500 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Name me one known Warden that knew Mind Control.
And then tell me why I should trust him..because he's a Grey Warden? Pffft.

No one with powers over mind can be trusted. It's as simple as that.
And how do you know such power was not abused? You don't.

The discussion isn't about you trusting a blood mage or whether the powers might ever be abused, it's that I don't find your statement that "no one with powers over mind can be trusted" should be applied to everyone. You're in your right to distrust them, Lotion, but if a Grey Warden is using blood magic as a means to defeat the darkspawn, I see no reason personally to distrust the Warden.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If it might pay off, then doesn't it negate the idea that blood mages can never be trusted?

But if there are blood mages who are only interested in using their abilities to defeat the darkspawn or being free from the Chantry, then their goals are either to defeat the greatest danger to known civilization or to stay alive because they want to be free.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Apples nad oranges. A household cat and a liojn are both felines. Do you treat them both exactly the same?
There are a few sutpid/naive peopel that do. They most often ended up mauled by their "pet".

Animals follow instinct, and people don't. It's a fundamental difference when we're discussing people who can make moral choices and animals who don't follow such distinctions. I don't think you're wrong to point out how powerful blood magic is, but we do know that in canon there are mages focusing their blood magic against an enemy that seems never-ending and can breed possibly thousands of enemies from one Broodmother. If blood magic gives them an edge against this threat, I have no problem with it. Should I not trust them because they possess blood magic? Blood mages are no different than people in the regard that they can be good or bad, regardless of what their capabilities are.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You never do see the problems..that's your problem.

Again, I'm talking specificly about mind control here.

But if Grey Warden mages use blood magic, even mind control (as the Hero of Ferelden can), and they are focusing their energies against the darkspawn, I see it as a valid point. There are mages using their abilities for the betterment of all sentient races by using it against the greatest foe they have ever faced.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Factual..
To trust ones eyes with showing you truth when plugged in a VR setting, where everything is mellable by somoene else...is that not folly?
It is. You can try to deny it as much as you want, but trusting anyone with mind control is the height of stupidity.

It's not factual because it's speculative, Lotion. If we're going to be killed, and a Grey Warden uses blood magic to mind control the enemy against killing us, does that mean the Warden shouldn't be trusted? If Vaughan was going to kidnap the elven women, and the Warden used mind control to stop him because he's surrounded by armed guards, does that mean the Warden shouldn't be trusted? You're entitled to not trust blood mages, but that doesn't mean you should use labels like stupidity or saying they're naive if they don't share your opinion on the issue because not all blood mages are the same.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The discussion isn't about you trusting a blood mage or whether the powers might ever be abused, it's that I don't find your statement that "no one with powers over mind can be trusted" should be applied to everyone. You're in your right to distrust them, Lotion, but if a Grey Warden is using blood magic as a means to defeat the darkspawn, I see no reason personally to distrust the Warden.

You're free to trust Lucifer, Lord of Lies for all I care.
But it ain't smart.

But if there are blood mages who are only interested in using their abilities to defeat the darkspawn or being free from the Chantry, then their goals are either to defeat the greatest danger to known civilization or to stay alive because they want to be free.

Their goals are irrelevant.
Mind control power is meant for no man. Period.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Apples nad oranges. A household cat and a liojn are both felines. Do you treat them both exactly the same?
There are a few sutpid/naive peopel that do. They most often ended up mauled by their "pet".

Animals follow instinct, and people don't. It's a fundamental difference when we're discussing people who can make moral choices and animals who don't follow such distinctions. I don't think you're wrong to point out how powerful blood magic is, but we do know that in canon there are mages focusing their blood magic against an enemy that seems never-ending and can breed possibly thousands of enemies from one Broodmother. If blood magic gives them an edge against this threat, I have no problem with it. Should I not trust them because they possess blood magic? Blood mages are no different than people in the regard that they can be good or bad, regardless of what their capabilities are.

People don't have impulses? Desires? They can't be tempted? They can.
and blood magic is the most tempting kind of magic there is..the most abusable too. And at the top of Blood magic is mind control. Which is even MORE abusable and tempting.

Blood magic is inherently hte most corruptable form of magic. Period.
Now you can go ahead and belive in uncorruptable humans, and thus that any kind or amount of power given to them is OK.
But don't expect me take you seriously after that.

But if Grey Warden mages use blood magic, even mind control (as the Hero of Ferelden can), and they are focusing their energies against the darkspawn, I see it as a valid point. There are mages using their abilities for the betterment of all sentient races by using it against the greatest foe they have ever faced.

