500 réponses à ce sujet

[Kerilus]

Vicious wrote...

I learned blood magic in DAO by telling the Demon to leave before I got nasty, simultaneously freeing Conner and gaining another weapon against the blight.

So how was I evil????

What a nice way to put it.
What you did was to strike a bargain with the demon that she would leave for the time being and teach you blood magic in return for turning a blind eye on her.

[Zeroed55]

Sandy2009 wrote...
Interesting points. Let's look at lore first. I did not see any example of a good blood mage in the lore.

So Jowan, who is (given you let him) now protecting people under the alias 'Master Levyn' isn't what you would consider a 'good' Blood Mage?

Blood Magic isn't inherently evil. It's the caster. The preconception that Blood Magic is evil simply stems from the fact that most Blood Mages also dabble in demonology and utilize human sacrifice to fuel their powers.

While you could argue that Jowan's use of Blood Magic to escape the tower in the first place is a misuse of his powers, and I might agree to extent, the Chantry didn't help the situation in the first place by making the Circle itself an oppressive environment. One could argue Jowan was driven to use Blood Magic to escape out of desperation.

Modifié par Zeroed55, 03 mars 2011 - 09:56 .

[Kerilus]

Zeroed55 wrote...

Sandy2009 wrote...
Interesting points. Let's look at lore first. I did not see any example of a good blood mage in the lore.

So Jowan, who is (given you let him) now protecting people under the alias 'Master Levyn' isn't what you would consider a 'good' Blood Mage?

Blood Magic isn't inherently evil. It's the caster. The preconception that Blood Magic is evil simply stems from the fact that most Blood Mages also dabble in demonology and utilize human sacrifice to fuel their powers.

While you could argue that Jowan's use of Blood Magic to escape the tower in the first place is a misuse of his powers, and I might agree to extent, the Chantry didn't help the situation in the first place by making the Circle itself an oppressive environment. Jowan was driven to use Blood Magic to escape as an act of desperation.

I thought the origin of Blood magic is demon? While the use of such power can indeed be good, but the means in which to gain such power are undoubtedly evil.

[Zeroed55]

Because someone was bound to do it in response to your post, I might as well go ahead and quote the Dragon Age 2 description:

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably violent and self-destructive discipline, however, and the Blood Mage must be careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there."

Of course, making pacts with demons to grant you the knowledge of Blood Magic? That's a no-no. But that isn't the only way to gain the knowledge of Blood Magic. 

If I recall correctly, Jowan states that he researched Blood Magic and "dabbled" a bit. While that's a rather ambiguous explanation as to how he acquired the knowledge with which to use it, it is safe to assume that, because he never underwent the Harrowing himself, that he gained that knowledge simply through curious experimentation or deliberate intrigue, not due to a pact with a demon.

But then, we never really know.

[Kerilus]

Zeroed55 wrote...

If I recall correctly, Jowan states that he researched Blood Magic and "dabbled" a bit. While that's a rather ambiguous explanation as to how he acquired the knowledge with which to use it, it is safe to assume that, because he never underwent the Harrowing himself, that he gained that knowledge simply through curious experimentation or deliberate intrigue, not due to a pact with a demon.

But then, we never really know.

My guess is that one of the blood mages led by Uldred taught him the basics of learning blood magic, which also have to do with demons. Jowan does not seem to be intelligent enough to just figure how to use blood magic on his own, while many who're much superior to him have to make pact with demons to gain the knowledge.

[FDrage]

Zeroed55 wrote...



Of course, making pacts with demons to grant you the knowledge of Blood Magic? That's a no-no. But that isn't the only way to gain the knowledge of Blood Magic. 

If I recall correctly, Jowan states that he researched Blood Magic and "dabbled" a bit. While that's a rather ambiguous explanation as to how he acquired the knowledge with which to use it, it is safe to assume that, because he never underwent the Harrowing himself, that he gained that knowledge simply through curious experimentation or deliberate intrigue, not due to a pact with a demon.

But then, we never really know.

"research" can mean a lot and doesn't just apply to book reading. While he might not have had direct contact (if he had he probably wouldn't have come right out and admit it) that doesn't exclude the possibility of the original source being from a demon either through a "teacher" or the writer of a book have had contact with a demon.

So that doesn't exclude at all where the "original" knowledge for Bloodmagic came from. Was the ultimate source always a Demon and that knowledge got passed on by various teachers and therefore been removed to X degree from the Demon? that would still make it demon knowledge. Or did someone think of the connection of blood ... life ... power ... etc. think of it themselves and through experiments etc. (without demonic guidance ... conscious or subconscious ... of course) discovered the use of blood in regards to magic and its powers themselves? We as  players or we as in-game characters will never know.

But base on how people or players judge other things within the world of Feralden by its outcome one can do the same here as well, with some statistical applied variances of course.

