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[Ziggeh]

Zeroed55 wrote...

Eh. I take Kyle Katarn's stance on most powers, blood magic included:

"None of your powers are inherently good or evil. It's how you use them that counts."

He said that about The Force?

[Zeroed55]

Ziggeh wrote...

Zeroed55 wrote...

Eh. I take Kyle Katarn's stance on most powers, blood magic included:

"None of your powers are inherently good or evil. It's how you use them that counts."

He said that about The Force?

Yes. Ahh, the days of Jedi Academy...

[AngryFrozenWater]

More info about the origin of Blood Magic and the codex entries can be found by clicking here.

[Sandy2009]

Zeroed55 wrote...

Eh. I take Kyle Katarn's stance on most powers, blood magic included:

"None of your powers are inherently good or evil. It's how you use them that counts."

That can apply to Blood Magic as well, as long as no pacts with demons are involved, and you are using your own blood, not blood you gained through sacrifice.

The Grey Wardens get the idea. It's not evil in itself, it's another weapon with which to fight the Darkspawn.

Ah... there in lies the problem. You don't need blood magic to fight darkspawn. You can easily finish the game with regular magic It is your warden's lust for power that drives him into blood magic, not because he needs it.

As the Oracle says in Matrix "What do powerful people want... more power!"

[Sandy2009]

double post.

Modifié par Sandy2009, 02 mars 2011 - 08:22 .

[TEWR]

but blood magic is a more effective way of killing darkspawn. My mage warden let the blood mage who pleaded for her life in the tower live by telling her to go downstairs. She said "But I'm a..."

Dialogue choice: A blood mage yes, which means you can kill darkspawn easier. Just don't tell them who you are"

This is only open to a certain dialogue path I believe, and definitely only available to a Mage Warden.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Sandy2009 wrote...

Zeroed55 wrote...

Eh. I take Kyle Katarn's stance on most powers, blood magic included:

"None of your powers are inherently good or evil. It's how you use them that counts."

That can apply to Blood Magic as well, as long as no pacts with demons are involved, and you are using your own blood, not blood you gained through sacrifice.

The Grey Wardens get the idea. It's not evil in itself, it's another weapon with which to fight the Darkspawn.

Ah... there in lies the problem. You don't need blood magic to fight darkspawn. You can easily finish the game with regular magic It is your warden's lust for power that drives him into blood magic, not because he needs it.

As the Oracle says in Matrix "What do powerful people want... more power!"

Game-play mechanics do not constitute the broader context of Blood-Magic. Truly, you could argue that the warden does want the power to defeat the Darkspawn, but it is not necessarily true that he is power-hungry for that reason alone. Technically, just because you have the ability does not mean that you are evil. There are many shades of grey in the summoning of spirits, like it is demonstrated in the Summoning Sciences quest. Furthermore, I think that from a role-playing perspective, Blood-magic offers a way for a mage to continue to cast spells when his personal magic reserves are depleted.

[Zeroed55]

Sandy2009 wrote...

Zeroed55 wrote...

Eh. I take Kyle Katarn's stance on most powers, blood magic included:

"None of your powers are inherently good or evil. It's how you use them that counts."

That can apply to Blood Magic as well, as long as no pacts with demons are involved, and you are using your own blood, not blood you gained through sacrifice.

The Grey Wardens get the idea. It's not evil in itself, it's another weapon with which to fight the Darkspawn.

Ah... there in lies the problem. You don't need blood magic to fight darkspawn. You can easily finish the game with regular magic It is your warden's lust for power that drives him into blood magic, not because he needs it.

As the Oracle says in Matrix "What do powerful people want... more power!"

But we're not talking from a gameplay perspective here, we're talking lore-wise.

The darkspawn are the single largest threat to sentient life in all of Thedas. Until someone stops Blights from happening altogether, they will continue you to be the largest, looming threat in Thedas as well, dwarfing both the Qun and the Imperium.

