500 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Medhia Nox wrote...

We have two examples of Grey Wardens who use Blood Magic. The Warden (doesn't count - it's the player) and Avernus. You are free to believe that Avernus was good - I don't believe he was.

Duncan admits there are Grey Wardens who use this magic in the Magi Origin. Avernus clearly isn't the only one who uses such magic, and even the Grey Warden can admit (in Warden's Keep) that there's no prohibition against blood magic for the order.

Medhia Nox wrote...

He was killing Wardens against their will in the name of "magical science" to create a super soldier - hmmm, sounds familiar.

They're different scenerios when you factor in that the Grey Wardens are tasked with defeating the darkspawn, who have tried to destroy the world four times already through the Blights (and a fifth time in DA:O), and they've taken over the dwarven kingdoms. They outnumber the Grey Wardens, and Avernus' research is focused on their defeat through exploiting the taint within the Grey Wardens.

Medhia Nox wrote...

And being pragmatic is not the same as being good - they're too totally different mindsets. A good man can take a pragmatic action that is also good, and a pragmatic man can make a pragmatic action that happens to also be good - but they're not the same thing.

I addressed it's a matter of perspective, which is precisely what good and evil is. Your idea of what constitutes being good isn't the universal standard.

Medhia Nox wrote...

The Wardens are tricky - you're going to die anyway. Nearly all the wardens are probably fatalistic in the extreme - if they live to a long ripe age they'll suffer horrible dreams, and turn into darkspawn if they don't die at the hands of darkspawn in their self-imposed exile. "Dying in the name of heroism." actually sounds like the easy way out to me.

Going up against the darkspawn and dying to take out as many as you can hardly sounds like the easy way out to me. It's the reason why the order is respected among the dwarven people.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Remember - the Wardens are tricked into service.

Loghain isn't tricked into service, he's given an opportunity to redeem himself for his mistakes. Many are actually saved from a death sentence in order to be given a chance to help Thedas by serving as a Grey Warden and fighting the darkspawn.

Medhia Nox wrote...

You've got me on the Jowan thing - I just researched his Chanter's Board side quest. He seems repentant - but, do you see him using Blood Magic in his defense of those people or "just magic". He's still too quick to result to sacrifice to get the job done - it's the easy way out.

Jowan is devoting his life to helping people during a Blight when he could have otherwise run away. We also know there are other means for blood magic besides mind control. Finn uses blood magic to find the Eluvian. The templars use a form of blood magic with the phylactery. I know Duncan discusses Wardens who use blood magic against the darkspawn. Not everyone who uses blood magic uses it for a malevolent purpose.

Medhia Nox wrote...

As I said - it's not a matter of "What's true." Only the writers know that. I will always capture blood mages and force them to accept execution - or become Tranquil - unless I am playing a evil playthrough.

It's a matter of perspective, of course. I see no problem with using blood magic against the darkspawn.

[TEWR]

there is also another good blood mage, though not a very notable one. In the Circle Tower, the blood mage that begs you to spare her life can be told to fight against the Darkspawn with the other mages as she can "kill the darkspawn faster"

So we have Avernus as a "meh middle ground mage", Jowan as the truly good, albeit slightly stupid in what he does Blood Mage, and this random blood mage who fought against the Darkspawn.

[TheCreeper]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Would you prefer them to become like Uldred and then use your soul for a garnish?

No, If going to elimate a blood mage, kill them don't lobomtize their freaking soul.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

there is also another good blood mage, though not a very notable one. In the Circle Tower, the blood mage that begs you to spare her life can be told to fight against the Darkspawn with the other mages as she can "kill the darkspawn faster"

That's true. The unnamed blood mage is willing to atone for her mistakes by fighting the darkspawn so she can redeem herself.

Medhia Nox wrote...

Would you prefer them to become like Uldred and then use your soul for a garnish?

Are we assuming that everyone who is sent to be made tranquil is beyond redemption? Because we already know from Jowan (who can become Master Levyn) that this isn't true.

[SunnKingg]

Blood magic is not evil when a mage uses his own blood, but becomes evil when he uses the blood of others. This dichotomy is brought about by the practitioners themselves. To say that all blood mages are evil takes away the individuality of the people who use it. Mind control can be a very bad thing, so i can understand why people are apprehensive about blood mages. However, that does not mean the all blood mages will use mind control or even know how too. Everyone is capable of great evil and great good. We have learned in the world of Thedas that almost everything is gray, which includes blood mages and blood magic.

[1Nosphorus1]

Nerevar-as wrote...
Don´t remember that. Not that he was very successful.

