90 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Phaedon wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
According to ME2, though, the collectors were (appearantly) an already known race and had been for a long time. Everyone completely ignores the fact that if they are that old,

But no one knows if the Collecotrs are old or not. There is no evidence visible to the Council races to suggest that the Collectors are older than let's say the Raloi or the Salarians.

And there is no evidence that they aren't either. There premise seems to be entirely based on the Prothean extinction, irrespective of the fact they deny Liara's theory (now known to us as fact) that the Protheans weren't the first either, and irrespective of this being only a small part of the galaxy. They are basing everything on one race's fate.

[eldav]

...yes, an apology for insulting our intelligence

[MisterJB]

iakus wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
"replace" Sovereign is just unsupportable.

Sovereign's purpose was one. To open a shortcut for the Reapers. That's what Harbinger expected the Collectors to do once they finished the Human Reaper.

How?

This new Reaper has no one to close the arms to protect it from the Citadel Fleet or shut down the relay system to stop reinforcements from coming in

Even if it did, the Conduit is known to exist at this point and has likely been deactivated (that is a pretty big hole in Citadel Security after all)

One Collector Cruiser is not going to hold off the entire Citadel Fleet for it.

Yes they're still rebuilding the fleet, but the Reaper is still years or even decades from being finished.  It will likely have to face a finished fleet that is more advanced that what Sovereign faced last time (thank you thanix cannons)
and that's assuming the Alliance didn't take the fight to the Collectors long before.

Edit:  The only way a replacement for Sovereign makes sense is if there's another shortcut out there that requires a Reaper.  Something more difficult than assaulting the CItadel with a fleet backing you and an unsuspected back entrance into it.  But easier than trying a a frontal assault on a Citadel all by your lonesome.

Well, for one the Geth Heretics still existed and they were planned on turning all Geth into Heretics. That's a pretty big fleet rigth there. And if Shepard destroyed the virus, I'm sure the Reapers would think of something.
And then, the only reason Sovereign died was because Shepard destroyed his avatar, Saren, which killed Sovereign's mind. By controlling the Collectors through the Collector General, the Human-Reaper would have been safe from this so, it's not entirely out of question that, if backed by the Collectors, it could have taken on the Council Fleet and hold it off just long enough to open the gates to the other Reapers.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 février 2011 - 09:55 .

[Fixers0]

Phaedon wrote...

Well, the thing is, the general outline of the trilogy was finished before ME1 was released so this argument is invalid. Unless you believe of course, that all ME games suffer from bad writing anyway, which counters your previous statements.

Sorry but I have to disagree, Seeing how the Collectors and many other things were never mentioned in the first game, i do think that they had the basic idea of the trilogy back them, but it was just a draft, and as evidenced by Mass effect 2 the game took a whole different direction, i suggest you read this article (www.gamezenith.com/ ) and you see what i'm talking about.

[Iakus]

marshalleck wrote...

No. The best thing they could do IMO is pretend it never happened, it was all just a bad dream. Space Terminator doesn't need any more of a legitimate stake in this franchise than it has now. 

No thanks, they already pretend enough of ME 1 never happened.  I don't want to encourage more of that behavior.

What I want is an explanation as to what the point of it was.  There must be a reason, even if they didn't articulate one.  They wouldn't go with a simple "'Cause it would be bad**** to have Shepard fight a Reaper" would they?

[Phaedon]

Moiaussi wrote...
And there is no evidence that they aren't either. There premise seems to be entirely based on the Prothean extinction, irrespective of the fact they deny Liara's theory (now known to us as fact) that the Protheans weren't the first either, and irrespective of this being only a small part of the galaxy. They are basing everything on one race's fate.

The Collectors are considered a myth by most, and anyway it's a case of proven guilty until innocent. I am assuming that my keyboard won't explode because there is no evidence suggesting that it has been wired with explosive matieral. It doesn't make any sense to think that my keyboard will explode because there is no evidence to suggest that it isn't dangerous.