Blood Magic, given it is not acquired via pacts with demons or used through sacrificing others, is another weapon in the Grey Wardens' arsenal to give them the edge over the darkspawn hordes. Thus my point stands; Blood Magic is not inherently evil, it's the mage using it that counts.

[Vicious]

I learned blood magic in DAO by telling the Demon to leave before I got nasty, simultaneously freeing Conner and gaining another weapon against the blight.

So how was I evil????

[Riloux]

It's not inherently evil. It may have come from an evil source, but it all depends on how it's used. It can be very useful for both good and evil. E.g. Uldred was evil. Jowan was not. Avernus is a grey area.

Modifié par Riloux, 03 mars 2011 - 01:05 .

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

JamesX wrote...

What you posted was not about the Gray Warden sacrifing himself.  What you quoted is someone mudering someoelse achieving great good making the act of murder a very good thing.

Putting an end to women getting raped and people getting eaten by darkspawn and the total destruction of the enviornment by an irrevocable threat that forever turns land desolate is a good thing, James, but I can see we're not going to agree on this issue.

Dear Lord.

You're more than welcome not to respond to my posts, Lotion.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Mind sking the woman you killed how she feels about it?
Evil is evil - even if it's done for a good cause.
Now, SELF-sacrifice is another thing. But one person sacrificing another, against their will?

I said the result of the world being saved from the Blight and the Archdemon was a good thing.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But I'm surprised you of all people hold this oppinion. You are saying that sacrificing a few to save the many is a good thing.

I'm surprised you want to turn this into another mage v. templar debate.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wow..the chantry and the templars ae gonna be glad to hear this.

There's no proof imprisoning mages is even necessary, Lotion. The debate never reaches a consensus precisely because nobody agrees on the issue.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Apparently confining mages is no longer a necessary evil, ti is now a good thing.

The oppression of the mages has never shown to be necessary.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Regarding blood magic - I fall back to the most basic of logic here.

Anyone who can mind control people is NOT someone that can be trusted. EVER.

By logic, you actually mean opinion, because I see plenty of people seem to think the Jedi (who can influence the minds of others) are trustworthy. I'm certain many people trust the Grey Wardens, especially since they take a stand against the darkspawn.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How can you trust him, when that trust might only be a illusions, something he put in your head? For all you know, he can be doing your wife every night..and doing you..and you wake up with your butt feeling stiff, but can't remember why...

Why do you trust a military of lyrium addicts who answer only to a religious order? I don't see why people should wouldn't trust blood mages who use their abilities to fight against the greatest threat against all civilization, as Duncan reveals in the Magi Origin.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Trusting anyone with mind control power is illogical and foolish.
Hence why such power should not be allowed.

So you think anyone who disagrees with you is a fool?

[Cheese00]

In an ideological sense, it can be seen as good and bad.

On the one hand, it can be seen as the one truly free method of the usage of magic, due to regular magic's reliance on spirits of the Fade in order to be used. In contrast, blood magic can be seen as a morally questionable act, due to the usage of the sacrifice of physical forces (even people sometimes, which is a major no-no). Of course, blood magic is usually also associated with abominations, due to it's allure actually causing people to take off more that they can chew in regards to magic, and becoming possessed or worse.

Alright, well, it can still be down to the opinion of the masses in Thedas and the moral consequences, so you choose if you want to be a blood mage or not in DA II (I am, since I won't use spirit healer too much and force mage is my go to spec due to the raw power of it).

[Sandy2009]

but blood magic is a more effective way of killing darkspawn. My mage warden let the blood mage who pleaded for her life in the tower live by telling her to go downstairs. She said "But I'm a..."

Dialogue choice: A blood mage yes, which means you can kill darkspawn easier. Just don't tell them who you are"

This is only open to a certain dialogue path I believe, and definitely only available to a Mage Warden.

