that scene. I'm never sorry to see him go, but I wish Daveth could survive; he has more sense.



The game can be dark but I've been playing as a hero of sorts so while there have been unfortunate deaths now and then, my experience has been largely positive. However, I'm starting a city elf character who'll use what happens to his bride as a reason to take the 'low path' in this game and see just how dark it can be. I did that in Jade Empire and wasn't disappointed.



Oh, and it was so funny to see Jory quake in fear before my human mage. That guy really is a simple-minded fool.

[ToranagaX]

I agree that it's murder but not evil in the most logical sense. As it does have some logical merit to it, as frail as it is.  But that's what makes it  one of my few if not only complaint about the whole story from what I've played so far. So don't get me wrong when I get on this rant.

A) First of all, is the secrecy. All that was said was it's "Dangerous", but not life or death dangerous in a single moment. Where it's adhering to the Frediuan philosophy going along the lines of "You must consume the dragon and not become it, in order to become stronger than it". The Warning of "No Turning Back" or even the wilderness outing, doesn't prepare one mentally for that at all.

Jory was the one responding in defense to the ritual.

C) I think most of all: the Grey Wardens contradict both themselves as humans and their philosophy, when they choose to kill one of their kind in order to make sure that they keep their secret safe. Because they then become no better than the monsters that they're fighting against - sacrifices needed or not.

As sacrifices should be made by the individuals themselves - and when they have all of the info in hand: not by one of leading authorities of the group who deftly keeps the information hidden from them until the very end.

D) When getting to the gamplay side of it: It simply forces you to adhere to these fallacies.

E) When rolling in the "If" factors, if the game allowed to you stop duncan, convincing Jory to keep his secret would've been a choice. For I don't think he would've told anyone since he would be so grateful to live his life with his family - blight ravaging the land or not.

Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

Edit: Sorry about the numerous mistakes, I edited a lot out - and I'm a little sleepy .

Modifié par ToranagaX, 15 novembre 2009 - 08:37 .

[JohnF1986]

Jory would have been a liability. I don't think he'd keep his mouth shut even if persuaded to do so if he was allowed to leave.

Reiella wrote...

And they are...  Just takes 30 years, give or take for that danger to be literally equal.

At least since the Architects appearance, yes. Although I think that most of the Wardens just did what everyone thought the Calling should be like, die happy surrounded by a huge swarm of locks.