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 février 2011 - 09:59 .

[The real truth]

MisterJB wrote...

iakus wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
"replace" Sovereign is just unsupportable.

Sovereign's purpose was one. To open a shortcut for the Reapers. That's what Harbinger expected the Collectors to do once they finished the Human Reaper.

How?

This new Reaper has no one to close the arms to protect it from the Citadel Fleet or shut down the relay system to stop reinforcements from coming in

Even if it did, the Conduit is known to exist at this point and has likely been deactivated (that is a pretty big hole in Citadel Security after all)

One Collector Cruiser is not going to hold off the entire Citadel Fleet for it.

Yes they're still rebuilding the fleet, but the Reaper is still years or even decades from being finished.  It will likely have to face a finished fleet that is more advanced that what Sovereign faced last time (thank you thanix cannons)
and that's assuming the Alliance didn't take the fight to the Collectors long before.

Edit:  The only way a replacement for Sovereign makes sense is if there's another shortcut out there that requires a Reaper.  Something more difficult than assaulting the CItadel with a fleet backing you and an unsuspected back entrance into it.  But easier than trying a a frontal assault on a Citadel all by your lonesome.

Well, for one the Geth Heretics still existed and they were planned on turning all Geth into Heretics. That's a pretty big fleet rigth there. And if Shepard destroyed the virus, I'm sure the Reapers would think of something.
And then, the only reason Sovereign died was because Shepard destroyed his avatar, Saren, which killed Sovereign's mind. By controlling the Collectors through the Collector General, the Human-Reaper would have been safe from this so, it's not entirely out of question that, if backed by the Collectors, it could have taken on the Council Fleet and hold it off just long enough to open the gates to the other Reapers.

There's a time problem here.
It going to take age's to finish the reaper.
And the reapers would've made it to the galaxy years before it was finished.


Lol he can open it for the way back.

Modifié par The real truth, 27 février 2011 - 10:01 .

[TheRealIncarnal]

Or maybe they didn't put all of their eggs in one basket and left a back door in an automatic mass relay into the Galaxy that's off the beaten path so if something did go wrong they could still come back and have a shot.

You know, like an intelligent species would.

[marshalleck]

iakus wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

No. The best thing they could do IMO is pretend it never happened, it was all just a bad dream. Space Terminator doesn't need any more of a legitimate stake in this franchise than it has now. 

No thanks, they already pretend enough of ME 1 never happened.  I don't want to encourage more of that behavior.

What I want is an explanation as to what the point of it was.  There must be a reason, even if they didn't articulate one.  They wouldn't go with a simple "'Cause it would be bad**** to have Shepard fight a Reaper" would they?

That was pretty much their justification for the glowing renegade scars. I mean, Shepard never once stopped to ask exactly what it was Cerberus did to him/her. So I wouldn't put "because it would be badass" past Chud and Mac.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 février 2011 - 10:03 .

[Praetor Knight]

Fixers0 wrote...

Sorry but I have to disagree, Seeing how the Collectors and many other things were never mentioned in the first game, i do think that they had the basic idea of the trilogy back them, but it was just a draft, and as evidenced by Mass effect 2 the game took a whole different direction, i suggest you read this article (www.gamezenith.com/ ) and you see what i'm talking about.

Well, there is a lot of Sci Fi that does that. That introduces something new that was never mentioned in the first one, be it a game, series, movies  and so on.

So that is not a good point to argue from, IMHO.

[Phaedon]

iakus wrote...
You're right, I don't.  However, given that we only see one Collector ship through the entire game, it is unlikely they have much of a fleet.

Assuming the Collectors did eventually target Earth, they'd be in for one heck of a fight.  So far, they had only targeted indicidual frientier colonies, virtually undefended.   Earth is a homeworld, an entire fleet of warships defends it, and working orbital and ground defenses.  Biotic soldiers.  People in body armor, even!  The tactics we've seen so far have been smash and grab in places nobody cares about.  And even that was drawing notice.  If they were to build up to something even close to Earth, the Alliance (and maybe the Citadel as a whole) will fall like a hammer on the Collectors, war with the Terminus or not.