Game-play mechanics do not constitute the broader context of Blood-Magic. Truly, you could argue that the warden does want the power to defeat the Darkspawn, but it is not necessarily true that he is power-hungry for that reason alone. Technically, just because you have the ability does not mean that you are evil. There are many shades of grey in the summoning of spirits, like it is demonstrated in the Summoning Sciences quest. Furthermore, I think that from a role-playing perspective, Blood-magic offers a way for a mage to continue to cast spells when his personal magic reserves are depleted.

But we're not talking from a gameplay perspective here, we're talking lore-wise.
The darkspawn are the single largest threat to sentient life in all of Thedas. Until someone stops Blights from happening altogether, they will continue you to be the largest, looming threat in Thedas as well, dwarfing both the Qun and the Imperium.
Blood Magic, given it is not acquired via pacts with demons or used through sacrificing others, is another weapon in the Grey Wardens' arsenal to give them the edge over the darkspawn hordes. Thus my point stands; Blood Magic is not inherently evil, it's the mage using it that counts.

Interesting points. Let's look at lore first. I did not see any example of a good blood mage in the lore. Even if you can find a single example of blood mage who used it for benefit of society, evaluate that against lore of all the pain and suffering blood mages have caused (including creation of darkspawn). Lore supports chantry's view that blood mages turn out to be BAD people.

You guys are looking at your warden as some morally upright, law upholding, ideal citizen. According to game, he is not at all like that. He is just an ordinary guy who wants to get married and have an ordinary life (city elf) but easily gives into rage/anger/killings when provoked (Aniken skywalker type of personality). If you did mage origin, did you kill any guards in Jowan quest (who were just doing their duty). Carefully look at actions of your warden in later parts of game (did he kill ser cathrine, how many total number of guards did he kill). Did he kill high dragon without any provocation? What proof did he have against flemeth other than words of Morrigan, who has her own agenda all along!

What I am trying to establish here is the in-game character of you warden. It seems he gives in to negative emotions easily . In his hands, blood magic won't be as safe as you may want.


A minor point, but I will mention it anyway. Suppose your warden has blood magic and he is romancing Morrigan. If she asks for BM knowledge, what would you do? She is very good at using her charms to get anything she wants . So at the end of game, not only she has child with soul of archdeamon, she also has blood magic and then she just disappears. Do you think she is collecting all this to make the world a better place?

Modifié par Sandy2009, 03 mars 2011 - 05:01 .

[TEWR]

That high dragon would've killed people if I hadn't killed it first. Besides.... it gave me a funny look. It had it coming.

And even Flemeth subtly admitted to her plans with Morrigan through proper dialogue routes

and you're trying to rationalize everyone's Warden to be how you perceive him/her to be. Most of the guards you kill were corrupt, like Captain Chase in the Antivan Crows sidequests. Cauthrien always lives in my playthroughs, through manipulation of the Summer Sword glitch. Knock her out in Arl Howe's castle, take Summer Sword, let them beat you, get captured, go to landsmeet, see Cauthrien! Everyone wins!

And the city elf was your warden I take it. But what about the Dwarf Noble? Specifically mine, a man who found it hard to believe that Trian, despite being an a-hole would try to have him killed. Trian's a*sholeness was how he showed his love to his family (even if you do try to kill him, he wants you to surrender because he doesn't want to kill you and finds it hard to believe you would resort to it). All I killed were Darkspawn and maybe some Deepstalkers, and participated in Proving matches, assassinated a man who didn't know his place and would've tried to assassinate me, given how he said what he said.

and the guards in the Mage Origin, were only Sentinels. They're not people. They're living suits of armor meant to guard the magical storage rooms.

EDIT: That whole Morrigan point you made is not a good point, minor or no. She doesn't ask you for knowledge and wouldn't. Her charms don't work on everyone. Even if they did, it seems she fell prey to the Warden's charms more than he did to hers, Morrigan is not the "evil, I will kill everyone so I can be more powerful" type of person. She's a b*tch yes. She says power is important. But she also knows not to do stuff like that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 mars 2011 - 05:08 .

