500 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

We aren't going to agree on this issue, Lotion. I'm curious, though: if Merrill uses blood magic, will you not accept her as a companion because you don't trust blood mages?

[Ziggeh]

1Nosphorus1 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...
What if the sword was made by an evil man from evil materials?

Then I'd ask if you played Warcraft, and tell you to read up on the Ashbringer (Sword).

That's a good example. While it's corrupted form may be used for good, or presumably it's good for ill, the sword itself is not neutral, it exists in either a positive or negative state. We can make a judgement about the sword itself because it exists in a fantasy universe in which there are such absolutes.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 mars 2011 - 03:53 .

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, it is not the same as anyone.

Why? The process is different but the result is the same. Trust may be gained under false pretense and is therefor questionable whether magic has been involved or not.

I'll agree that the ease of such a practice would make trust more questionable, but this does not preclude trust entirely.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Altough the correct phrase really should be "trusting a telepath is foolish". Nothing is physical preventing trust, so it is possible to trust them....

If we're talking semantics, and your position is that trust may be imposed through mind control, then you're saying that having your mind controlled itself is foolish.

[Medhia Nox]

We ban things all the time in the real world. The Geneva Convention has several acts which are "crimes of war". Are they just oppressing people's rights to win a fight by whatever mean's necessary?

The One Ring is a perfect counter example to whatever Ashbringer can do (not interested in WoW or WoW Lore). There is no possible way it can be used for good - the wisest people know this, the stupidest think otherwise.

So is all of Warhammer. The dumbest people in Warhammer think they can control Chaos. Chaos always wins. It always corrupts and destroys. You can use it 'for good' for a little while - the better for it to corrupt you - but in the end, you will be destroyed by it.

I won't give an arsonist a lighter and an aerosol can - I won't give anarchists materials to make bombs - and I wouldn't give a Dragon Age mage more temptation than it already has.

Are the phylacteries evil? Or are they just a tool like blood magic itself?

You didn't ask me LobselVith8 - but if I were playing my mage character, no I would not allow her to be part of my group. That's not because I'd already be a mage - that's because my mage would know the dangers of blood magic and think it an offense worthy of at least being made Tranquil.

If I were playing a rogue or a warrior - I'd consider my options. If I were more pragmatic - I'd probably keep her. If I wanted to consider that those two classes probably wouldn't know much about magic - then, I'd probably keep her. Otherwise - she'd be cast out in those playthroughs as well.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, it is not the same as anyone.

Why? The process is different but the result is the same. Trust may be gained under false pretense and is therefor questionable whether magic has been involved or not.

Really? The same? How can it be even remotely the same?

People can be manipulative, but that is very limited. It requires a lot of planing, time and effort to manipulate someone. It's not at all easy - few can really be called master manipulators. And there are limits.
And you can fight against manipulators - you an expose them, you can trick them.

Can a manipulator trick you into killing yourself? Killing your friends? Unless you're very unstable, hardly. And how long will it take him to do that?
A blood mage can make you kill yourself with a snap of a finger. He can make you murder your wife, your child, rob a bank, and drop your pants and bend over with ease.

A blood mage FORCES himself into your mind.
No..it's not ever remotely the same.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Altough the correct phrase really should be "trusting a telepath is foolish". Nothing is physical preventing trust, so it is possible to trust them....

If we're talking semantics, and your position is that trust may be imposed through mind control, then you're saying that having your mind controlled itself is foolish.

Ehh..what?

No..I'm saying that trusting anyone with mind control - allowing anyone to wield such power - is foolish. it's a kind of power that will be abused. There's no "if's" about it.

[LobselVith8]

I don't think there's an easy answer involving blood magic or blood mages because it's all colored by our perceptions, Medhia. We know about the good and the bad performed with blood magic. The Tevinters did monstrous things with blood magic, while the Wardens have used the same magic to end the Blights by creating the members of their order and further their cause in defeating the darkspawn. I think it's ultimately the choice of our protagonist to decide. Since my own aim is to see the mages emancipated, I'm not going to turn down Merrill's help, but I can see why yours would.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We aren't going to agree on this issue, Lotion. I'm curious, though: if Merrill uses blood magic, will you not accept her as a companion because you don't trust blood mages?

Will have to see.

Not everything that we label on the forums as blood magic is really blood magic. Some things are hinted they MIGHT be blood magic (Dark Ritual, plachietries, Flinn sritual), but it's left hanging.

If messing with spitits is all Merril does (and it seems that way), that'd be Ok.
But full-on blood magic with mind control? That's a no-no. Forbidden territory.

But then again, this is a game and I have a thign for elves. Who knows.
After all, it's not real, so I won't have to live with any consequences...As a game choice.. I might take her with me. If I was a real inhabitant of TheDas? No way.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 06 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[randName]

I'm of the opinion that the Chantry is inheritable evil, while blood magic is not; the later is easily proven by playing a good blood mage (even easier by first playing one that betrays Connor, unlocking blood magic, restarting the game and picking it without killing Connor).

So now at least blood magic in a grey warden is not inheritable evil.


(a small additions, I don't view a member of the chantry as evil, just misguided) 

Modifié par randName, 06 mars 2011 - 02:19 .

[Marionetten]

Looking at blood slave and blood splatter I'd have to say that it's most certainly a sinister way of fighting your battles. Enslaving someone to make him battle his friends in the form of a deranged puppet and then blowing him up in a macabre fireworks display? Yeah, it's pretty dark stuff and I'm saying this as someone who intends to play a blood mage.