As I said, it could take a century before the Collectors attacked Earth. With Reaper technolodgy they could have easily built a huge fleet.

Fixers0 wrote...
Sorry but I have to disagree, Seeing how the Collectors and many other things were never mentioned in the first game, i do think that they had the basic idea of the trilogy back them, but it was just a draft, and as evidenced by Mass effect 2 the game took a whole different direction, i suggest you read this article (www.gamezenith.com/ ) and you see what i'm talking about.

So, this draft which has been confirmed to have been followed in the final interview (not that it hasn't been confirmed dozens of times) was generic enough for the the 'Collectors are building a Reaper' plot to not have been decided?

Anyway, I am off for now.

EDIT: 

marshalleck wrote...That was pretty much their justification for the glowing renegade scars. I mean, Shepard never once stopped to ask exactly what it was Cerberus did to him/her. So I wouldn't put "because it would be badass" past Chud and Mac.

Umm, TIM's cybernetic eyes glow too.

MUST BE A PLOTHOLE TOO

Modifié par Phaedon, 27 février 2011 - 10:05 .

[Iakus]

MisterJB wrote...

Well, for one the Geth Heretics still existed and they were planned on turning all Geth into Heretics. That's a pretty big fleet rigth there. And if Shepard destroyed the virus, I'm sure the Reapers would think of something.
And then, the only reason Sovereign died was because Shepard destroyed his avatar, Saren, which killed Sovereign's mind. By controlling the Collectors through the Collector General, the Human-Reaper would have been safe from this so, it's not entirely out of question that, if backed by the Collectors, it could have taken on the Council Fleet and hold it off just long enough to open the gates to the other Reapers.

This is actually a good point, which speaks to a weakness in ME 2's writing.

The stories are so compartmentalized that these two facts are never connected.  Even Shepard never makes the connection between the Heretic virus and a Collector plan to invade Earth or hit the CItadel.  It's  a completely seperate story all on its own, with no ties to the main plot.

Of course, it also assumes a connection between the Heretics and Harbringer and/or the Collectors.  The geth worked with Sovereign as their Reaper contect.

[MisterJB]

The real truth wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

iakus wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
"replace" Sovereign is just unsupportable.

Sovereign's purpose was one. To open a shortcut for the Reapers. That's what Harbinger expected the Collectors to do once they finished the Human Reaper.

How?

This new Reaper has no one to close the arms to protect it from the Citadel Fleet or shut down the relay system to stop reinforcements from coming in

Even if it did, the Conduit is known to exist at this point and has likely been deactivated (that is a pretty big hole in Citadel Security after all)

One Collector Cruiser is not going to hold off the entire Citadel Fleet for it.

Yes they're still rebuilding the fleet, but the Reaper is still years or even decades from being finished.  It will likely have to face a finished fleet that is more advanced that what Sovereign faced last time (thank you thanix cannons)
and that's assuming the Alliance didn't take the fight to the Collectors long before.

Edit:  The only way a replacement for Sovereign makes sense is if there's another shortcut out there that requires a Reaper.  Something more difficult than assaulting the CItadel with a fleet backing you and an unsuspected back entrance into it.  But easier than trying a a frontal assault on a Citadel all by your lonesome.

Well, for one the Geth Heretics still existed and they were planned on turning all Geth into Heretics. That's a pretty big fleet rigth there. And if Shepard destroyed the virus, I'm sure the Reapers would think of something.
And then, the only reason Sovereign died was because Shepard destroyed his avatar, Saren, which killed Sovereign's mind. By controlling the Collectors through the Collector General, the Human-Reaper would have been safe from this so, it's not entirely out of question that, if backed by the Collectors, it could have taken on the Council Fleet and hold it off just long enough to open the gates to the other Reapers.