He says that Sophia had ordered him too, but he said that she was too soft, and he should've pushed harder.

Medhia Nox wrote...

We have two examples of Grey Wardens who use Blood Magic. The Warden and Avernus. You are free to believe that Avernus was good I don't believe he was.

And being pragmatic is not the same as being good - they're too totally different mindsets.

Also - if you don't think bad men do good things sometimes so they can sleep at night, well I think you should consider yourself lucky, cause you don't know enough bad men.

As I said - it's not a matter of "What's true." Only the writers know that. I will always capture blood mages and force them to accept execution - or become Tranquil - unless I am playing a evil playthrough.

- The Grey Warden can be used as an example here, you create the lore surrounding him, it's why he is imported in the sequal of course, and his actions had repurcusions. If people speak highly of me for saving the world as a Blood Mage but also as a circle mage/grey warden then it's all bonus points. You can roleplay him how you wish, but my Warden always fought "For the Greater Good".

- Being good is subjective, that's what you're missing, we have different perceptions on it, being a pragmatist is more like doing the job that must be done, rather than questioning if someone else could do it. That's what the Grey Wardens are, Pragmatists and in RPG alignment terms, Chaotic Good.
Sacrificing the lives of 200 people to save the lives of thousands is always a Chaotic Good choice, you can moan and whine about how immoral or moral it is, but the ends justifies the means, it's as simple as that.

- I doubt bioware will address who is right/wrong in this debate, since it's an entirely subjective topic.

[DKJaigen]

Ah people like lotion and medhia nox only see this world in black and white and as such arent really worth listening to(neither are people who completely biased pro mages). My opinion anything that doesn't alter your mental functions or changes your personality isnt corrupting. And as such blood magic isn t inherently evil.

But like any form of power bloodmagic needs to be put i the hands of the experienced and the trusted any form of power its open to abuse.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You're free to trust Lucifer, Lord of Lies for all I care.
But it ain't smart. [/quote]

But Lucifer isn't the same as the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic against the darkspawn.[/quot]

You're missing the point....





[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

People don't have impulses? Desires? They can't be tempted? They can.
and blood magic is the most tempting kind of magic there is..the most abusable too. And at the top of Blood magic is mind control. Which is even MORE abusable and tempting.

Blood magic is inherently hte most corruptable form of magic. Period.
Now you can go ahead and belive in uncorruptable humans, and thus that any kind or amount of power given to them is OK.
But don't expect me take you seriously after that. [/quote]

People can make choices that animals can't, Lotion. Grey Wardens are an order dedicated to defeating the darkspawn, a foe that has taken over the fallen dwarven kingdoms, which span most of the continent of Thedas. Given that a single Broodmother can create possibly hundreds or thousands of darkspawn alone, I can see why Grey Warden mages would resort to blood magic to fight against "the true fulcrum of evil." I'm not saying people are beyond corruption, but if the goals of the blood mages using these abilities are against a siege of darkspawn that violate women and eat people, I don't see the issue.[/quote]

Again, Grey Wardens are irrelevant. You keep brining them in like some lifeline.



[quote]
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Irrelevant. The tempations and danger doesn't go away.
How do you know that those same GW's don't abuse that power on the side..and no one notices (it's mind control after all) - that GW blood mage may have been bonking your wife every night..Noit that you'd know or do anything to stop him.

You keep repeating the GW mantra. I don't care about GW. They are irrelevant to the point.
Mind control is not something ANY man should EVER posses. [/quote]

That's your opinion, though, and you certainly have a right to it. However, it's not a fact. The Hero of Ferelden can become a blood mage and use the full extent of the specialization - including mind control -  against many foes faced, including the darkspawn. This is basically using blood magic for the same reasons that Duncan reveals Grey Warden mages have in the Magi Origin. If it means the difference between the existance of civilization and the defeat of an implacable foe, I personally see no reason to deny the use of blood magic.[/quote]

The Hero of Ferelden is a fictional character (with plot shields) and thus, irrelevant.
Games dont' offer real temptation, and willpower and mental resistance are rrestricted to a conversation option.

What your Warden did is of no interest to me.

And agian, I'm not talking about drinking darkspawn blood - I'm talking about Mind control.






[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I use labels that fit.
No, people with mind control cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that. [/quote]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion on the issue, Lotion.[/quote]

Your'e certanly entilted to ignore reason.

[1Nosphorus1]

DKJaigen wrote...

Ah people like lotion and medhia nox only see this world in black and white and as such arent really worth listening to(neither are people who completely biased pro mages). My opinion anything that doesn't alter your mental functions or changes your personality isnt corrupting. And as such blood magic isn t inherently evil.

