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Is blood magic inherently "bad" ?


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#326
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sandy2009 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As far as I can recall, Duncan gives the City Elf, the choice to either rot in a dungeon or WILLINGLY go with him. If you say no, he conscripts you because you've shown traits that all Grey Wardens should have. Strength, compassion, honesty, etc.


I don't know if you belong to one of the writer's group and had any influence on writing or you are just a player (like me). However, you are looking at the story from just one angle. Look at the other angle too, you will see other side of story.

What you have described is not called a choice (even by a teenager, let alone an adult). Let me give you example of choice from literature. In LoTR, in that meeting when they are discussing what to do with the ring, Frodo just sits at the back. They started screeming at each other, Frodo is not involved in anything. Then he offers to carry the ring to Mt. Doom if somebody can show him the way. He choses to do this from his sweet will, not because somebody offered him either/or proposition (both of which are sh*ty propositions). In many ways, his choice is also his strength when he finds himself in impossible circumstances.

One more example. Neo (matrix) was offered red/blue pills by Morpheus. If he takes the other pill, he will just wake up in his bed as if nothing happened. So out of his own sweet will, Neo choses the life he gets. Morpheus even warns him "I only offer the truth... nothing more".

This game is linear and if you are offered any real choice at the time of joining, players may chose the easier way. The problem is that game ends right there, there is nothing more to explore, nothing to do. It is a problem of linear game design, you have to push the player through. First time when I played the game, Duncan seemed more dangerous than any dark spawn I had met at that time. He commits murder in front of your eyes and then want me to drink poison. He looks and behaves lika a mafia chief. Image IPB

Don't be surprised different people look at the same story from different angles.


actually, I'm a writer myself. not a fanfic writer, as I'm writing my own story. but that's for another day.
 
I am looking at it from all the angles. Jory attacked Duncan first and Duncan had to defend himself (though I always take jory's weapons and armor, so how he got that longsword is beyond me). Was it murder? yes, but justifiable murder. Do I feel bad for Jory? Yea but he had been told like 5 times that there was no turning back and he said a few times that he would see it through too. Duncan even said he felt bad for killing Jory and that he didn't want to do it.

As for the choice argument, I have to say this. Not saying you don't know what a choice is, but the definition of a choice is deciding which of multiple options to pick based on the merits of each one. So it is very much a choice for the City Elf. Is it a ****ty and very locked choice? Yes, but still a choice nonetheless.

Also, I've never seen The Matrix movies. I think I only have one of the movies, and I never really watched it. Meh...


Jory doesn't actually attack Duncan.  He refuses to drink the taint-shot, backs away and draws his sword when Duncan advances on him.

#327
TEWR

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Jory swung first

#328
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jory swung first


Hmmm.  True.

But it can also be interpreted as him being provoked.

I personally don't see it as an "attack" per se, but more of an attempt to back out of the ritual.  Meaning, he didn't want to fight anyone, just wanted to leave.

#329
TEWR

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start around the five minute mark. Jory actually drew his sword before Duncan even turned to face him. Jory was never provoked into attacking. He made the choice to become a Grey Warden and then chickened out. Shame too, he wasn't that bad of a warrior so he might've been a decent Warden. I'd say he provoked himself, if that makes sense to you.

But if that's how you personally see it, that's fine with me. I see Duncan as being justified, and Jory not thinking things through. He could've asked that if he died in the Joining that his wife and child be taken care of. Though that would probably mean the Wardens would have to do that for everyone, but still he could've asked it. Being a Grey Warden means making sacrifices. Some are worse than others, but it's all for one common goal. To defeat the Darkspawn

#330
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



start around the five minute mark. Jory actually drew his sword before Duncan even turned to face him. Jory was never provoked into attacking. He made the choice to become a Grey Warden and then chickened out. Shame too, he wasn't that bad of a warrior so he might've been a decent Warden. I'd say he provoked himself, if that makes sense to you.

But if that's how you personally see it, that's fine with me. I see Duncan as being justified, and Jory not thinking things through. He could've asked that if he died in the Joining that his wife and child be taken care of. Though that would probably mean the Wardens would have to do that for everyone, but still he could've asked it. Being a Grey Warden means making sacrifices. Some are worse than others, but it's all for one common goal. To defeat the Darkspawn


Oh, believe me, I've played it several times, I know how it goes.

And yes, he draws first, and as you said, also swings first.  I do dispute the "attack" term - just because I don't think his intent was to fight anyone, more just to be allowed to leave - a threat he didn't want to carry out, if you will.