And not undergone the Harrowing doesn't exclude him having had contact with a demon. The little boy in Redcliff surely hasn't undergone the Harrowing and yet had a close encounter with a Demon.

Granted in regards to Jowan we don't really know exactly ....

Kerilus wrote...

My guess is that one of the blood mages
led by Uldred taught him the basics of learning blood magic, which also
have to do with demons. Jowan does not seem to be intelligent enough to
just figure how to use blood magic on his own, while many who're much
superior to him have to make pact with demons to gain the
knowledge.

That is probably quite right ...

Modifié par FDrage, 03 mars 2011 - 10:20 .

[Zeroed55]

Kerilus wrote...
My guess is that one of the blood mages led by Uldred taught him the basics of learning blood magic, which also have to do with demons. Jowan does not seem to be intelligent enough to just figure how to use blood magic on his own, while many who're much superior to him have to make pact with demons to gain the knowledge.

That is very likely, as said before, Jowan was fairly vague in his explanation as to how he acquired his knowledge of Blood Magic. It is possible that he was tutored so to speak by one of Uldred's followers, or another extreme Libertarian in the Circle, who in turn may have learned from a pact with demons.

But, again as said, we don't really know.

EDIT: Ah yes, Connor is a great example, but Connor also didn't have any formal training to begin with with his powers; His sheer ignorance on the matter of demons (or as he called her the "bad lady") was more of a factor for the incident at Redcliffe then anything.

While not undergoing a Harrowing doesn't make you immune to demons, Jowan has at least had formal schooling about his powers and the dangers of using them due to his time in the Circle.

But, as said before, we don't really know the full story, Jowan only said he "dabbled"...which is quite rightfully vague. Could've been acquisition of those powers from curious research, from one of Uldred's supporters, or perhaps even a pact with demons.

But given Jowan's character, I somewhat doubt he acquired his Blood Magic through a deal with a demon; Jowan might be a tad reckless at times, but he is no Uldred, and most certainly not like any of the other Blood Mages the Warden encounters in Ferelden.

Modifié par Zeroed55, 03 mars 2011 - 10:27 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Zeroed55 wrote...
While you could argue that Jowan's use of Blood Magic to escape the tower in the first place is a misuse of his powers, and I might agree to extent, the Chantry didn't help the situation in the first place by making the Circle itself an oppressive environment. One could argue Jowan was driven to use Blood Magic to escape out of desperation.

Jowan dabbled in blood magic "to be a better mage". To impress his girlfriend.
He only wanted to escape after the templars found out.

[Ace Attorney]

Just because Blood Magic originally came from Demons, doesn't make it evil. Any Mage can be influenced by Fade spirits/demons, that is what the chantry is afraid of. How a tool is used is what determines whether it is good or not, not where it came from. If we judge things from their original source, wouldn't Wardens be considered evil because of using Darkspawn blood?

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 03 mars 2011 - 11:29 .

[Kerilus]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Just because Blood Magic originally came from Demons, doesn't make it evil. Any Mage can be influenced by Fade spirits/demons, that is what the chantry is afraid of. How a tool is used is what determines whether it is good or not, not where it came from. If we judge things from their original source, wouldn't Wardens be considered evil because of using Darkspawn blood?

Using Darkspawn blood involves killing Darkspawn. That is nothing like having a mutually beneficial pact with a demon.

[casedawgz]

Ziggeh wrote...

Zeroed55 wrote...

Eh. I take Kyle Katarn's stance on most powers, blood magic included:

"None of your powers are inherently good or evil. It's how you use them that counts."

He said that about The Force?

Yeah, he was a noted practitioner of Force lightning even as a light sider.

[FDrage]

Kerilus wrote...

Vicious wrote...

I learned blood magic in DAO by telling the Demon to leave before I got nasty, simultaneously freeing Conner and gaining another weapon against the blight.

So how was I evil????

What a nice way to put it.
What you did was to strike a bargain with the demon that she would leave for the time being and teach you blood magic in return for turning a blind eye on her.

"Timebeing" the important part of it ... didn't teh conversation or the epiloge suggest that the demon returned at a later stage? So epiloge being "considered" rumours .. who knows.

casedawgz wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Zeroed55 wrote...

Eh. I take Kyle Katarn's stance on most powers, blood magic included:

"None of your powers are inherently good or evil. It's how you use them that counts."

He said that about The Force?

Yeah, he was a noted practitioner of Force lightning even as a light sider.

a bit off-topic ... but considering the "end of the Yusan-Vong Conflict  Serious" (the unifying force) and the follow up Serious (Dark Nest  triology and Lagacy of the Force) I think  while Luke initially came to a simialr conclusion, mainly after  discussions with Jacen, he came again to a much less "balanced" view  towards the end of the Legacy series" .. .not completly back to the  beginning of Light versus Dark but a lot less neutral then in the  "Unifying Force" and what KKs Quote is there.



edit: I wish the forums wouldn't mess up a post when "copy & paste" it so often

Modifié par FDrage, 03 mars 2011 - 12:35 .