But like any form of power bloodmagic needs to be put i the hands of the experienced and the trusted any form of power its open to abuse.

Exaclty, Blood Magic is a means to an end, I condemned Avernus' experiments but forgave him, and allowed him to carry on spending what remains of his lifespan continuing his research into the taint.

I'd like to see blood mages have a sort of Jedi mind trick conversation option in DA2, although with the limited dialogue options availible I doubt we'd see it happen.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Ah people like lotion and medhia nox only see this world in black and white and as such arent really worth listening to(neither are people who completely biased pro mages). My opinion anything that doesn't alter your mental functions or changes your personality isnt corrupting. And as such blood magic isn t inherently evil.

But like any form of power bloodmagic needs to be put i the hands of the experienced and the trusted any form of power its open to abuse.

Tsk, tsk...

Me completely black and white? Not worth listening to?

And I assume you are?

No, my dear confused little man - I don't see this world black and white - I see it as it is.
And I'm well aware of the human condition an common psychology.

Any human with mind control WILL abuse it. It's not a question of IF, but WHEN. Feel free to go back to your Care Bear Cloud Castle and belief in the incorruptable pure pureness.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, people with mind control cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that.

This has been going round for a few pages.

You can say that any trust one places in a telepath is questionable (as it is with anyone). This is not the same as not being able to trust them.

No, it is not the same as anyone.
The difference between  being manipulated by a normal person and a blood mage, is the difference between being shot from a pistol and having a nuke dropped on your head.

Altough the correct phrase really should be "trusting a telepath is foolish". Nothing is physical preventing trust, so it is possible to trust them....Just like it's possible to run on hte interstate wiht your eyes closed.
Incredibly ill-advised.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 05 mars 2011 - 07:58 .

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Tsk, tsk...

Me completely black and white? Not worth listening to?

And I assume you are?

No, my dear confused little man - I don't see this world black and white - I see it as it is.
And I'm well aware of the human condition an common psychology.

Nice explanation but then you say this

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Any human with mind control WILL abuse it. It's not a question of IF, but WHEN.

This here is very definition of black and white thinking. as i said i cannot take you seriously

[Medhia Nox]

@DKJaigen - so, if I don't agree with you, I'm not worth listening to. That's an awfully black and white statement. Everyone believes in black and white - what they believe vs. what they believe is wrong. Don't play superior little sophist.

At least LobselVith8 provides excellent rebuttals to my comments - proves me incorrect on several - and in the end, we both agree it's simply a matter of perspective.

===

I wonder how many of you superior grey moralists made a black and white judgment about Loghain.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Tsk, tsk...

Me completely black and white? Not worth listening to?

And I assume you are?

No, my dear confused little man - I don't see this world black and white - I see it as it is.
And I'm well aware of the human condition an common psychology.

Nice explanation but then you say this

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Any human with mind control WILL abuse it. It's not a question of IF, but WHEN.

This here is very definition of black and white thinking. as i said i cannot take you seriously

So...it's balack and white to think that some temptations are too great?
There is a limit to any willpower?
That sometimes, no matter what, you will fail?

There are limits to everything in this universe. If that is your definition of black and white thinking, then I don't care about your useless labels.


Tell me - do you think you would never abuse the power of mind control if it was granted to you? Please...think about it  for a while and answer honestly.
Personally, I dread the very thought of having that power.

Anyone who sez they'd love o have that power and that they'd never abuse it - those would be the first to do so.

[Medhia Nox]

No Lotion - he thinks some abuses of Mind Control are justifiable. Everything is justifiable to gray moralists... it's what they desire that justifies it.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You're free to trust Lucifer, Lord of Lies for all I care.
But it ain't smart.

But Lucifer isn't the same as the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic against the darkspawn.

You're missing the point....

Because there's a fundamental difference between placing trust in people who possess the abilities of blood magic, like the Grey Wardens, and a fallen angel who is said to betray and harm people, especially when we're explicitly told that there are blood mages who are using their powers to fight against the greatest enemy humanity has ever faced.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

People can make choices that animals can't, Lotion. Grey Wardens are an order dedicated to defeating the darkspawn, a foe that has taken over the fallen dwarven kingdoms, which span most of the continent of Thedas. Given that a single Broodmother can create possibly hundreds or thousands of darkspawn alone, I can see why Grey Warden mages would resort to blood magic to fight against "the true fulcrum of evil." I'm not saying people are beyond corruption, but if the goals of the blood mages using these abilities are against a siege of darkspawn that violate women and eat people, I don't see the issue.