However, I completely agree with your second paragraph - Duncan was justified, because it was too late to back out.  Jory didn't think it through, and that was his problem.

#331
Sandy2009

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

actually, I'm a writer myself. not a fanfic writer, as I'm writing my own story. but that's for another day.
 
I am looking at it from all the angles. Jory attacked Duncan first and Duncan had to defend himself (though I always take jory's weapons and armor, so how he got that longsword is beyond me). Was it murder? yes, but justifiable murder. Do I feel bad for Jory? Yea but he had been told like 5 times that there was no turning back and he said a few times that he would see it through too. Duncan even said he felt bad for killing Jory and that he didn't want to do it.

As for the choice argument, I have to say this. Not saying you don't know what a choice is, but the definition of a choice is deciding which of multiple options to pick based on the merits of each one. So it is very much a choice for the City Elf. Is it a ****ty and very locked choice? Yes, but still a choice nonetheless.

Also, I've never seen The Matrix movies. I think I only have one of the movies, and I never really watched it. Meh...



First things first. How can you not watch matrix... OMG Image IPB. You are in for a treat... being a writer and all. That triology is considered by many to be the best hollywood ever did. The philosophy, the characters, implications, dialogues, all so memorable. You can get all the three movies for like $15. There are many web sites devoted to philosophy and story discussion... look around. I had to watch them few times to get every dialogue and fully understand them. In second movie the architect talks about choice... I will leave it at that.

I replayed the joining scene and my conscription scene again from saved game. Jory did not attack, he was backing away and he was afraid of what he saw, so started drawing his sword. Duncan killed him in two moves. When Duncan recruited me, he never mentioned anything about drinking poison... so it is a shock at the time to joining to see one man die. Let me ask you this - what made you think you will survive the poison? What was in your origin story to support any notion that you will survive that ritual? Like I said before, it is all shoved down your throat to move the story forward. Image IPB

#332
TEWR

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Jory not only drew his weapon first, but swung first too, and Duncan was forced to defend himself. Was it out of fear? yes. Did he know what he was in for, as far as not being able to turn back? Yes. Do I feel bad for Jory? Yes. Did he think things through? Nope. as my above post says

Also I never said anything that said I would survive the ritual (aside from the fact we're the main character so we have to survive, but that's irrelevant as it is as you said there for the linearity). However I did say that Duncan remarks upon you possessing the traits Grey Wardens should have, which can be taken by some to mean you would survive. Me, I just see it as a compliment.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 mars 2011 - 06:54 .


#333
Lotion Soronarr

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LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really?
You bring up fictional characters as trustworthy? And Jedi? They can influence, but it's no real mind control.


Except it illustrates that your opinion on the matter isn't a universal truth. We also have the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic in this canonical universe.


No, it doesn't illustrate that.
How fictional characters feel about fictional characters is irrelevant.
Just because people trust  professor X in the X-Men comics, doesn't mean that it is a sensible thing to do..it's a superhero comic for crying out loud.

Again, if professor X actuayll existed in real life., I'm willing to be everything that that same oppinion wouldn't last long.


Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And no. That is not an oppinion. That IS logic. Cold, calculated, impassioante logic.


No, Lotion, it's an opinion - yours.


No, it is logic. I dare you to defy it..deconstruct it logicly.

I have clearly pointed out the logical folly in trusting anyone with mind control.
You as of yet had had made no logical counter-claim.



Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Can templars mind control you? No.

TRUST. Keyword.
Normal peopel cannot affect your trust, your mind with their will.

If I trust a templar, it is because I came to that conclusion myself.

If I trust a mage, it could very well be because the mage froced me to trust him - it was not my conclusion to do so.


I'd trust a Grey Warden mage who uses blood magic over a templar, personally. I imagine there are others who would do the same. Again, your opinion about blood mages isn't a universal standard that everyone adheres to when Duncan counters the argument that blood magic is evil with the fact that Grey Wardens have used such magic.


What you would do is really not important. I'm not saying you CAN'T do that. I'm saying that it is fundamentaly illogical/stupid to do so.
But hey, people have been doing stupid things since the dawn of time...



LobselVith8 wrote...
A mathematical equation doesn't mirror your argument that's based entirely on your personal opinion. You're welcome to your opinion, but simply because people disagree with you doesn't make them fools.


It mirors it perfectly. Again, basic logic.
Which you have not coutnered.