There's a time problem here.
It going to take age's to finish the reaper.
And the reapers would've made it to the galaxy years before it was finished.


Lol he can open it for the way back.

I don't think you understand just how far the Reapers actually are or the amount of energy they'll have to spend just to make the trip.
The whole point of having a Vanguard like Sovereign or the Human Reaper is to avoid making such a long trip and it was still better to wait for the Collectors to finish it (since they were probrably going to build a Human Reaper anyway) than to actually fly from Dark Space into the Milky Way.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 février 2011 - 10:08 .

[The real truth]

MisterJB wrote...

The real truth wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

iakus wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...
"replace" Sovereign is just unsupportable.

Sovereign's purpose was one. To open a shortcut for the Reapers. That's what Harbinger expected the Collectors to do once they finished the Human Reaper.

How?

This new Reaper has no one to close the arms to protect it from the Citadel Fleet or shut down the relay system to stop reinforcements from coming in

Even if it did, the Conduit is known to exist at this point and has likely been deactivated (that is a pretty big hole in Citadel Security after all)

One Collector Cruiser is not going to hold off the entire Citadel Fleet for it.

Yes they're still rebuilding the fleet, but the Reaper is still years or even decades from being finished.  It will likely have to face a finished fleet that is more advanced that what Sovereign faced last time (thank you thanix cannons)
and that's assuming the Alliance didn't take the fight to the Collectors long before.

Edit:  The only way a replacement for Sovereign makes sense is if there's another shortcut out there that requires a Reaper.  Something more difficult than assaulting the CItadel with a fleet backing you and an unsuspected back entrance into it.  But easier than trying a a frontal assault on a Citadel all by your lonesome.

Well, for one the Geth Heretics still existed and they were planned on turning all Geth into Heretics. That's a pretty big fleet rigth there. And if Shepard destroyed the virus, I'm sure the Reapers would think of something.
And then, the only reason Sovereign died was because Shepard destroyed his avatar, Saren, which killed Sovereign's mind. By controlling the Collectors through the Collector General, the Human-Reaper would have been safe from this so, it's not entirely out of question that, if backed by the Collectors, it could have taken on the Council Fleet and hold it off just long enough to open the gates to the other Reapers.

There's a time problem here.
It going to take age's to finish the reaper.
And the reapers would've made it to the galaxy years before it was finished.


Lol he can open it for the way back.

I don't think you understand just how far the Reapers actually are or the amount of energy they'll have to spend just to make the trip.
The whole point of having a Vanguard like Sovereign or the Human Reaper is to avoid making such a long trip and it was still better to wait for the Collectors to finish it (since they were probrably going to build a Human Reaper anyway) than to actually fly from Dark Space into the Milky Way.

I don't think you understand they don't need any energy.
Geth;Saren Sovereign broke down again.

How the hell would they get to darkspace if they didn't go there first.

[MisterJB]

The real truth wrote...
I don't think you understand they don't need any energy.
Geth;Saren Sovereign broke down again.

How the hell would they get to darkspace if they didn't go there first.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Are you asking how did the Reapers get into Dark Space without flying there? Well, through the Mass Relay on the Citadel, obviously.
And since the Reapers hibernate in Dark Space to save energy, I do think they need some kind of energy to maintain themselves functional.

Modifié par MisterJB, 27 février 2011 - 10:22 .

[Moiaussi]

Fixers0 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Well, the thing is, the general outline of the trilogy was finished before ME1 was released so this argument is invalid. Unless you believe of course, that all ME games suffer from bad writing anyway, which counters your previous statements.

Sorry but I have to disagree, Seeing how the Collectors and many other things were never mentioned in the first game, i do think that they had the basic idea of the trilogy back them, but it was just a draft, and as evidenced by Mass effect 2 the game took a whole different direction, i suggest you read this article (www.gamezenith.com/ ) and you see what i'm talking about.

Furthermore they switched writers, and started adding comic books and treating them as canon in addition to the books, despite continuity errors and/or retcons.