Again, Grey Wardens are irrelevant. You keep brining them in like some lifeline.

I'm addressing the Grey Wardens because we know in canon that there are some mages among the order who use blood magic as a means to defeat the darkspawn. I also don't see why it's irrelevant in a discussion that deals specifically with mages who use blood magic.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's your opinion, though, and you certainly have a right to it. However, it's not a fact. The Hero of Ferelden can become a blood mage and use the full extent of the specialization - including mind control -  against many foes faced, including the darkspawn. This is basically using blood magic for the same reasons that Duncan reveals Grey Warden mages have in the Magi Origin. If it means the difference between the existance of civilization and the defeat of an implacable foe, I personally see no reason to deny the use of blood magic.

The Hero of Ferelden is a fictional character (with plot shields) and thus, irrelevant.
Games dont' offer real temptation, and willpower and mental resistance are rrestricted to a conversation option.

What your Warden did is of no interest to me.

And agian, I'm not talking about drinking darkspawn blood - I'm talking about Mind control.

Technically, blood mages are fictional as well. Also, I'm not discussing what my Warden did, I'm addressing that the Warden protagonist can become a blood mage and use the full extent of abilities granted by the specialization to fight the darkspawn, which mirrors what other Warden mages have used blood magic for. It's not an issue of plot shields or plot armor when we're informed that other members of the order use this ability, and even our own Warden can openly say that it's not forbidden by the Grey Wardens at Warden's Keep.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You're certainly entitled to your opinion on the issue, Lotion.

Your'e certanly entilted to ignore reason.

I disagreed with your opinion, Lotion, that's all.

[SonvarTheMighty]

@OP
I don't think it's inherently evil but that's its prone to causing issues as controlling it is very difficult. Blood magic doesn't allow for much room for error to cause a potential calamity

[1Nosphorus1]

Medhia Nox wrote...

No Lotion - he thinks some abuses of Mind Control are justifiable. Everything is justifiable to gray moralists... it's what they desire that justifies it.

Of course it's justifiable in my eyes, who dictates that it isn't? The Chantry? You?

Unless you can provide legit arguements and proof that Blood Magic is pure evil then I suggest you and and a certain other refrain from posting in this topic since none of it's discussion, you're dictating.

[Medhia Nox]

To expand on what Sonvar is saying - magic is already dangerous. Demons don't wait for a mage to take the test - Connor is corrupted as a child. He's not a blood mage - blood magic isn't involved.

So - to me it's like giving a sharp object to a suicide risk. Sure - they "might" not cut themselves - but seriously?

====

LOL You decided it was justifiable correct 1Nosphorus1? Who are you to decide that? It's a black and white statement to say it's justifiable. The only non-black and white statement is to say: "All must decide for themselves."

And I have decided that were these types of mages real - I would be a Templar, or if a mage - I would be a Loyalist and support Tranquility.

Also - saying I have no place here is intolerant - little strange since you're taking insult from my "intolerance". More grey morality simply being common self-centeredness.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 05 mars 2011 - 08:21 .

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Blood-magic is best taught only to those who can control the temptations. however, It does take a pretty unusual person to use a weapon for purely good aims.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...



So...it's balack and white to think that some temptations are too great?
There is a limit to any willpower?
That sometimes, no matter what, you will fail?

By your very definition their should be no kings president or prime ministers. they are certainly in a position to abuse their power. Some do some don't that's very nature of humanity.

There are limits to everything in this universe. If that is your definition of black and white thinking, then I don't care about your useless labels.


Your limit yourself by your own unrelenting cynism

Tell me - do you think you would never abuse the power of mind control if it was granted to you? Please...think about it  for a while and answer honestly.

No. i cannot even do evil acts while roleplaying let alone in the real world.

Personally, I dread the very thought of having that power.

You would make you an excellent bloodmage then.

Anyone who sez they'd love o have that power and that they'd never abuse it - those would be the first to do so.

[1Nosphorus1]

Medhia Nox wrote...
LOL You decided it was justifiable correct
1Nosphorus1? Who are you to decide that? It's a black and white
statement to say it's justifiable. The only non-black and white
statement is to say: "All must decide for themselves."

And I have
decided that were these types of mages real - I would be a Templar, or
if a mage - I would be a Loyalist and support Tranquility.

Also -
saying I have no place here is intolerant - little strange since you're
taking insult from my "intolerance". More grey morality simply being
common self-centeredness.

Wrong, I've never commented on grey morality, I've always posed that there is an alignment to things,
and that Blood Magic is a tool that someone can use/take advantage of.

