500 réponses à ce sujet

[Huntress]

1)They Joining remains secret because Grey Warden's do not share all the bit's that are need it, yes they need mages to help with the Vials of blood, thats all the mages know, how to weaken or make it strong, nothing also.

2)The Grey warden's mages ( mine at least) would not go back to the circle/chantry to teach others about it, the only thing she knows was: had archdemon blood, Darkspawn blood and magic spells were need it, wich spells? She doesn't know.

3) Thats how you keep secrets, and in the Ritual only way to get out is by joining or dieying, thats why Jory died, you can't stop a ritual.

[Mightyg]

Depends who you take the blood from.....

[TEWR]

leggywillow wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

::Blood Sacrifice story snip::

why didn't you just use the Heal spell instead from the Creation tree?

For one thing, I think it was still charging.  Plus Blood Magic reduces healing effects by 90%, so it wouldn't have done much to help me survive the rest of the battle.

Ah. should've done what I do in those situations. Run around like an idiot away from the enemies until Heal is fully charged, deactivate Blood Magic, then heal

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

Well only specialization requires spirits

Allow us to address this with the information about blood magic from DA2:

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

The beginning refers to the Tevinter Imperium and others who have abused this talent, but it also references that mages use blood magic not because they want to abuse the abiltiies of blood magic, but because they see it as the only form of magic that's "truly free."

[wcholcombe]

Ok, there is art for dao showing qunari with horns, and there is in game lore talking about why some qunari don't have horns.

As for the endings just like.the booms we have been told not to take them too literally sense dao came out. The books themselves don't even exist.

My comment about the veil is.what it is, in dao we were told.all magic comes.from a.players connection to the veil. If bloodmagic allows.magic.without the.veil, then anyone even tranquils,could be mages. If this is the case it could be the fact that it doesn't. Require the veil that attracts demons and potentially weakens the veil. Which yes both happen according to dao lore

[DKJaigen]

wcholcombe wrote...

Also I am entirely dubious of the idea that bloodmagic doesn't require the veil. if this were true anyone could become a blooemage including tranquils

Magic  needs a connection to the fade . bloodmagic is no different. only the energies they use (life energy) is on the material realm while normal mages draw mana and energy from the fade thus the bloodmage needs less contact to the fade then a standard mage.

And while we are discussing bloodmages, notice that spirithealers are the most liable to possion as they have to work with spirits to gain the healing abilities. unfortunately demons can masquerade as spirits.

Modifié par DKJaigen, 03 mars 2011 - 06:18 .

[koshindan]

DKJaigen wrote...


And while we are discussing bloodmages, notice that spirithealers are the most liable to possion as they have to work with spirits to gain the healing abilities. unfortunately demons can masquerade as spirits.

Even more so in that it seems that mages can corrupt otherwise "good" spirits, as in the case of Anders/Justice. 

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

Ok, there is art for dao showing qunari with horns, and there is in game lore talking about why some qunari don't have horns.

Are there any horned Qunari in DA:O? DA:A? Then I see it as a recton when the only reference to them is as bronze-skinned giants, not horned bronze-skinned giants.

wcholcombe wrote...

As for the endings just like.the booms we have been told not to take them too literally sense dao came out. The books themselves don't even exist.

You mean the boons, I assume? The Magi boon was turned down or bugged for one ruler, the elven Bann boon was bugged for one ruler, and the other boons happened since the Chancellor is referenced in the Epilogue just like being the King or Queen is. Dismissing the Anders and Justice Epilogue because it contradicts what they're doing now in DA2 reeks of recton to me.

wcholcombe wrote...

My comment about the veil is.what it is, in dao we were told.all magic comes.from a.players connection to the veil. If bloodmagic allows.magic.without the.veil, then anyone even tranquils,could be mages. If this is the case it could be the fact that it doesn't. Require the veil that attracts demons and potentially weakens the veil. Which yes both happen according to dao lore 

The tranquil are little more than slaves who do menial tasks and craft magical items. They don't seem to have the agency to do much on their own afford. You also haven't provided any information to contradict the DA2 information about blood magic.

[Inverness Moon]

megaz635 wrote...

Its taught by demons.

Demons are evil.

Do you know what argumentum ad hominem is?