Irrelevant. The tempations and danger doesn't go away.
How do you know that those same GW's don't abuse that power on the side..and no one notices (it's mind control after all) - that GW blood mage may have been bonking your wife every night..Noit that you'd know or do anything to stop him.

You keep repeating the GW mantra. I don't care about GW. They are irrelevant to the point.
Mind control is not something ANY man should EVER posses.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Factual..
To trust ones eyes with showing you truth when plugged in a VR setting, where everything is mellable by somoene else...is that not folly?
It is. You can try to deny it as much as you want, but trusting anyone with mind control is the height of stupidity.

It's not factual because it's speculative, Lotion. If we're going to be killed, and a Grey Warden uses blood magic to mind control the enemy against killing us, does that mean the Warden shouldn't be trusted? If Vaughan was going to kidnap the elven women, and the Warden used mind control to stop him because he's surrounded by armed guards, does that mean the Warden shouldn't be trusted? You're entitled to not trust blood mages, but that doesn't mean you should use labels like stupidity or saying they're naive if they don't share your opinion on the issue because not all blood mages are the same.

I use labels that fit.
No, people with mind control cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

The discussion isn't about you trusting a blood mage or whether the powers might ever be abused, it's that I don't find your statement that "no one with powers over mind can be trusted" should be applied to everyone. You're in your right to distrust them, Lotion, but if a Grey Warden is using blood magic as a means to defeat the darkspawn, I see no reason personally to distrust the Warden.[/quote]

You're free to trust Lucifer, Lord of Lies for all I care.
But it ain't smart. [/quote]

But Lucifer isn't the same as the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic against the darkspawn.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

But if there are blood mages who are only interested in using their abilities to defeat the darkspawn or being free from the Chantry, then their goals are either to defeat the greatest danger to known civilization or to stay alive because they want to be free.[/quote]

Their goals are irrelevant.
Mind control power is meant for no man. Period. [/quote]

If it means the difference between life and death against the darkspawn, I respectfully disagree.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Animals follow instinct, and people don't. It's a fundamental difference when we're discussing people who can make moral choices and animals who don't follow such distinctions. I don't think you're wrong to point out how powerful blood magic is, but we do know that in canon there are mages focusing their blood magic against an enemy that seems never-ending and can breed possibly thousands of enemies from one Broodmother. If blood magic gives them an edge against this threat, I have no problem with it. Should I not trust them because they possess blood magic? Blood mages are no different than people in the regard that they can be good or bad, regardless of what their capabilities are.[/quote]

People don't have impulses? Desires? They can't be tempted? They can.
and blood magic is the most tempting kind of magic there is..the most abusable too. And at the top of Blood magic is mind control. Which is even MORE abusable and tempting.

Blood magic is inherently hte most corruptable form of magic. Period.
Now you can go ahead and belive in uncorruptable humans, and thus that any kind or amount of power given to them is OK.
But don't expect me take you seriously after that. [/quote]

People can make choices that animals can't, Lotion. Grey Wardens are an order dedicated to defeating the darkspawn, a foe that has taken over the fallen dwarven kingdoms, which span most of the continent of Thedas. Given that a single Broodmother can create possibly hundreds or thousands of darkspawn alone, I can see why Grey Warden mages would resort to blood magic to fight against "the true fulcrum of evil." I'm not saying people are beyond corruption, but if the goals of the blood mages using these abilities are against a siege of darkspawn that violate women and eat people, I don't see the issue.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

But if Grey Warden mages use blood magic, even mind control (as the Hero of Ferelden can), and they are focusing their energies against the darkspawn, I see it as a valid point. There are mages using their abilities for the betterment of all sentient races by using it against the greatest foe they have ever faced.[/quote]

Irrelevant. The tempations and danger doesn't go away.
How do you know that those same GW's don't abuse that power on the side..and no one notices (it's mind control after all) - that GW blood mage may have been bonking your wife every night..Noit that you'd know or do anything to stop him.

You keep repeating the GW mantra. I don't care about GW. They are irrelevant to the point.
Mind control is not something ANY man should EVER posses. [/quote]

That's your opinion, though, and you certainly have a right to it. However, it's not a fact. The Hero of Ferelden can become a blood mage and use the full extent of the specialization - including mind control -  against many foes faced, including the darkspawn. This is basically using blood magic for the same reasons that Duncan reveals Grey Warden mages have in the Magi Origin. If it means the difference between the existance of civilization and the defeat of an implacable foe, I personally see no reason to deny the use of blood magic.