If a blood mage can fabricate thoughts, memories and trust..then having trust in a blood mage IS foolish. This is undeaniable.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 04 mars 2011 - 07:45 .


#334
Arppis

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No, things are rarely black and white.

#335
Lotion Soronarr

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AlexXIV wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
But Mind Control? Friggin forbidden territory. Don't even THINK about it.
IMHO, anyone who dabbles in mind control deserves to be killed on sight.
That thing is just waaaaaay too dangerou and tempting.

This almost sounds as if you had bad experience in this regard Image IPB

I don't really see what's better at killing an enemy with a fireball or controlling his mind and make him attack my enemy (and his ally). Of course you can do very evil things if you can control people's minds, but you can do most of them even without mind control. A weapon can be more or less dangerous, but whether it is used to evil ends depends on the one who uses it, not the weapon itself. I personally think if any weapon is truely evil then they are weapons of mass destruction. Those which effects you cannot even calculate.

Let's take nuclear weapons. They will kill everyone in a huge area and contaminate the area for centuries. Men, women, children, even unborn. There is no way to use it in a civilized or controlled manner. If you use it, many innocents die, period. Yet most of the 'civilized' countries have them. They don't use them anymore, luckly, but they have them.

I am not sure if I rather want someone drop an atom bomb on my city where all my friends and family live or mind control me for a while. I mean you can use mind control in a precise manner. You can choose who you control and what you make them do. But if you let fire rain from the sky and burn down a whole city, there is no way for you to calculate who is going to die and who is going to live.



Ahh...allow me to point a few key points.

1) Nuclear weaposn aren't used, because the whole worlds hates their use.

2) Nuclear weapons have a metric s***ton of security. There are dozen of people involved in launching even one if it, with many security protocoals, confirmations, etc... That power isn't on a whim of a single individual.

3) Nuclear bombs are physical weapons. They can be taken away.

4) Nuclear bombs require a LOT of effort and resources to aquire. Only a few countres have the means to make them. You cannot really hide them easily or that fact that you have them. As opposed to a blood mage with mind control. He can hide easily.

5) Nuclear bombs are limited in their use. You can only threaten with them or use them. And either of it will not get you far, as you will recieve the scorn of the world in the first case, and you don't have an endless supply of them either.

6) Mind contol is far more versatile..and FAR, FAR more tempting. Take 15 minutes to think of things you can do with mind control. Go ahead, humor me and do it.
Truly, the posibilities are endless...the temptation to use it immense. Simply because it is so subtle but powerfull. You can get that girl you always wanted...she doesn't even have to know..or say yes. And she will fulfill any of you kinks.
That police officer that gave you a parking ticket...what ticket?
Mr. President is increasing taxes? Well..we cna't have that..best "convince" him not to do that. And take over Canada while we're at it! Or frak, nuke it!

It's a perfect tool for commiting any known crime and taboo - and getting away with it wihout anyone knowing.

Really..do you think any individual will resist the temptation of such power for long? That he won't start abusing it?

#336
Lumikki

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Yeah, bloodmagic is consider as bad, it's corrupting, little like greed of power.

#337
lobi

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Blood magic is magic in it's purest form. What came first Prehistoric art and ritual or paint ? Blood is the most common medium for strong magics IRL tribal cultures as it has always been seen as liquid life. The Chantry considers magic to be evil so the purist of magic must therefore be the ultimate evil. Blood is not addictive, Lyrium is. Old Blood mages retain their intellect, templars go brain dead. Lyrium needs to be mined and refined, this makes it a controllable resource. Blood is everywhere and can be replenished by healing.
Magic isn't bad, but some mages are..

#338
lobi

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Does anyone else remember First Enchanter Irving using the 'Jedi mind trick' on Arl Eamon to get trust when you send him into the fade? Not only blood mages can use a mind control spell, its a spell like any other. Chantry lies to further it's agenda, surely you know this?

#339
daemon1129

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I think Blood magic in DA can be compared to Necromancy to some extent in other fantasy settings. If I resurrect someone from the dead as a mindless zombie, is that evil? If I mind control someone, is that evil? It COULD lead to evil acts. If I mind control you to kill your love ones and you took the blame, that's a evil use of mind control. Blood magic could lead to evil more often than other magic mainly because sentient beings often lust for power and money when they have a sufficient reason to override their own will that they will amuse the magic whenever they need to. However it is the user evil not blood magic itself. The Chantry are only using blood magic as a way to cover their own evil deeds.