[FRZN]

Inverness Moon wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

Its taught by demons.

Demons are evil.

Do you know what argumentum ad hominem is?

^this, and Jowain learned blood magic from a book.

[TEWR]

Ok I don't know so much about Golems being blood magic, that's a bit iffy, but I won't try and say it is or isn't. That's another topic for another day.

The Joining however, IS Blood Magic. I can keep saying the same fact over and over again that Finn says using both blood and magic is, a grey area of blood magic. Blood Magic doesn't have to inflict harm on another person. That's just how the Tevinter Imperium used it because they saw themselves as gods.

Jowan however, is a blood mage who did not abuse his power. The only time(s) he's ever used blood magic was when he was forced to defend himself and Lily, though that unfortunately backfired. Poor sod.... anyway. Second time is if you choose to sacrifice Isolde. Did he want to do that? No not really, but there was little else that could be done unless you say you'll travel to the Circle. Or if you release him, he operates under the alias Levyn, trying to atone for his mistakes. Jowan is one of the few good blood mages we've seen.

Avernus is a grey area himself.

I fail to see what the topic of horned and hornless Qunari have to do with a Blood Mage. Their treatment of mages is relevant. The Qunari themselves, not really. But Armaas was a Horned Qunari, he ripped out his horns though. At least that's what the Dragon Age Wiki says.

and what's this about the boons being bugged?

[Sandy2009]

Huntress wrote...

1)They Joining remains secret because Grey Warden's do not share all the bit's that are need it, yes they need mages to help with the Vials of blood, thats all the mages know, how to weaken or make it strong, nothing also.

2)The Grey warden's mages ( mine at least) would not go back to the circle/chantry to teach others about it, the only thing she knows was: had archdemon blood, Darkspawn blood and magic spells were need it, wich spells? She doesn't know.

3) Thats how you keep secrets, and in the Ritual only way to get out is by joining or dieying, thats why Jory died, you can't stop a ritual.

Well the mages in circle have enough intellect to figure out medicine sciences (healing spells), control forces of nature and so on. I would think they could have picked up few tainted wolfs from kochari wilds (just like you did) and did some research on taint.

Secondly if more people know about taint and grey wardens, more people may join willingly increasing the strenght of organization. Everybody benefits. Right now Duncan goes around forcing convicts to join his cause. If more people can see scary archdeamon in their dreams, more people may be inclined to fight him. . So I am not convinced there is need to keep it a secret.

My other party members can fight darkspawn and archdeamon as good as me. So what do I get extra for having the taint (that they don't have).

[Syagre]

The DAO Codex entry states that the practice of blood magic increases the chances of tearing open the veil, and let demons in the waking world. That's what happened at Warden's Keep, for one thing.
I think that is why blood magic is commonly considered "bad".

As for the taint and the grey wardens, I'm not sure more people would join willingly if they knew about that. I don't think that the certaintly of meeting your end in the deep roads before you become 50 y.o. is an appealing prospect.

Modifié par Syagre, 03 mars 2011 - 06:23 .

[TEWR]

Sandy2009 wrote...

Huntress wrote...

1)They Joining remains secret because Grey Warden's do not share all the bit's that are need it, yes they need mages to help with the Vials of blood, thats all the mages know, how to weaken or make it strong, nothing also.

2)The Grey warden's mages ( mine at least) would not go back to the circle/chantry to teach others about it, the only thing she knows was: had archdemon blood, Darkspawn blood and magic spells were need it, wich spells? She doesn't know.

3) Thats how you keep secrets, and in the Ritual only way to get out is by joining or dieying, thats why Jory died, you can't stop a ritual.

Well the mages in circle have enough intellect to figure out medicine sciences (healing spells), control forces of nature and so on. I would think they could have picked up few tainted wolfs from kochari wilds (just like you did) and did some research on taint.

Secondly if more people know about taint and grey wardens, more people may join willingly increasing the strenght of organization. Everybody benefits. Right now Duncan goes around forcing convicts to join his cause. If more people can see scary archdeamon in their dreams, more people may be inclined to fight him. . So I am not convinced there is need to keep it a secret.