[The real truth]

MisterJB wrote...

The real truth wrote...
I don't think you understand they don't need any energy.
Geth;Saren Sovereign broke down again.

How the hell would they get to darkspace if they didn't go there first.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Are you asking how did the Reapers get into Dark Space without flying there? Well, through the Mass Relay on the Citadel, obviously.
And since the Reapers hibernate in Dark Space to save energy, I do think they need some kind of energy to maintain themselves alive.

No they build the citadel relay and just magical expect to pop at a random spot in darkspace without ever actually going there.

[Moiaussi]

MisterJB wrote...

The real truth wrote...
I don't think you understand they don't need any energy.
Geth;Saren Sovereign broke down again.

How the hell would they get to darkspace if they didn't go there first.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Are you asking how did the Reapers get into Dark Space without flying there? Well, through the Mass Relay on the Citadel, obviously.
And since the Reapers hibernate in Dark Space to save energy, I do think they need some kind of energy to maintain themselves alive.

All that assumes that there are no other relays the Reapers could use instead... the whole Citadel thing was a strategic choice, not neccessarily their only option.

As for why build the new reaper, though, their primary strategic choice is still the ideal for them. Also they did need a replacement for Sovereign.

It is also possible that a Reaper built with human dna might be better at indoctrinating humans. Notice that Shep never seems to notice any effects, despite Eden, Vermire, the Citadel, etc.

[MisterJB]

The real truth wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The real truth wrote...
I don't think you understand they don't need any energy.
Geth;Saren Sovereign broke down again.

How the hell would they get to darkspace if they didn't go there first.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Are you asking how did the Reapers get into Dark Space without flying there? Well, through the Mass Relay on the Citadel, obviously.
And since the Reapers hibernate in Dark Space to save energy, I do think they need some kind of energy to maintain themselves alive.

No they build the citadel relay and just magical expect to pop at a random spot in darkspace without ever actually going there.

 I didn't notice any other Relay on the Galactic Core connecting to the Omega 4 but hey, the Normandy got through. Maybe the Citadel Relay is just special like that.

[marshalleck]

Phaedon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...That was pretty much their justification for the glowing renegade scars. I mean, Shepard never once stopped to ask exactly what it was Cerberus did to him/her. So I wouldn't put "because it would be badass" past Chud and Mac.

Umm, TIM's cybernetic eyes glow too.

MUST BE A PLOTHOLE TOO

Your attempt at putting words in my mouth is rather weak and pathetic. You should go ahead and take a break now. 

[Gentleman Moogle]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Reapers aren't only working on one plan at a time, but that they had several sticks in the fire, so to speak. For instance, one 'plan' might have been the re-growth of a reaper to take over Sovereign's 'open the mass relay' duties, and that's the one that Shepard foiled. But there might be other plans in the works as well that we missed thanks to the blatant 'hey, we're doing something evil' collector plot that overshadowed it. The Reapers don't strike me as the type of race to only have one egg in one basket at a time.

So yeah, I think they're multi-tasking. Shepard stopped one plan (Build new reaper, open gate, ???, Profit), but there are others that are still moving forward that we haven't been paying attention to because we were too focused on the most obvious one.

Also, keep in mind that the species of the galaxy don't actually know a lot about how the citadel works thanks to the Keepers. It's very probable that they haven't shut down the conduit or anything else having to do with the Reapers, simply because they don't know how to.

[marshalleck]

MisterJB wrote...

The real truth wrote...
I don't think you understand they don't need any energy.
Geth;Saren Sovereign broke down again.

How the hell would they get to darkspace if they didn't go there first.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Are you asking how did the Reapers get into Dark Space without flying there? Well, through the Mass Relay on the Citadel, obviously.
And since the Reapers hibernate in Dark Space to save energy, I do think they need some kind of energy to maintain themselves functional.