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Factual..
To trust ones eyes with showing you truth when plugged in a VR setting, where everything is mellable by somoene else...is that not folly?
It is. You can try to deny it as much as you want, but trusting anyone with mind control is the height of stupidity. [/quote]

It's not factual because it's speculative, Lotion. If we're going to be killed, and a Grey Warden uses blood magic to mind control the enemy against killing us, does that mean the Warden shouldn't be trusted? If Vaughan was going to kidnap the elven women, and the Warden used mind control to stop him because he's surrounded by armed guards, does that mean the Warden shouldn't be trusted? You're entitled to not trust blood mages, but that doesn't mean you should use labels like stupidity or saying they're naive if they don't share your opinion on the issue because not all blood mages are the same.[/quote]

I use labels that fit.
No, people with mind control cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that. [/quote]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion on the issue, Lotion.

[Medhia Nox]

You cut yourself - or other people - to do your magic. You're a sick animal that needs to be put down.

[1Nosphorus1]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You're free to trust Lucifer, Lord of Lies for all I care. (Try saying that with a straight face)
But it ain't smart.

I use labels that fit.
No, people with mind control cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that.

Oh god that made me lulz, anyway:

Blood Magic is a means to an end, would you call a sword evil because it can be used to commit murder, or the person using said sword, same meaning is applied to assassins, Zevran/Thane use exactly the same anology to describe themselves.

Blood Magic is an ancient form of magic with no actual proof of where it originated from, it's deemed so by the chantry because the mages of the tevinter imperium apparently invaded the Golden City using it.

Anyway, Avernus is a Warden who has extensively used blood magic, in a rebellion against a Tyrant King who was chosen because of him being easily manipulated by the nobles in that period.
Avernus used blood magic to "push" the nobles of that era to get them to side with the Wardens or vote in a way that would favour them, there are other means that they could've done this (Threatening/bribes) but that seemed the most natural way without said person knowing and it implicating the wardens.

King Arland was a tyrant according to the limited history that actually revolves around him, the Wardens of Fereldan in that period were merely trying to survive against political measures that threatened to (and eventually did) overthrow them because of the commander's links to the throne.

Anyway, the moral of the story is, if you murdered someone with a gun, you can't blame your actions on the weapon.

[Medhia Nox]

Who tells you King Arland is a tyrant? The Grey Wardens?

If you're going to pull this: "Only the Chantry says..." garbage - at least don't be hypocritical about it.

And Avernus kills Grey Wardens to experiment on them. Demented animals need to put down.

Oh, btw - "Threatening and Bribes" aren't considered the actions of 'Good' men.

And Blood Magic is absolutely taught by demons - it's not "Chantry lies". How do you unlock Blood Magic in the game?

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, people with mind control cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that.

This has been going round for a few pages.

You can say that any trust one places in a telepath is questionable (as it is with anyone). This is not the same as not being able to trust them.

[Ziggeh]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Blood Magic is a means to an end, would you call a sword evil because it can be used to commit murder, or the person using said sword, same meaning is applied to assassins, Zevran/Thane use exactly the same anology to describe themselves.

What if the sword was made by an evil man from evil materials?

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You cut yourself - or other people - to do your magic. You're a sick animal that needs to be put down.

We know from the information provided about blood magic in DA2 that some mages use blood magic because they view it as the only truly free magic in Thedas:

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

We can also factor in that Grey Wardens are using this discipline against a foe that violates women and literally eats people.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Who tells you King Arland is a tyrant? The Grey Wardens?

That can certainly be debated, but we know Sophia has her own reservations about Arland from her personal writings and we know what he does independent of Avernus and Sophia's own insurrection against him.

Medhia Nox wrote...

And Avernus kills Grey Wardens to experiment on them. Demented animals need to put down.

His knowledge could also give the Wardens an edge against an enemy that has threatened Thedas for centuries and already destroyed most of the dwarven kingdoms.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Oh, btw - "Threatening and Bribes" aren't considered the actions of 'Good' men.

We can threaten the kidnappers in Awakening as the Warden-Commander to save the young woman they kidnapped. It's the difference between life and death for her.

Medhia Nox wrote...

And Blood Magic is absolutely taught by demons - it's not "Chantry lies". How do you unlock Blood Magic in the game?

Jowan learned it in books and the Orlesian Warden can learn it the same way.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 mars 2011 - 05:04 .