My other party members can fight darkspawn and archdeamon as good as me. So what do I get extra for having the taint (that they don't have).

once again, you're making your Warden everyone else's. As far as I can recall, Duncan gives the City Elf, the choice to either rot in a dungeon or WILLINGLY go with him. If you say no, he conscripts you because you've shown traits that all Grey Wardens should have. Strength, compassion, honesty, etc. Duncan doesn't force convicts to join. What about the Human Noble Warden? Is he a convict? No, he was betrayed by an old family friend. The Dwarf Noble? Assuming you don't kill Trian, that is. No, you were unjustly accused of fratricide and sent into the Deep Roads, the Grey Wardens being your only hope of survival. The Dwarf Commoner is also given the option to go or stay, and if you stay Duncan invokes the right of conscription, because you make a choice that only a fool (or someone going for some lulz) would make. "No I want to stay here and die instead of being alive fighting the Darkspawn".

[TEWR]

Syagre wrote...

The DAO Codex entry states that the practice of blood magic increases the chances of tearing open the veil, and let demons in the waking world. That's what happened at Warden's Keep, for one thing.
I think that is why blood magic is commonly considered "bad".

No blood magic gives the ability to tear the Veil, meaning a Blood Mage could do that. It doesn't mean it will happen, only if a Blood Mage decides to do it. But Warden's Keep experienced so much death and blood the Veil would've been torn anyway had Avernus done nothing.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I fail to see what the topic of horned and hornless Qunari have to do with a Blood Mage. Their treatment of mages is relevant. The Qunari themselves, not really. But Armaas was a Horned Qunari, he ripped out his horns though. At least that's what the Dragon Age Wiki says.

Are you talking about the unofficial DA Wiki? To be fair, mistakes can happen when fans write the information on the wiki page. The unofficial DA Wiki incorrectly stated the Dalish boon was canon for everyone when it was a bug and incorrectly stated that the Magi boon happened when it was turned down. Both of these mistakes have been corrected recently. The Abomination entry still has the mistake of incorrectly stating that anyone can become an abomination when only mages can. I agree that there's little point in dragging out discussion about the horned Qunari in a thread about blood magic, though. I also think you bring up some good points about Jowan becoming Master Levyn and the Joining being possible because of blood magic.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and what's this about the boons being bugged?

The elven Bann boons don't properly show up in the Epilogue because the flags don't properly set, which is why some never see the elven Bann slides (where the Grey Warden as the new Bann turns the Denerim Alienage into a prosperous place, but it causes resentment from the humans, or where Shianni is murdered by humans as the new Bann). I believe it's the same problem with the Magi boon if you ask King Alistair for the boon, because the flags aren't properly set, and Irving will never thank the Warden for freeing them from "their shackles." It is properly recognized if you ask Queen Anora for the boon (which worked for me when Loghain was spared while Alistair was married to Anora with a hardened personality).

[TEWR]

I guess it could be a mistake. Still it makes sense, given that Tal-Vashoth renounce the ways of the Qun philosophy.

And I knew some of the epilogue slides were bugged, but I didn't know about those being some of the bugs.... huh....

[Xilizhra]

Can we ever see the elven bann epilogue slides, then?

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I guess it could be a mistake. Still it makes sense, given that Tal-Vashoth renounce the ways of the Qun philosophy.

I believe the devs provided it as an explanation for why people of the "Qunari" race (like Armaas, who is technically Tal Vasoth but of the same race as Sten) wouldn't have horns, so it's entirely possible. I'm curious about discovering more lore about the Qunari in DA2, and what role Qunari invaders might play in the Free Marches since it looks like they're being set up as an antagonist to our protagonist Hawke (especially if an apostate Hawke is going to become the Champion).

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I knew some of the epilogue slides were bugged, but I didn't know about those being some of the bugs.... huh....

It's surprising that the devs never corrected the bugs with the boons, especially since we can import our decisions into DA2. I guess I'll find out what sort of world DA2 is with an elven mage Hero of Ferelden who asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence. I'm curious to see if the Chantry turning down the boon plays a role in the Circle of Kirkwall or with an apostate Hawke or Bethany (or even Anders, who oddly never once mentions the boon despite being a mage who keeps running away from the Circle).

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Can we ever see the elven bann epilogue slides, then?