[Kerilus]

FDrage wrote...

Kerilus wrote...

Vicious wrote...

I learned blood magic in DAO by telling the Demon to leave before I got nasty, simultaneously freeing Conner and gaining another weapon against the blight.

So how was I evil????

What a nice way to put it.
What you did was to strike a bargain with the demon that she would leave for the time being and teach you blood magic in return for turning a blind eye on her.

"Timebeing" the important part of it ... didn't teh conversation or the epiloge suggest that the demon returned at a later stage? So epiloge being "considered" rumours .. who knows.

Exactly. I guess some people just don't pay enough attention.

[0rz0]

"Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him."

Blood magic is all about control I think (look at the skills in Origins), therefore in a direct conflict with this. I guess that's why it's considered evil.

[The Lesser Evil]

Kerilus wrote...

Vicious wrote...

I learned blood magic in DAO by telling the Demon to leave before I got nasty, simultaneously freeing Conner and gaining another weapon against the blight.

So how was I evil????

What a nice way to put it.
What you did was to strike a bargain with the demon that she would leave for the time being and teach you blood magic in return for turning a blind eye on her.

No, that's not what he did. You can learn Blood Magic from the Desire Demon AND force her to leave Connor. It's what I did on my Mage playthrough as well.

It's simply a matter of picking the right options and having high enough coercion:

1) Pick "(Intimidate) How about you leave and I do not destroy you." 
2) Pick "(Intimidate) On the contrary, I believe you can offer more."
3) Pick "Arcane secrets. I want to know specialized blood magic."

There's no striking a bargain here, you just tell it like it is and be done with it. Arl Eamon might ask if you've noticed something strange about Connor during last part of the game, but Arl Eamon is a buggy bastard who can ask that even if the Desire Demon was destroyed. Connor's possession won't be mentioned in the epilogue if the above options are chosen.

Modifié par The Lesser Evil, 03 mars 2011 - 01:01 .

[TEWR]

leggywillow wrote...

As a gamer, I had a weird experience with the "corrupting" side of blood magic. 

My Surana that I'm taking through Origins to pass the time until next Tuesday is a blood mage.  (It was mostly for role-playing purposes, since she's a squishy caster not a BM/AW combo so I feel as if I'm not using it to the maximum.)  The only blood magic spell I usually use is Blood Wound, because it's just unbelievably cool, plus she isn't actually hurting any innocents to do that.  It's her own blood used to wound things trying to kill her.  She never wanted to use it to control others or hurt innocents.

But then I found myself in a tight spot... health almost gone, no health potions.  I used Blood Sacrifice and took the very last of Zevran's health to save myself.  As the player, it felt uncomfortable.  My Surana and I had started out with innocent intentions but were ultimately tempted by the darker side of blood magic.

I guess this doesn't tie into the discussion much, but it added a nice little unintentional twist to my role-playing.  I was also surprised by how it affected me as the gamer... I truly felt a bit horrified by what I'd done.  Silly, but interesting.

why didn't you just use the Heal spell instead from the Creation tree?

[Kerilus]

The Lesser Evil wrote...

Kerilus wrote...

Vicious wrote...

I learned blood magic in DAO by telling the Demon to leave before I got nasty, simultaneously freeing Conner and gaining another weapon against the blight.

So how was I evil????

What a nice way to put it.
What you did was to strike a bargain with the demon that she would leave for the time being and teach you blood magic in return for turning a blind eye on her.

No, that's not what he did. You can learn Blood Magic from the Desire Demon AND force her to leave Connor. It's what I did on my Mage playthrough as well.

It's simply a matter of picking the right options and having high enough coercion:

1) Pick "(Intimidate) How about you leave and I do not destroy you." 
2) Pick "(Intimidate) On the contrary, I believe you can offer more."
3) Pick "Arcane secrets. I want to know specialized blood magic."

There's no striking a bargain here, you just tell it like it is and be done with it. Arl Eamon might ask if you've noticed something strange about Connor during last part of the game, but Arl Eamon is a buggy bastard who can ask that even if the Desire Demon was destroyed. Connor's possession won't be mentioned in the epilogue if the above options are chosen.

Interesting. I didn't know that.

[The Lesser Evil]

Kerilus wrote...

The Lesser Evil wrote...

No, that's not what he did. You can learn Blood Magic from the Desire Demon AND force her to leave Connor. It's what I did on my Mage playthrough as well.

It's simply a matter of picking the right options and having high enough coercion:

1) Pick "(Intimidate) How about you leave and I do not destroy you." 
2) Pick "(Intimidate) On the contrary, I believe you can offer more."
3) Pick "Arcane secrets. I want to know specialized blood magic."

There's no striking a bargain here, you just tell it like it is and be done with it. Arl Eamon might ask if you've noticed something strange about Connor during last part of the game, but Arl Eamon is a buggy bastard who can ask that even if the Desire Demon was destroyed. Connor's possession won't be mentioned in the epilogue if the above options are chosen.

Interesting. I didn't know that.

Since you don't actually KILL the demon there's no guarantee that she'll definitely never return, but that's no different from intimidating her into leaving without learning Blood Magic in the process.

But it does show that you don't HAVE to consort with demons to learn Blood Magic. Hell, Jowan learned what he knew from the books on Blood Magic in the Circle library (that are removed and put in Irving's office in the Mage Origin), and books are hardly demonic. :happy:

[Kerilus]

How do you know that he learnt blood magic from books in the library?
Regardless, the source of blood magic is demon, even though the user may put it in good use..

[FDrage]

The Lesser Evil wrote...
Since you don't actually KILL the demon there's no guarantee that she'll definitely never return, but that's no different from intimidating her into leaving without learning Blood Magic in the process.

But it does show that you don't HAVE to consort with demons to learn Blood Magic. Hell, Jowan learned what he knew from the books on Blood Magic in the Circle library (that are removed and put in Irving's office in the Mage Origin), and books are hardly demonic. :happy:

so where did you get the knowledge from then ? Granted you don't have to consort (as in terms of striking a mutual beneficial (or so) agreement ) but the knowledge still comes from the demon. Same thing with books ... while the book is not demonic or written by a demon that still doesn't mean that the knowledge about blood magic does not come from demon and therefoer is tainted by it. Even if it is removed from the demon ecnounter by endless degree (aka handed down throgh various ages by written and non written means). Same thing if the mage in Warden's Keep (forgot his name) tortoured (or so it seemed) gray warden to see how blood can help even more. 100 years later you might get that knowledge taught by a mage how learned if from other mages etc,. While it might be long lost and forgotten on how that knowledge was optained it still means the knowledge was optained by the vary same means in the first place and therefore is "tainted" by it ... regardless of when the actuall knowledge transfer to that mage happened.

Did Jowan actually say he "learned it" from books? or did he say "reaseached" ... which makes it just as logical or more so that he learned it from one of the many blood mages or Uldred (not even sure we know when Uldred made the packed with the Demon)) that you see aplenty in the Mage Tower Sequences.  v:)

[Kerethos]

I'm obviously biased here, I mean look at my signature - and I don't mean the funny song about CoD, but if I where to give some examples of how Blood Magic has helped, or even saved the world, then I'd pick:

• Grey Wardens - The Joining is damn well pure blood magic, and it saved the world 5 times so far.
• Golems - While the process itself is horrible, it saved the dwarves from being wiped out. Without Blood Magic there'd be no Orzammar, and perhaps no Kal'Sharok.
• Phylacteries - Allowing templars to track down maleficars.

Yes, there's a negative side to the whole phylactery thing, but that's more due to the way mages are treated and has little to do with the magic used (The magic is just an efficient tracking system).

It's also been implied that Blood Magic, when used to bind a spirit to a body, can be used to prevent death or even revive someone that's died. It's never been forced in the game, as both times (in the case of Wynne and possibly Anders) it's been done out of free will by the spirit of faith and the spirit of Justice. I believe Blood Magic can be used for good, and that it's not inherently evil. Fireballs and lightning kill people too, probably a hell of a lot more then blood magic does, and both are open to abuse - that doesn't make either of them inherently evil.

[Kerethos]

Kerilus wrote...

How do you know that he learnt blood magic from books in the library?
Regardless, the source of blood magic is demon, even though the user may put it in good use..

There's an empty shelf in the Circle Library, and the books from it are found in Irving's office. They are about Blood Magic, and when used gives the Codex Entry about Blood Magic. Irving say's that he's been advised that it isn't the best idea to keep them where any apprentice can read them, if you ask him about the books.

[Lotion Soronarr]

To nitpick a bit:
I believe that David Said the Phylacteries can be viewed/seen as Blood Magic. Interesting that Morrigan uses he same choice of words for the Dark Ritual.
That doesn't mean they necessarily are blood magic.

[Kerethos]

It's a question of definition. The Chantry doesn't want to admit its Blood Magic, but it is. And Morrigan is more up front about it if you've got a Blood Mage in the party, saying that it is Blood Magic, but that hasn't stopped you before, so it shouldn't do so now.

[wcholcombe]

Strata guide states blood magic is corrupting and eventually all blood mages thirst for more power and power over others. It's evil.

1. Golems aren't bloodmagic. Dwarves can't use magic.
2. Joining and philacteries aren't bloodmagic either. Neither uses blood as a power source. Just because blood is involved doesn't make it bloodmagic