#340
LobselVith8

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[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Except it illustrates that your opinion on the matter isn't a universal truth. We also have the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic in this canonical universe.[/quote]

No, it doesn't illustrate that.
How fictional characters feel about fictional characters is irrelevant. [/quote]

What about the real people who have responded to this thread who don't distrust blood mages simply because they possess the abilities of blood magic?

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Just because people trust  professor X in the X-Men comics, doesn't mean that it is a sensible thing to do..it's a superhero comic for crying out loud. [/quote]

Another person referenced the X-Men, but I don't see the point in automatically distrusting someone because they have abilities that I don't.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Again, if professor X actuayll existed in real life., I'm willing to be everything that that same oppinion wouldn't last long. [/quote]

Bigotry exists in real life - which is the entire premise of the X-Men, and why so many have compared the comic to the situation with the mages.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And no. That is not an oppinion. That IS logic. Cold, calculated, impassioante logic. [/quote]

No, Lotion, it's an opinion - yours.[/quote]

No, it is logic. I dare you to defy it..deconstruct it logicly.

I have clearly pointed out the logical folly in trusting anyone with mind control.
You as of yet had had made no logical counter-claim. [/quote]

It's not logic, it's an opinion because your statement is subjective and your personal view on the issue. I've seen others counter the claims you've made because they disagree with your view on the issue. You're welcome to your opinion, Lotion, but that's precisely what it is.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Can templars mind control you? No.

TRUST. Keyword.
Normal peopel cannot affect your trust, your mind with their will.

If I trust a templar, it is because I came to that conclusion myself.

If I trust a mage, it could very well be because the mage froced me to trust him - it was not my conclusion to do so. [/quote]

I'd trust a Grey Warden mage who uses blood magic over a templar, personally. I imagine there are others who would do the same. Again, your opinion about blood mages isn't a universal standard that everyone adheres to when Duncan counters the argument that blood magic is evil with the fact that Grey Wardens have used such magic.[/quote]

What you would do is really not important. I'm not saying you CAN'T do that. I'm saying that it is fundamentaly illogical/stupid to do so.
But hey, people have been doing stupid things since the dawn of time... [/quote]

It's not stupid to have an opinion that differs from yours, Lotion.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
A mathematical equation doesn't mirror your argument that's based entirely on your personal opinion. You're welcome to your opinion, but simply because people disagree with you doesn't make them fools.[/quote]

It mirors it perfectly. Again, basic logic.
Which you have not coutnered.

If a blood mage can fabricate thoughts, memories and trust..then having trust in a blood mage IS foolish. This is undeaniable.

[/quote]

If the blood mage is a Grey Warden and is using such abilities against the darkspawn and to save the lives of the people of Thedas, why should I distrust him?

#341
Lotion Soronarr

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[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, it doesn't illustrate that.
How fictional characters feel about fictional characters is irrelevant. [/quote]

What about the real people who have responded to this thread who don't distrust blood mages simply because they possess the abilities of blood magic?[/quote]

Blood mages don't exist and these people don't live in Thedas. They have never been subject to the powers of a blood mage or mind control.
If they did, they'd sing a different tune.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Just because people trust  professor X in the X-Men comics, doesn't mean that it is a sensible thing to do..it's a superhero comic for crying out loud. [/quote]

Another person referenced the X-Men, but I don't see the point in automatically distrusting someone because they have abilities that I don't.[/quote]

It's not the issue of different abilties - it's the issue that the abiltiy in question undermines the very basics of what trust is.

I really dont' know how else to explain it. If you really can't see the interplay between mind control and trust, which is the product of your mind, which can be directly manipulated.

Puting such total trust of your life, and hte lives of others, into an individual that can play you like puppet wihout you even knowing...it's naive.



[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Again, if professor X actuayll existed in real life., I'm willing to be everything that that same oppinion wouldn't last long. [/quote]

Bigotry exists in real life - which is the entire premise of the X-Men, and why so many have compared the comic to the situation with the mages.[/quote]

X-men and hte whole situation in there are rather stupid IMHO, but that's beside the point.
It's not bigotry..it's basic common sense and survival instinct.





[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

It's not logic, it's an opinion because your statement is subjective and your personal view on the issue. I've seen others counter the claims you've made because they disagree with your view on the issue. You're welcome to your opinion, Lotion, but that's precisely what it is.[/quote]

No, it's logic. You can't just dismiss it as oppinion because you don't like it.

Mind control is the most tempting power there is. It allow one do pretty much anything wihout getting caught.
Someone with mind control can fabricate your very thoughts. The very trust you feel can be implanted there.