If you're on the PC, ejoslin created an unofficial patch for the bugged elven Bann boon. As for the reason behind the bug, I believe it's tied to which ruler you ask the boon for (she mentioned it was Alistair, which makes it the same problem as the the Magi boon), but she also mentioned there are bugged elven Bann slides for Soris and an unnamed elven Bann (which I assume is generic).

In case you're curious (and I added the link to her page so you can download her program that will fix the bugged elven Bann slides if you're on the PC):

ejoslin wrote...

The epilogues weren't scrapped, they have a couple of bugs (understandable ones, actually -- I won't bore you with the technical details unless asked) that prevent them from firing. However, I deliberately chose an example that is in the vanilla game -- where you choose someone as a bann, but not the warden or Shianni; that one DOES appear. In that one, the new Bann is stoned to death, and no new Bann is appointed. Hence, the position is not for the family -- just for the newly appointed noble.

The Dalish slide appearing for everyone is a bug, and doesn't happen if Zathrien is keeper. Someone missed setting the condition of the dalish boon if whatsherface is keeper though it is in the scripting comments.

If you click on Zevran Dialog Fix in my sig, there's a list of the bugs on the front page there.

And she mentions that the elven Warden becoming Bann of the Alienage can be bugged if Alistair hands the boon over, instead of Anora:

ejoslin wrote...

Nameless Bann IS an option, and is not bugged. you can choose warden, Shianni, or someone else (nameless Bann). If you choose someone else, you get the epilogue where they're stoned to death. Soris, I can't tell you as i can't open the post_coronation file (it's corrupted in the toolset and in the core resource files). The reason why the other epilogues don't appear is twofold -- the flag isn't set for warden as bann if Alistair grants the boon (it works for Anora if the fix I'm about to describe in implemented) and again, since the file where that flag is set is corrupted, I can't do anything about it. The other problem is the flag used to go to those slides is EPI_SOMEONE_IS_BANN -- which is the flag for, well, if you choose someone else for bann (which is why that particular condition works in the vanilla game). I wrote a new flag so that any of the city elf boon flags will go to those slides.

As far as the Dalish, someone just didn't set the condition for the flag showing, so it shows for everyone. It's not that a flag is set or cleared -- it's just that it got missed. It's in the scripting comments that that slide should only go for the Dalish boon.

As far as DA2 and such -- if you make yourself Bann in the city elf ending when talking to Alistair, my guess is it won't be registered. If you make Shianni bann or someone else bann or a warden Bann when the boon is from Anora, it will be registered.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 03 mars 2011 - 06:44 .

[TEWR]

The Qunari I believe are stranded in Kirkwall, though whether they'll be antagonistic or not is beyond me.

[Dasher1010]

While evil mages are more likely to look into blood magic since it's incredibly powerful magic. There are some good applications.

Regarding demons, yes they are evil but would you really rather allow evil spirits like that to roam free or would you rather bind it to your will and force it to serve you where it can't cause any trouble you don't want it to. Plus even if the demon usurps control, Wynne still managed to be a genuinely good person and the spirit was benevolent since demons feed on emotions and Wynne was pure of heart (although Wynne wasn't a blood mage).

As far as controlling people's minds, that's a bit more grey but if somebody attacks you and you could mind control them to make them leave you alone so you both get out alive, is that really a bad thing?

Blood magic is nothing more than a tool, it's neither good nor bad but it's certainly easier to abuse than other forms of magic. For instance, summoning a pride demon to attack your enemies is not only probably overkill, but doing so might allow it to either start influencing you or cause it to attack innocent people so blood mages definitely need more control over themselves than other types of mages do.

[Sandy2009]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As far as I can recall, Duncan gives the City Elf, the choice to either rot in a dungeon or WILLINGLY go with him. If you say no, he conscripts you because you've shown traits that all Grey Wardens should have. Strength, compassion, honesty, etc.

I don't know if you belong to one of the writer's group and had any influence on writing or you are just a player (like me). However, you are looking at the story from just one angle. Look at the other angle too, you will see other side of story.