[Sandy2009]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That high dragon would've killed people if I hadn't killed it first. Besides.... it gave me a funny look. It had it coming.

And even Flemeth subtly admitted to her plans with Morrigan through proper dialogue routes


**** I look at Flemeth's character in game as purposely undefined (insufficent information). She may not turn out to be evil at all in future editions of game, we don't know. Her reasons and existance is beyond what warden or morrigan can understand. There are too many theories about Flemeth.


and you're trying to rationalize everyone's Warden to be how you perceive him/her to be. Most of the guards you kill were corrupt, like Captain Chase in the Antivan Crows sidequests. Cauthrien always lives in my playthroughs, through manipulation of the Summer Sword glitch. Knock her out in Arl Howe's castle, take Summer Sword, let them beat you, get captured, go to landsmeet, see Cauthrien! Everyone wins!


***** I certainly don't want to define how you play your character. However, I don't think guards are evil. Guards are just neutal characters doing their job. The circle tower basement is protected by guards who were just doing their duty (protecting something of value).



And the city elf was your warden I take it. But what about the Dwarf Noble? Specifically mine, a man who found it hard to believe that Trian, despite being an a-hole would try to have him killed. Trian's a*sholeness was how he showed his love to his family (even if you do try to kill him, he wants you to surrender because he doesn't want to kill you and finds it hard to believe you would resort to it). All I killed were Darkspawn and maybe some Deepstalkers, and participated in Proving matches, assassinated a man who didn't know his place and would've tried to assassinate me, given how he said what he said.

and the guards in the Mage Origin, were only Sentinels. They're not people. They're living suits of armor meant to guard the magical storage rooms.

EDIT: That whole Morrigan point you made is not a good point, minor or no. She doesn't ask you for knowledge and wouldn't. Her charms don't work on everyone. Even if they did, it seems she fell prey to the Warden's charms more than he did to hers, Morrigan is not the "evil, I will kill everyone so I can be more powerful" type of person. She's a b*tch yes. She says power is important. But she also knows not to do stuff like that.


**** I would not use word evil for Morrigan but she craves power. She is annoyed when you engage in socially good acts. She does not care about other humans (lots of her dialogues reveal that). If she sees  If she sees you using BM and how it has made you powerful, she may also want it. I guess my point is, other people may get the knowledge from you and you have no control over what they are doing!

Modifié par Sandy2009, 03 mars 2011 - 05:35 .

[Aesieru]

It's not FROM demons though, therefore no, it isn't evil.

It's a form of control over another, that in itself tempts people to do bad things with it.

To study a pathway to abilities some would consider... unnatural.

[Kerethos]

The option to tell the blood mage to kill darkspawn for you is available if the Warden or any companion has the blood mage specialization. It isn't mage specific.

Morrigan does what she does, not for power, but for survival. That's her goal, that's her main motivation. Power is a means through which she can ensure her survival. Her falling in love with a male warden is thus a liability, as she's likely to endanger herself to save you - making it a weakness. No matter what, she'll do what ever she has to in order to survive.

If the Sentinels are living armors, then they must have been made in a similar way as the Golems, as you need a spirits to animate something and the dwarven way is the only known one. After all, I doubt they're obedient undead. This means they are likely to have been people at some point.

As for my own opinion on blood magic I don't think that it's anu more evil then any other tool. It can be used for both good and evil, and it's the evil uses that draws the most attention.

[leggywillow]

As a gamer, I had a weird experience with the "corrupting" side of blood magic. 

My Surana that I'm taking through Origins to pass the time until next Tuesday is a blood mage.  (It was mostly for role-playing purposes, since she's a squishy caster not a BM/AW combo so I feel as if I'm not using it to the maximum.)  The only blood magic spell I usually use is Blood Wound, because it's just unbelievably cool, plus she isn't actually hurting any innocents to do that.  It's her own blood used to wound things trying to kill her.  She never wanted to use it to control others or hurt innocents.