You certainly don't understand. Mass Relays offer instantaneous transit between two points. For there to be a mass relay in dark space, it had to have been built there or moved there at some point--ergo, some Reapers had to get there under their own power at some point in the distant past. You can't just take a random shot into space in any direction from a mass relay. They have to be paired.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 février 2011 - 10:29 .

[MisterJB]

marshalleck wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The real truth wrote...
I don't think you understand they don't need any energy.
Geth;Saren Sovereign broke down again.

How the hell would they get to darkspace if they didn't go there first.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Are you asking how did the Reapers get into Dark Space without flying there? Well, through the Mass Relay on the Citadel, obviously.
And since the Reapers hibernate in Dark Space to save energy, I do think they need some kind of energy to maintain themselves functional.

You certainly don't understand. Mass Relays offer instantaneous transit between two points. For there to be a mass relay in dark space, it had to have been built there or moved there at some point--ergo, some Reapers had to get there under their own power at some point in the distant past. You can't just take a random shot into space in any direction from a mass relay. They have to be paired.

There was no Relay on the Galactic Core connecting to the Omega 4. So, it seems to be possible to travel to some point using a single Relay.
Of course, it's also possible that the Relay was there and Bioware just didn't bother to show it, instead focusing on the badass action sequences.
If so, then I stand corrected.

[The real truth]

MisterJB wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

The real truth wrote...
I don't think you understand they don't need any energy.
Geth;Saren Sovereign broke down again.

How the hell would they get to darkspace if they didn't go there first.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say.
Are you asking how did the Reapers get into Dark Space without flying there? Well, through the Mass Relay on the Citadel, obviously.
And since the Reapers hibernate in Dark Space to save energy, I do think they need some kind of energy to maintain themselves functional.

You certainly don't understand. Mass Relays offer instantaneous transit between two points. For there to be a mass relay in dark space, it had to have been built there or moved there at some point--ergo, some Reapers had to get there under their own power at some point in the distant past. You can't just take a random shot into space in any direction from a mass relay. They have to be paired.

There was no Relay on the Galactic Core connecting to the Omega 4. So, it seems to be possible to travel to some point using a single Relay.
Of course, it's also possible that the Relay was there and Bioware just didn't bother to show it, instead focusing on the badass action sequences.
If so, then I stand corrected.

I don't understand how they would get out of the core if there was only 1 relay.

[marshalleck]

MisterJB wrote...

There was no Relay on the Galactic Core connecting to the Omega 4. So, it seems to be possible to travel to some point using a single Relay.
Of course, it's also possible that the Relay was there and Bioware just didn't bother to show it, instead focusing on the badass action sequences.
If so, then I stand corrected.

Yes there was, you have to pay attention (and it helps to read the codex entries on relays) to how the Reaper IFF works. The reason it was needed is because the O4 relay would dump ships too close to the thousands of gravity wells and black holes in the core if it didn't get a "Friend" signal from the IFF. That's why ships never returned; they would transit through and then be almost immediately torn apart. When the O4 relay receives a Friend signal from the IFF, it deposits the transiting craft into a 'safe' corridor of space. This has to do with the "drift" mechanics mentioned by Joker in the opening lines of the very first game. 

Joker: "...drift, just under 15k."

Nihlus "That's good. Your captain should be proud."

From the codex:

The crucial choice for any attack through mass relays is how to divide the fleet for transit. The accuracy of a relay's mass-projection depends on the mass being moved and how far it’s going. Any long distance and/or high mass jump will see "drift". That is, a ship may be hundreds or millions of kilometers from its intended drop point, in any direction from the relay.

Distance can't be chosen by admirals, but a relay is told how much mass to transit. For example, if told to move a million metric tons of mass, the relay will scan the approach corridor, find four 250,000-ton freighters, and transit them together, maintaining their relative positions.

 
For the Normandy to come out 15,000 km from the end-point relay, Joker practically landed the ship on a dime. Likewise, only by manipulating the Reaper security technology hidden in the relays was it safe to transit into the galactic core--the relay itself eliminated the drift.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 février 2011 - 10:59 .