How can there be trust in such a situation?
How can any sensible person put his life, and the life of those around him at stake?

It's like believing in the known laws of physics, when you know they can change on a whim.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
What you would do is really not important. I'm not saying you CAN'T do that. I'm saying that it is fundamentaly illogical/stupid to do so.
But hey, people have been doing stupid things since the dawn of time... [/quote]

It's not stupid to have an opinion that differs from yours, Lotion.[/quote]

As a general rule, no.
In this case.....yes.


[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If a blood mage can fabricate thoughts, memories and trust..then having trust in a blood mage IS foolish. This is undeaniable.

[/quote]

If the blood mage is a Grey Warden and is using such abilities against the darkspawn and to save the lives of the people of Thedas, why should I distrust him?[/quote]

Did you even read what you quoted?
HOW DO YOU KNOW HE'S NOT USING THOSE ABILITIES ON YOU RIGHT NOW?
How do you know he's using those abilitites on the Darkspawn? In the presence of a blood mage, you cannot trust your own thoughts.

#342
Satyricon331

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 I'm finding the epistemological panic on this thread very amusing. :lol:

#343
Bluto Blutarskyx

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ALL magic is evil and unnatural.

conan gets laid more than every other fantasy character combined so his opinion carries teh most weight.

#344
TEWR

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by the logic of not trusting those who can manipulate trust, I shouldn't trust anyone ever because for all I know they're just pretending to be my friends and have manipulated me into thinking they are good friends.

You can't go through life not trusting anyone just because they may or may not be a liar and manipulating you.

#345
Lotion Soronarr

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

by the logic of not trusting those who can manipulate trust, I shouldn't trust anyone ever because for all I know they're just pretending to be my friends and have manipulated me into thinking they are good friends.

You can't go through life not trusting anyone just because they may or may not be a liar and manipulating you.



There is a big difference between a liar and someone who can mind control you.
A liar cannot force trust - he can try to get you to trust him, but it requires a lot of effort and time, and you can still expose him.

Oppinions I have of poeple are of my own making. Derived from my discussions with them, my experience, etc..
For better or for worse, they are my own.

But with a blood mage, they are not. Teh scantity of your mind, the security in your own thoughts...all of that is gone.

#346
Sandy2009

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Has this thread reached any conclusion yet? As always the net result of all the discussion seems to be zero Image IPB.

I am confused by this thread, and I don't like to be confused
because confusion makes my head disoriented, and I don't like to be disoriented
because disorentation makes me walk tipsy, and I don't like to walk tipsy
because walking tipsy makes other people confused, and I don't like to make other people confused
because confusion makes their head disoriented...   

Uh... you understand the problem. Image IPB

#347
TheCreeper

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I think the biggest issue with blood mages is that the people who turn to it are often times not exactly the best folk to begin with.

#348
TEWR

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

by the logic of not trusting those who can manipulate trust, I shouldn't trust anyone ever because for all I know they're just pretending to be my friends and have manipulated me into thinking they are good friends.

You can't go through life not trusting anyone just because they may or may not be a liar and manipulating you.



There is a big difference between a liar and someone who can mind control you.
A liar cannot force trust - he can try to get you to trust him, but it requires a lot of effort and time, and you can still expose him.

Oppinions I have of poeple are of my own making. Derived from my discussions with them, my experience, etc..
For better or for worse, they are my own.

But with a blood mage, they are not. Teh scantity of your mind, the security in your own thoughts...all of that is gone.


That's assuming of course that a Blood Mage is in fact mind controlling you to trust him, but being so paranoid about every possible mage who may or may not have knowledge of Blood Magic so much that you can never trust them is not only unhealthy, but unfair.

As for a liar, people can be very crafty and intelligent with their lies, creating a lie that is next to impossible to expose, which makes you trust them. Can be. Doesn't necessarily mean that all people will be.

#349
TEWR

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Sandy2009 wrote...

Has this thread reached any conclusion yet? As always the net result of all the discussion seems to be zero Image IPB.

I am confused by this thread, and I don't like to be confused
because confusion makes my head disoriented, and I don't like to be disoriented
because disorentation makes me walk tipsy, and I don't like to walk tipsy
because walking tipsy makes other people confused, and I don't like to make other people confused
because confusion makes their head disoriented...   

Uh... you understand the problem. Image IPB


so my nefarious plans are working! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAImage IPB

#350
SnakeHelah

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Is weed inherently bad?