Notice that I said in my eyes? It means that in my opinion, I think there are occassions where it is completely justifiable "LOL !!!!!!!!!", whereas you see yourself speaking facts, it's merely just your opinion.

I never said you deal with absolutes (Like a Sith would, and they're the bad guys, subjectively), I'm saying that you have so far had hardly any concrete evidence to your claims apart from your own opinion on the matter, something which is doing you a disservice.

I said you have no place here if all you do is post that Blood Magic is evil end of discussion and bicker with everyone who would say otherwise, despite them providing clear examples. and infact, Lore (which is THE most important thing in this game universe) to back up their statements.

Modifié par 1Nosphorus1, 05 mars 2011 - 08:38 .

[Chill 0078]

TheCreeper wrote...

So I notice that there is no really good Blood mage in Dragon Age, there is Jowan who means well but messes up everything he touches and of course PC and companion mages if you so chose but that is barely touched on in dialogue. So that raises the question, is Blood Magic an inherently bad kind of magic that only a few select people can use without abusing it, abusing others with it or consorting with demons? Or can it be a genuine force for good if used by people with self control?

Blood magic isn't really bad but it is used by the wrong people  and pluse since the Tivinters used it everyone hates it

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Because there's a fundamental difference between placing trust in people who possess the abilities of blood magic, like the Grey Wardens, and a fallen angel who is said to betray and harm people, especially when we're explicitly told that there are blood mages who are using their powers to fight against the greatest enemy humanity has ever faced.

I told you - missing the point.
People are capable of trusting anyone - even when it's the most stupid thing in the world.

LobselVith8 wrote..

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Again, Grey Wardens are irrelevant. You keep brining them in like some lifeline.

I'm addressing the Grey Wardens because we know in canon that there are some mages among the order who use blood magic as a means to defeat the darkspawn. I also don't see why it's irrelevant in a discussion that deals specifically with mages who use blood magic.

Becuase it's irrelevant to the dangers of mind control.

It doesn't matter who the blood mage in question is. It doesne't matter is he's a Grey Warden. The temptation doesn't go away.
In fact, for a Grey Warden it might even be a greater temptation to abuse it.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
The Hero of Ferelden is a fictional character (with plot shields) and thus, irrelevant.
Games dont' offer real temptation, and willpower and mental resistance are rrestricted to a conversation option.

What your Warden did is of no interest to me.

And agian, I'm not talking about drinking darkspawn blood - I'm talking about Mind control.

Technically, blood mages are fictional as well. Also, I'm not discussing what my Warden did, I'm addressing that the Warden protagonist can become a blood mage and use the full extent of abilities granted by the specialization to fight the darkspawn, which mirrors what other Warden mages have used blood magic for. It's not an issue of plot shields or plot armor when we're informed that other members of the order use this ability, and even our own Warden can openly say that it's not forbidden by the Grey Wardens at Warden's Keep.

And the Warden can abuse that power as well. Being a Grey Warden doesn't mean a mage is suddenly a good guy, or that he did't - or won't - abuse his power.

I'm concerned with how real people would act if given mind control powers. And they would abuse it. Mind control is too tempting.
I'd call it downright corrupting. Like the One Ring ...not directly, but indirectly.
Even if you were to start to use it for a good purpose....it would end up corrupting you.

[Lotion Soronarr]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So...it's balack and white to think that some temptations are too great?
There is a limit to any willpower?
That sometimes, no matter what, you will fail?

By your very definition their should be no kings president or prime ministers. they are certainly in a position to abuse their power. Some do some don't that's very nature of humanity.

Kings, ministers...to all of them the power is given and can be taken away. It's not part of them. And it's a different kind of power...one that stems from the need of epople to organize themselves. Leaders will always exist.

And the temptation of mind control is far greater. It is different. It is far more sutble and abusable.

We are all human. At some point, we will all fall to temptation if it's great enough.

There are limits to everything in this universe. If that is your definition of black and white thinking, then I don't care about your useless labels.


Your limit yourself by your own unrelenting cynism

It's not cynicims - It's realism.
I see the world as it is. Humans are capable of extreems of good and evil - under right conditions.But as everything else, they have limits..both physical and mental.

Tell me - do you think you would never abuse the power of mind control if it was granted to you? Please...think about it  for a while and answer honestly.

No. i cannot even do evil acts while roleplaying let alone in the real world.

Personally, I dread the very thought of having that power.

You would make you an excellent bloodmage then.

Anyone who sez they'd love o have that power and that they'd never abuse it - those would be the first to do so.

:lol::lol::lol: