500 réponses à ce sujet

[Lirea Dragonage]

Using your own life force to fuel blood magic to me isn't "evil" - it's your life to do with what you will. I think the general idea of blood magic though is that it has some sort of addictive quality, the power it gives you makes you want more until eventually the individual begins to steal life from others. If you have the willpower you can use blood magic safely (whether you use it to do good or bad things is not the issue, you can do good or bad things with any magic or any weapon) Once you've started using blood magic could you stop? If you drain life from your enemies how far a leap is it to draining life from others? What is your excuse at that point? That you're using their lives for the greater good? I don't think anyone should be able to give that excuse when it comes to human lives ... which is why I always execute Loghain - I cannot forgive him for leaving those men to die even if he did it to save his own.
Nothing is black and white but I think blood magic can lead to an especially uncomfortable grey area. My characters often try to strive to be good - which is why I think my mageHawke will avoid blood magic because the potential for evil seems much greater and she would never be so arrogant as to think she could control such power without going to far.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Whos' definition? That's the important here.

Just because X might look like blood magic to you, doesn't mean it is. Are Phylacteries blood magic according to the Chantry? I'd guess not. But again, they're the ones who define what blood magic is in TheDas....

EDIT:
Didn't know that Morrigan actually confirms it. I always though the DR was itentionally left ambigous as to if it really is blood magic.

But that really shouldn't surprise me..given that is has to do with trapping souls and using a baby as a container.

[koshindan]

Blood magic is not inherently addictive, unlike what some people in this thread have suggested. The alternative, Lyrium, is however, and it has a negative effect on mental health.

[wcholcombe]

Dude the strategy guide said that blood magic is addictive

[Lotion Soronarr]

koshindan wrote...

Blood magic is not inherently addictive, unlike what some people in this thread have suggested. The alternative, Lyrium, is however, and it has a negative effect on mental health.

Not in that sense. Blood magic is incredibly tempting.

Now all kinds of power are equally tempting and corrupting.

Using your own blood to fuel spells? No, I don't see that as bad really.

Using the lives of other to REALLY fuel your spells? Exceptionally dangerous.

But Mind Control? Friggin forbidden territory. Don't even THINK about it.
IMHO, anyone who dabbles in mind control deserves to be killed on sight.
That thing is just waaaaaay too dangerou and tempting.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really?
You bring up fictional characters as trustworthy? And Jedi? They can influence, but it's no real mind control.

Except it illustrates that your opinion on the matter isn't a universal truth. We also have the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic in this canonical universe.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And no. That is not an oppinion. That IS logic. Cold, calculated, impassioante logic.

No, Lotion, it's an opinion - yours.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why do you trust a military of lyrium addicts who answer only to a religious order? I don't see why people should wouldn't trust blood mages who use their abilities to fight against the greatest threat against all civilization, as Duncan reveals in the Magi Origin.

Can templars mind control you? No.

TRUST. Keyword.
Normal peopel cannot affect your trust, your mind with their will.

If I trust a templar, it is because I came to that conclusion myself.

If I trust a mage, it could very well be because the mage froced me to trust him - it was not my conclusion to do so.

I'd trust a Grey Warden mage who uses blood magic over a templar, personally. I imagine there are others who would do the same. Again, your opinion about blood mages isn't a universal standard that everyone adheres to when Duncan counters the argument that blood magic is evil with the fact that Grey Wardens have used such magic.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Trusting anyone with mind control power is illogical and foolish.
Hence why such power should not be allowed.

So you think anyone who disagrees with you is a fool?

In this case? Yes.

Becase defying hte most basic logic is foollish by any definition of the word.

1+1=2. Don't expect me to consider aynone who claims otherwise a reasonable person.

A mathematical equation doesn't mirror your argument that's based entirely on your personal opinion. You're welcome to your opinion, but simply because people disagree with you doesn't make them fools.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 mars 2011 - 04:51 .

[Kerethos]

wcholcombe wrote...

Strata guide states Blood Magic is corrupting and eventually all blood mages thirst for more power and power over others. It's evil.

1. Golems aren't bloodmagic. Dwarves can't use magic.
2. Joining and philacteries aren't bloodmagic either. Neither uses blood as a power source. Just because blood is involved doesn't make it bloodmagic

• Yes, they are. Anything involving the transferring of a spirit, life/blood is Blood Magic. It's even confirmed in the dialogue in Origins when you confront Caridin that golems are created through Blood Magic.
• Actually, because it involves blood it’s Blood Magic, and that’s part of the reason why the Joining has to remain a secret - as it's technically illegal, even if the sacrifice is a necessity. The phylacteries are also technically illegal, but their usefulness outweighs it, and it's not really hurting anyone.

What is commonly counted as the evil acts of Blood Magic are such things as dominating the minds of others, summoning demons and using the life force of others to fuel your spells. Things that are all potentially dangerous, and can cause great destruction and suffering.