What you have described is not called a choice (even by a teenager, let alone an adult). Let me give you example of choice from literature. In LoTR, in that meeting when they are discussing what to do with the ring, Frodo just sits at the back. They started screeming at each other, Frodo is not involved in anything. Then he offers to carry the ring to Mt. Doom if somebody can show him the way. He choses to do this from his sweet will, not because somebody offered him either/or proposition (both of which are sh*ty propositions). In many ways, his choice is also his strength when he finds himself in impossible circumstances.

One more example. Neo (matrix) was offered red/blue pills by Morpheus. If he takes the other pill, he will just wake up in his bed as if nothing happened. So out of his own sweet will, Neo choses the life he gets. Morpheus even warns him "I only offer the truth... nothing more".

This game is linear and if you are offered any real choice at the time of joining, players may chose the easier way. The problem is that game ends right there, there is nothing more to explore, nothing to do. It is a problem of linear game design, you have to push the player through. First time when I played the game, Duncan seemed more dangerous than any dark spawn I had met at that time. He commits murder in front of your eyes and then want me to drink poison. He looks and behaves lika a mafia chief.

Don't be surprised different people look at the same story from different angles.

Modifié par Sandy2009, 03 mars 2011 - 09:59 .

[Lady Bibble]

As an avid WoW player (please don't hate me), I've always assosiated Blood Magic with the Warlock class (Basically, mages that only cast curses, shadow,  and fire spells, and use demons as pets)   Sure, they aren't usually celebrated in the annals of lore for doing wonderful things (In fact, one of the most notorious bad guys in lore, Gul'dan, was a warlock), but your character could very well be a nice person.   And although they're usually looked on with suspicion, people realize that they have their place.  


The DA world is a world where they haven't realized the potential of Blood Magic, because they're too afraid of what it will lead to.  Last time it was openly and popularly practiced,  the Darkspawn were created.   Heck, the Chantry still hasn't gotten over its terror of just plain old magic.

[TEWR]

Sandy2009 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As far as I can recall, Duncan gives the City Elf, the choice to either rot in a dungeon or WILLINGLY go with him. If you say no, he conscripts you because you've shown traits that all Grey Wardens should have. Strength, compassion, honesty, etc.

I don't know if you belong to one of the writer's group and had any influence on writing or you are just a player (like me). However, you are looking at the story from just one angle. Look at the other angle too, you will see other side of story.

What you have described is not called a choice (even by a teenager, let alone an adult). Let me give you example of choice from literature. In LoTR, in that meeting when they are discussing what to do with the ring, Frodo just sits at the back. They started screeming at each other, Frodo is not involved in anything. Then he offers to carry the ring to Mt. Doom if somebody can show him the way. He choses to do this from his sweet will, not because somebody offered him either/or proposition (both of which are sh*ty propositions). In many ways, his choice is also his strength when he finds himself in impossible circumstances.

One more example. Neo (matrix) was offered red/blue pills by Morpheus. If he takes the other pill, he will just wake up in his bed as if nothing happened. So out of his own sweet will, Neo choses the life he gets. Morpheus even warns him "I only offer the truth... nothing more".

This game is linear and if you are offered any real choice at the time of joining, players may chose the easier way. The problem is that game ends right there, there is nothing more to explore, nothing to do. It is a problem of linear game design, you have to push the player through. First time when I played the game, Duncan seemed more dangerous than any dark spawn I had met at that time. He commits murder in front of your eyes and then want me to drink poison. He looks and behaves lika a mafia chief.

Don't be surprised different people look at the same story from different angles.

actually, I'm a writer myself. not a fanfic writer, as I'm writing my own story. but that's for another day.
 
I am looking at it from all the angles. Jory attacked Duncan first and Duncan had to defend himself (though I always take jory's weapons and armor, so how he got that longsword is beyond me). Was it murder? yes, but justifiable murder. Do I feel bad for Jory? Yea but he had been told like 5 times that there was no turning back and he said a few times that he would see it through too. Duncan even said he felt bad for killing Jory and that he didn't want to do it.

As for the choice argument, I have to say this. Not saying you don't know what a choice is, but the definition of a choice is deciding which of multiple options to pick based on the merits of each one. So it is very much a choice for the City Elf. Is it a ****ty and very locked choice? Yes, but still a choice nonetheless.

Also, I've never seen The Matrix movies. I think I only have one of the movies, and I never really watched it. Meh...