[Nerevar-as]

[quote]1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Oh god that made me lulz, anyway:

Blood Magic is a means to an end, would you call a sword evil because it can be used to commit murder, or the person using said sword, same meaning is applied to assassins, Zevran/Thane use exactly the same anology to describe themselves.[/quote]

Zevran and Thane using that argument to justify their consciences or whatever they had instead is the one thing that prevented me from liking them more. They are not inanimate things. Zevran doen´t want to stop being an assassin when he sees his way out of the Crows (don´t know if you can persuade him otherwise).

[quote]Blood Magic is an ancient form of magic with no actual proof of where it originated from, it's deemed so by the chantry because the mages of the tevinter imperium apparently invaded the Golden City using it.

Anyway, Avernus is a Warden who has extensively used blood magic, in a rebellion against a Tyrant King who was chosen because of him being easily manipulated by the nobles in that period.
Avernus used blood magic to "push" the nobles of that era to get them to side with the Wardens or vote in a way that would favour them, there are other means that they could've done this (Threatening/bribes) but that seemed the most natural way without said person knowing and it implicating the wardens.[/quote]

Avernus claimed BM came from demons, who could thus counter his own, so he resorted to try taint magic. Chnatry claims Tevinter learnt BM from the Old Gods, but Chantry is not known for its reliability.
Did he really said he used BM to sway nobles? I don´t remember to have seen that.

[quote]King Arland was a tyrant according to the limited history that actually revolves around him, the Wardens of Fereldan in that period were merely trying to survive against political measures that threatened to (and eventually did) overthrow them because of the commander's links to the throne.[/quote]

And the long term consequences were Ferelden almost falling to a Blight because Loghain couldn´t see beyond the fact that GW had ties with Orlais. Arland was leaving the Wardens on their own until Sophia decided to use them to stage a coup. Arland seems a kind of Caligula, however, so it was probably necessary to stop him.

[/quote]

[Brutus2]

My local Gamestop was giving out "The Official Mini-Guide" for Dragon Age II with pre-orders. It's a neat little book about the races, nations, organizations and lore of Thedas. It says the 16 page mini-guide comes directly from the complete official guide to Dragon Age.

The section on blood magic has this to say...

"The use of blood magic was criminalized with the inception of the Circle of Magi, as common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons."

So basically its a "ends don't justify the means" deal. You may have good intentions, you may see your Hawke, Warden or Jowen as "good" but the fact that you must steal blood or life force to power your magic (even if you only use your own blood), is an evil act regardless of what you use the magic to accomplish. The accepted belief is that contuned use of blood magic will completly corrupt the mage eventually.

[Medhia Nox]

Jowan learns it from books - yes, but from First Enchanter Irving you find out that Uldred was put in place to tempt weaker mages with things like Blood Magic. Jowan likely learned it from here - and we all know how Uldred turns out.

It's not about not learning it from books - I believe that Origins seriously points at Blood Magic as a demonic discipline (and the Tevinter Imperium supposedly learned it from demons first - then probably from each other).

Can anyone state what Jowan says if you let him go free? I sent him back to the Circle - and he basically says: "Yes, this is what should happen." Even before this - if you ask him what he'll do after he helps you, he says: Probably be executed or sent back to the Circle. Even he knows he's only done evil with his blood magic.

I'm not sure what the writers believe - and ultimately, that's all that's actually relevant here. But for all play throughs except for ones where I consider myself evil - I would not use, nor accept the use of, blood magic in my party.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 05 mars 2011 - 05:54 .

[LobselVith8]

Brutus2 wrote...

The section on blood magic has this to say...

"The use of blood magic was criminalized with the inception of the Circle of Magi, as common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons."

So basically its a "ends don't justify the means" deal.

That's an issue of perspective, not fact. The snippet of information you provided admits as much when it reads that "common wisdom holds" because it's heresay. Emperor Drakon I established the Chantry of Andraste, the Circle of Magi, and the Order of Templars when he formed the Orlesian Empire. His decisions were based on his own religious views because he adhered to a particular Cult of Andraste. Duncan provides the pragmatic view about Grey Wardens using blood magic in the Magi Origin as a counterpoint to the common view espoused by the Chantry of Andraste.

[Medhia Nox]

Duncan was a "Pragmatist" - and pragmatists =/= "Good" people.