As we know summoning demons can cause the Veil to tear, leaving the area dangerous for everyone as demons will continue to pass into the world of the living. Not to mention that the demons have a chance of breaking free form the mages control, and by itself cause the loss of many innocent lives. But say that a mage does this, doesn't tear the Veil, and banishes the demons back after having saved the village. Is he suddenly evil and has to die for doing what he had to in order to save the village? He no doubt took a great risk, but he is not evil - he's a bloody hero (pun intended).

As for dominating the minds of others and using the life force of another to fuel your spells, I'd say it's actually not always evil. Generally speaking they are evil acts, but they can also be used for good and what I'd define as morally questionable. If a blood mage for example dominates the mind of an attacker, and makes it turn on his companions - that's not really any more evil that killing him with a fireball. Using it to dominate a ruler however, is likely so – unless he was an evil ruler that you made into a good and fair ruler through mind domination. And say that the mage is out of mana, has no lyrium potions, and a child is dying and in need of immediate healing. If he then drains some, not all, of the life force from himself, or another person to fuel the healing spell, then it's generally an act of good. Hurtful perhaps, but done with good intentions.

My point is that while Blood Magic can be used for evil, it's not evil in itself, any more then a sword, axe, a hammer or a scalpel. All can be used to cause great suffering, but they can also be used for good - as they are all tools. It's the user that's responsible for the actions, not the tool. A gun is not evil, dangerous sure, but it's the person who uses it on another living being in order to commit murder is evil. A shoe is not evil for kicking you in the nuts; the person doing the kicking is the evil one.

Modifié par Kerethos_, 03 mars 2011 - 04:03 .

[leggywillow]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

::Blood Sacrifice story snip::

why didn't you just use the Heal spell instead from the Creation tree?

For one thing, I think it was still charging.  Plus Blood Magic reduces healing effects by 90%, so it wouldn't have done much to help me survive the rest of the battle.

Modifié par leggywillow, 03 mars 2011 - 04:00 .

[MColes]

Blood magic is an easy path to power, much like the dark side.  HOWEVER, it isn't inherantly evil, nor are the people who use it.   But, to quote Abe Lincoln,

"Nearly all men can stand adversity.  But if you want to test a man's character, give him power."

Blood magic, and how it's used says more of our failings as individuals, than the ability. 

"Absolute power, corrupts absolutely."

[DKJaigen]

wcholcombe wrote...

Dude the strategy guide said that blood magic is addictive

cannot be considered lore accurate. btw most strategy guides are **** anyway.

Because of the chantry most knowledge about blood magic is gone. and demons now hold the most knowledge about blood magic but it doesn't necessarily comes solely from demons

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But Mind Control? Friggin forbidden territory. Don't even THINK about it.
IMHO, anyone who dabbles in mind control deserves to be killed on sight.
That thing is just waaaaaay too dangerou and tempting.

This almost sounds as if you had bad experience in this regard

I don't really see what's better at killing an enemy with a fireball or controlling his mind and make him attack my enemy (and his ally). Of course you can do very evil things if you can control people's minds, but you can do most of them even without mind control. A weapon can be more or less dangerous, but whether it is used to evil ends depends on the one who uses it, not the weapon itself. I personally think if any weapon is truely evil then they are weapons of mass destruction. Those which effects you cannot even calculate.

Let's take nuclear weapons. They will kill everyone in a huge area and contaminate the area for centuries. Men, women, children, even unborn. There is no way to use it in a civilized or controlled manner. If you use it, many innocents die, period. Yet most of the 'civilized' countries have them. They don't use them anymore, luckly, but they have them.

I am not sure if I rather want someone drop an atom bomb on my city where all my friends and family live or mind control me for a while. I mean you can use mind control in a precise manner. You can choose who you control and what you make them do. But if you let fire rain from the sky and burn down a whole city, there is no way for you to calculate who is going to die and who is going to live.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 mars 2011 - 04:47 .

[wcholcombe]

Um you do realize the lore sections of the collectors edition strat guides were written by the developers don't you .....

[wcholcombe]

Oh and also there is the fact that bloodmagic weakens the veil and makes it easier for demons to possess mages

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

Um you do realize the lore sections of the collectors edition strat guides were written by the developers don't you .....

Considering how the Epilogues for Anders and Justice are going to be rectonned to fit with DA2 if Justice didn't die and Anders did, as well as the recton with the Qunari now having horns, shows that things change. We also have information presented from the perspective of in-game groups, like the comments about the Arlathan elves being immortal when we have no historical information to prove one way or another.

wcholcombe wrote...

Oh and also there is the fact that bloodmagic weakens the veil and makes it easier for demons to possess mages

This openly contradicts the information from DA2 where it's said some mages prefer blood magic because it's not tied to the Veil or deals with spirits or demons.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 mars 2011 - 04:56 .

[AlexXIV]

I don't have any strategy guides, so they don't count for me. If any lore or knowledge can only be gained by buying guides then it will just be non existant for me and my playthroughs.

[Kerethos]

wcholcombe wrote...

Oh and also there is the fact that bloodmagic weakens the veil and makes it easier for demons to possess mages

Blood Magic doesn't weaken the Veil, traffic through the Veil weakens and eventually tears the Veil. Thus, summoning many demons in the same place weakens the Veil, as does a significant amount of death - thus why some old battlegrounds are haunted by undead, spirits and demons.

[Sandy2009]

Kerethos_ wrote...


[*]Actually, because it involves blood it’s Blood Magic, and that’s part of the reason why the Joining has to remain a secret - as it's technically illegal, even if the sacrifice is a necessity. The phylacteries are also technically illegal, but their usefulness outweighs it, and it's not really hurting anyone.[/list]What is commonly counted as the evil acts of Blood Magic are such things as dominating the minds of others, summoning demons and using the life force of others to fuel your spells. Things that are all potentially dangerous, and can cause great destruction and suffering.

As for dominating the minds of others and using the life force of another to fuel your spells, I'd say it's actually not always evil. Generally speaking they are evil acts, but they can also be used for good and what I'd define as morally questionable. If a blood mage for example dominates the mind of an attacker, and makes it turn on his companions - that's not really any more evil that killing him with a fireball. Using it to dominate a ruler however, is likely so – unless he was an evil ruler that you made into a good and fair ruler through mind domination. And say that the mage is out of mana, has no lyrium potions, and a child is dying and in need of immediate healing. If he then drains some, not all, of the life force from himself, or another person to fuel the healing spell, then it's generally an act of good. Hurtful perhaps, but done with good intentions.

[*]Joining remaining secret is again a point of contention. Do you really think it is such a big secret why grey wardens are better at fighting darkspawn then say ordinary millitary? There are 30,000 books in circle of magi and some very smart mages/templars in there. Do you think they can't figure out such a simple thing (considering this is fifth blight). I would assume even an apprentice from circle would know about - "Taint and its applications - theory and practice". . On the other hand killing the guy who does not want to join looks so funny. If you go to join an elite military group, look at their physical tests and decide you cannot do it, they just shoot you on the spot . This is how mafia behaves.

[TheCreeper]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering how the Epilogues for Anders and Justice are going to be rectonned to fit with DA2 if Justice didn't die and Anders did, as well as the recton with the Qunari now having horns, shows that things change. We also have information presented from the perspective of in-game groups, like the comments about the Arlathan elves being immortal when we have no historical information to prove one way or another.
.

Qunari having horns is not a retcon, it was hinted at in the codex in Origins.

[wcholcombe]

The endings aren't retcons as they aren't canon anyway. Also as previously discussed the plan all along has been for the qunari to have horns. I haven't seen the info from da2 on bloodmagic that you refer to, but it would have nothing to do with affecting the veil. It is entirely possible that bloodmagic not requiring a tie to the veil is.exactly what weakens it or attracts the demons to bloodmages.

[wcholcombe]

Also I am entirely dubious of the idea that bloodmagic doesn't require the veil. if this were true anyone could become a blooemage including tranquils

[TheCreeper]

Blood magic requires the veil I think, it just doesn't require the user to get favors with helpful spirits.

[AlexXIV]

wcholcombe wrote...

Also I am entirely dubious of the idea that bloodmagic doesn't require the veil. if this were true anyone could become a blooemage including tranquils

Maybe that's why it is forbidden.

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

The endings aren't retcons as they aren't canon anyway.

That defies the purpose of them being conclusions to the storyline. How are the endings written by the developers of the game not canical? I understand they're word of mouth, but you don't go from "dead" to "alive," and you don't go from having adventures for a few years to possessing the body of a dead comrade almost immediately.

wcholcombe wrote...

Also as previously discussed the plan all along has been for the qunari to have horns.

That must explain why none of the other Qunari we see ever had horns.

wcholcombe wrote...

I haven't seen the info from da2 on bloodmagic that you refer to, but it would have nothing to do with affecting the veil. It is entirely possible that bloodmagic not requiring a tie to the veil is.exactly what weakens it or attracts the demons to bloodmages.

This argument defies the entire statement of DA2 behind blood magic having no ties to the Veil and why some mages prefer it to magic that is directly tied to the Veil.

[wcholcombe]

Well only specialization requires spirits

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

Also I am entirely dubious of the idea that bloodmagic doesn't require the veil. if this were true anyone could become a blooemage including tranquils

Considering they're reduced to menial labor and crafting magical items, they seem to be little more than slaves than anything else. I doubt they have the agency to use blood magic.

wcholcombe wrote...

Well only specialization requires spirits

I'm not talking about the specialization, I'm talking about the DA2 entry about blood magic that states that some mages prefer it because it's the only magic that's truly free, and requires no deals from spirits or demons.