But then I found myself in a tight spot... health almost gone, no health potions.  I used Blood Sacrifice and took the very last of Zevran's health to save myself.  As the player, it felt uncomfortable.  My Surana and I had started out with innocent intentions but were ultimately tempted by the darker side of blood magic.

I guess this doesn't tie into the discussion much, but it added a nice little unintentional twist to my role-playing.  I was also surprised by how it affected me as the gamer... I truly felt a bit horrified by what I'd done.  Silly, but interesting.

Modifié par leggywillow, 03 mars 2011 - 05:41 .

[Morning808]

I will always use it to overpower my enemys...but again I like being evil so...ya...I use it for evil

[Sandy2009]

leggywillow wrote...

As a gamer, I had a weird experience with the "corrupting" side of blood magic. 

My Surana that I'm taking through Origins to pass the time until next Tuesday is a blood mage.  (It was mostly for role-playing purposes, since she's a squishy caster not a BM/AW combo so I feel as if I'm not using it to the maximum.)  The only blood magic spell I usually use is Blood Wound, because it's just unbelievably cool, plus she isn't actually hurting any innocents to do that.  It's her own blood used to wound things trying to kill her.  She never wanted to use it to control others or hurt innocents.

But then I found myself in a tight spot... health almost gone, no health potions.  I used Blood Sacrifice and took the very last of Zevran's health to save myself.  As the player, it felt uncomfortable.  My Surana and I had started out with innocent intentions but were ultimately tempted by the darker side of blood magic.

I guess this doesn't tie into the discussion much, but it added a nice little unintentional twist to my role-playing.  I was also surprised by how it affected me as the gamer... I truly felt a bit horrified by what I'd done.  Silly, but interesting.

Well it does tie into the discussion. BM gave you power. You wanted to use it a certain way but as things got tough, you started taking away health of your party members to stay alive. To see how painful that may be think of some other blood mage in your party. Anytime his lyrium runs out, he stabs you with a blunt object, fills up a cup of your blood and then puts some healing band aid. How long would you want to stay in this party?

[Crimson Invictus]

Blood magic is no more inherently "bad" than being human is inherently "bad".

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Regarding blood magic - I fall back to the most basic of logic here.

Anyone who can mind control people is NOT someone that can be trusted. EVER.

By logic, you actually mean opinion, because I see plenty of people seem to think the Jedi (who can influence the minds of others) are trustworthy. I'm certain many people trust the Grey Wardens, especially since they take a stand against the darkspawn.

Really?
You bring up fictional characters as trustworthy? And Jedi? They can influence, but it's no real mind control.

And no. That is not an oppinion. That IS logic. Cold, calculated, impassioante logic.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

How can you trust him, when that trust might only be a illusions, something he put in your head? For all you know, he can be doing your wife every night..and doing you..and you wake up with your butt feeling stiff, but can't remember why...

Why do you trust a military of lyrium addicts who answer only to a religious order? I don't see why people should wouldn't trust blood mages who use their abilities to fight against the greatest threat against all civilization, as Duncan reveals in the Magi Origin.

Can templars mind control you? No.

TRUST. Keyword.
Normal peopel cannot affect your trust, your mind with their will.

If I trust a templar, it is because I came to that conclusion myself.

If I trust a mage, it could very well be because the mage froced me to trust him - it was not my conclusion to do so.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Trusting anyone with mind control power is illogical and foolish.
Hence why such power should not be allowed.

So you think anyone who disagrees with you is a fool?

In this case? Yes.

Becase defying hte most basic logic is foollish by any definition of the word.

1+1=2. Don't expect me to consider aynone who claims otherwise a reasonable person.

[Haus of Dye]

Evil or not, I still love it! ♥ 
My favorite spells in DAO, can't wait to see the different spells this game gives blood magic.