Has there been a good blood mage in the game yet? ((The player doesn't count - you're not part of 'canon'))

Every blood mage I've encountered in the game has been evil - even Flemeth and Morrigan don't seem to be interested in touching the stuff from what I've seen (again, giving Morrigan Blood Mage is not part of "canon" for the Dragon Age universe)

And the acts of all the blood mages in game are horrendous. Sure - Jowan gets off as being selfish and stupid, but still - "Blood Mages are selfish and stupid." is hardly an endorsement of the practice.

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Jowan learns it from books - yes, but from First Enchanter Irving you find out that Uldred was put in place to tempt weaker mages with things like Blood Magic. Jowan likely learned it from here - and we all know how Uldred turns out.

You're comparing a situation where an apprentice learns about blood magic from books with a revolt that took place with mages looking to emancipate themselves from the Chantry; they're two entirely different scenerios. We're also unaware of how Uldred would have learned about blood magic, so it's impossible to say if he learned it from a demon or through reading about it as Jowan did.

Medhia Nox wrote...

It's not about not learning it from books - I believe that Origins seriously points at Blood Magic as a demonic discipline (and the Tevinter Imperium supposedly learned it from demons first - then probably from each other).

Nobody knows about it's inception; we have the claims that it came from Dumat or that it's derived from demons, but it's speculation that we can't prove either way.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Can anyone state what Jowan says if you let him go free? I sent him back to the Circle - and he basically says: "Yes, this is what should happen." Even before this - if you ask him what he'll do after he helps you, he says: Probably be executed or sent back to the Circle. Even he knows he's only done evil with his blood magic. 

If you let him go, he defends refugees under the alias Master Levyn.

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm not sure what the writers believe - and ultimately, that's all that's actually relevant here. But for all play throughs except for ones where I consider myself evil - I would not use, nor accept the use of, blood magic in my party.

I don't think it's intended to be an issue where there's a right or wrong, but it's a matter of personal persective - the same way we can agree with the Chantry and its templars or the Circles and their mages, we can agree with the use of blood magic or have nothing to do with it.

[1Nosphorus1]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Who tells you King Arland is a tyrant? The Grey Wardens?

If you're going to pull this: "Only the Chantry says..." garbage - at least don't be hypocritical about it.

And Avernus kills Grey Wardens to experiment on them. Demented animals need to put down.

Oh, btw - "Threatening and Bribes" aren't considered the actions of 'Good' men.

And Blood Magic is absolutely taught by demons - it's not "Chantry lies". How do you unlock Blood Magic in the game?

Hypocritical? My dear boy it would be best for you to learn what that word means, for I provide evidence when needed to back up my statements rather than statements of opinion.

- If you read the letters in Warden's keep, the banns had sought out the warden's help in a rebellion against the King, certain Bann's and Teyrns had run into problems with him, Couslands were executed including the Teyrn and another had his entire family slaughtered for speaking out of turn. Knowledge about Arland is from word of mouth, or letters that date back to said period with history detailing at least some events, it ended with a civil war with him being removed, 'nuff said.

- It's never fully explained how he went about gaining his experiment subjects, perhaps they were donated by Sophia, or they had consented since the Grey Warden motto is all about sacrifice, in his work he managed to halt his own taint for over 200 years, unlocking tainted magic within the blood that could lead to (potentially) the biggest weapon against the demons/darkspawn ever. If you know about RPG alignments, then you'd know that even Chaotic good is still classed as good, the ends justify the means, think Ozymandius from Watchmen.

- Good men is completely subjective, you could threaten/bribe an evil man to leave someone alone, or to leave and never return, a bully for example, or a corrupt politician, at least they leave with their lives intact.

- Jowan learned Blood Magic from a book in the mages circle, in awakening you can learn the talent tree by purchasing a book, you can also learn it from a Demon, by either a) Bargaining with a demon for a boys soul Threatening the demon to leave and never return, and demanding something off of it for letting it continue it's existence.

is certaintly not evil, and is the only way that I ever learn the specialisation.

Modifié par 1Nosphorus1, 05 mars 2011 - 06:19 .

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Duncan was a "Pragmatist" - and pragmatists =/= "Good" people.

That's an issue of perspective. I'd consider someone who would give their life to defend the people of Thedas against the darkspawn to be a good person.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Has there been a good blood mage in the game yet? ((The player doesn't count - you're not part of 'canon'))

I'd consider Jowan defending refugees as Master Levyn to be good. You're welcome to disagree, of course.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Every blood mage I've encountered in the game has been evil - even Flemeth and Morrigan don't seem to be interested in touching the stuff from what I've seen (again, giving Morrigan Blood Mage is not part of "canon" for the Dragon Age universe)

Most of the people we come across are antagonists, though. Using blood magic doesn't mean someone is evil.

Medhia Nox wrote...

And the acts of all the blood mages in game are horrendous. Sure - Jowan gets off as being selfish and stupid, but still - "Blood Mages are selfish and stupid." is hardly an endorsement of the practice.

I wouldn't consider the Grey Wardens who use blood magic against the darkspawn stupid or selfish.

[1Nosphorus1]

Ziggeh wrote...
What if the sword was made by an evil man from evil materials?

Then I'd ask if you played Warcraft, and tell you to read up on the Ashbringer (Sword).

nevervar-as wrote...

Did he really said he used BM to sway nobles? I don´t remember to have seen that.

A quote from the conversation:

Warden: "You practiced blood magic on the nobles?"
Avernus: "Of course. To nudge people, to keep our secret safe."

Modifié par 1Nosphorus1, 05 mars 2011 - 06:24 .

[Eludajae]

The Chantry fears Blood Magic not because of its origin, learning it from Spirits or Demons. If you listen to Gregore in DA:O their fear is the ability of the Blood Mage to control others. This type of absolute control corrupts the individual using it. Finally, what happens is the spirits or demons that taught them finally lure the mage into more and more controls till the mage falls to one of the demonic sins, Rage, Desire and most likely, Pride. Remember what the Pride demon said to you in DA:O to your mage. "Keep your wits about you mage. True tests never end."

[Nerevar-as]

Brutus2 wrote...


"The use of blood magic was criminalized with the inception of the Circle of Magi, as common wisdom holds that there is no way to use blood magic with good intentions. Inevitably, even blood mages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons."

That´s what the popular wisdom says, not the DM rulebook. The point to me is whether BM works as the Dark Side of the Force, which corrupts just for using it, or it is just resist temptation in the use of certain powers of that school. I agree just the latter is probably close to impossible depending on the circunstances, and there are probably alternatives not dependant on BM.

[1Nosphorus1]

Eludajae wrote...
What happens is the spirits or demons that taught them finally lure the mage into more and more controls till the mage falls to one of the demonic sins, Rage, Desire and most likely, Pride. Remember what the Pride demon said to you in DA:O to your mage. "Keep your wits about you mage. True tests never end."

Demon's feed on the psyche of the Dreamer's, that is where the demon hierarchy comes from, a mage never falls, unless he makes a pact with the demon or allows possession, it's why Uldred asked the mage "Do you accept the gift I offer?", Mages are only susceptable to this more often than others because they alone are Conscious during their dreams in the fade, which makes them easy targets for Demons and preferable hosts.

[Nerevar-as]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

A quote from the conversation:

Warden: "You practiced blood magic on the nobles?"
Avernus: "Of course. To nudge people, to keep our secret safe."

Didn´t remember that. Not that he was very successful.

[Medhia Nox]

We have two examples of Grey Wardens who use Blood Magic. The Warden (doesn't count - it's the player) and Avernus. You are free to believe that Avernus was good - I don't believe he was. He was killing Wardens against their will in the name of "magical science" to create a super soldier - hmmm, sounds familiar.

And being pragmatic is not the same as being good - they're too totally different mindsets. A good man can take a pragmatic action that is also good, and a pragmatic man can make a pragmatic action that happens to also be good - but they're not the same thing.

The Wardens are tricky - you're going to die anyway. Nearly all the wardens are probably fatalistic in the extreme - if they live to a long ripe age they'll suffer horrible dreams, and turn into darkspawn if they don't die at the hands of darkspawn in their self-imposed exile. "Dying in the name of heroism." actually sounds like the easy way out to me. Remember - the Wardens are tricked into service.

You've got me on the Jowan thing - I just researched his Chanter's Board side quest. He seems repentant - but, do you see him using Blood Magic in his defense of those people or "just magic". He's still too quick to result to sacrifice to get the job done - it's the easy way out.

Also - if you don't think bad men do good things sometimes so they can sleep at night, well I think you should consider yourself lucky, cause you don't know enough bad men.

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As I said - it's not a matter of "What's true." Only the writers know that. I will always capture blood mages and force them to accept execution - or become Tranquil - unless I am playing a evil playthrough.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 05 mars 2011 - 06:36 .

[TheCreeper]

Personally I think Tranquiling somebody is worse than having the power to mind control people.

[Medhia Nox]

Would you prefer them to become like Uldred and then use your soul for a garnish?