There is nothing humane or honorable about blood magic. It's an extremely vile form of magic with horrific outcomes. That said, Thedas isn't particularly humane or honorable. Might makes right is an all too common theme. And when it comes down to it I'd rather be the person with the knife than the victim. From my perspective it's just a matter of survival.

I also don't think templars have any right to condemn anything, being the lyrium addled addicts they are. 

Modifié par Marionetten, 06 mars 2011 - 02:24 .

[Chabodeux]

No offense, but you seem to forget what evil and good means. Demons arent evil!!! This is very IMPORTANT. They always follow THEIR OWN interests, they wish no harm to others untill it provides them something. In Dragons age demons are curious beings who wish to experience our world and gain power, as we all do in our real lives.

[Dangerfoot]

If blood magic is anything like blood-bending (which it seems to be) then yes.

But it's only really "bad" in the bizarre morality of Dragon Age. I mean is it more wrong to pull someone's blood out or light them on fire or encase them in stone? All of those things seem pretty awful.

Modifié par Dangerfoot, 06 mars 2011 - 02:28 .

[Chabodeux]

Marionetten, war is always "dark" and bloody. Does the means matter at all?! By enslaving your enemy and making him die for your cause, you save the lives of your own, probably, good people.
Not like burning someone alive would be such a honorable way to punish a thief!

[ElijahHawke]

Well, it could be looked upon as evil by the Chantry, but, seeing as Blood Magic is the only human-reliant form of magic, the Chantry seems to be missing the point. All other specializations draw upon the energy of the Fade/demons.

[SansSariph]

Wish people would stop using Grey Wardens as an argument. Who cares if they use blood magic? It doesn't make the GW blood mages good people.

I was on the side of "it's a tool!" but the more I think about it, the more dubious I am. Looking at the new blood magic tree it's seeming pretty grim. To pick that tree and still be a "good person" would require you to investing in blood magic and sacrifice. No other abilties without turning into a horrible sadist.

The updated blood control (they die and/or explode when you're done with them?), grim sacrifice (the intent being to kill your compansions?)? No way to use those abilities if you're honestly roleplaying a "good" character.

The new 'blood wound' is more hit or miss, but I think it's too sadistic a spell to be used by a mage who has cleaner ways of killing people.

I think I'll end up roleplaying a mage who picks up blood magic with the best of intentions, but his progress down the blood magic tree mirrors his own giving into temptation. The further down that rabbit hole you go, the more you're kissing your own moral qualms goodbye.

[LobselVith8]

I care, SansSariph, because the Tevinter and the Wardens are two groups who have used blood magic for dramatically different reasons and illustrate how blood mages aren't all the same.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Really? The same? How can it be even remotely the same?

People can be manipulative, but that is very limited. It requires a lot of planing, time and effort to manipulate someone. It's not at all easy - few can really be called master manipulators. And there are limits.
And you can fight against manipulators - you an expose them, you can trick them.

Can a manipulator trick you into killing yourself? Killing your friends? Unless you're very unstable, hardly. And how long will it take him to do that?
A blood mage can make you kill yourself with a snap of a finger. He can make you murder your wife, your child, rob a bank, and drop your pants and bend over with ease.

A blood mage FORCES himself into your mind.
No..it's not ever remotely the same.

We're talking about trust and why it's problematic, not mind control generally. I also said the process was different. It's the result that remains the same.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Ehh..what?

The reason "trust" is problematic here is because it is something they might impose upon you and you cannot know it is real.

You said: "You can never trust a telepath", which is untrue, if you've been made to trust them.

Then you said: "Trusting telepaths is foolish", which if that trust is not real means that it was foolish to have been made to trust them.

So that's not really your point either.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
it's a kind of power that will be abused. There's no "if's" about it.

Why?

Modifié par Ziggeh, 06 mars 2011 - 03:42 .

[randName]

SansSariph wrote...

Wish people would stop using Grey Wardens as an argument. 

Don't be a ******; GWs can use BM without the risk of corruption from daemons since they already are corrupted.

Also the question is - is blood magic inherently evil/bad.

just a few examples that it's nto is more than enough to prove this premiss false.

[pezit]

Just cause it increases chances of corruption doesn't mean everyone will fall for it. The chantry is evil because they take away innocent peoples freedom out of fear of what they might do, not what they have done.

[SansSariph]

randName wrote...

SansSariph wrote...

Wish people would stop using Grey Wardens as an argument. 

Don't be a ******; GWs can use BM without the risk of corruption from daemons since they already are corrupted.

Also the question is - is blood magic inherently evil/bad.

just a few examples that it's nto is more than enough to prove this premiss false.

What is this I don't even

Demonic corruption and darkspawn corruption are different things, which is completely unrelated because we're talking about moral corruption anyway.

I'm saying you can't use "GREY WARDENS USED BLOOD MAGIC SO CLEARLY IT'S NOT NECESSARILY EVIL" as a counterexample, because it's not a counterexample. Being a Grey Warden is not synonymous with being a good person. There are zero conclusions you can draw about Grey Warden blood mages, because we have no case-by-case examples to anaylze. They are therefore completely irrelevant to the discussion.

[LobselVith8]

You can argue the Joining is blood magic. Duncan addresses that some Warden mages are using blood magic against the darkspawn, who are the greatest threat to all life on Thedas. We know Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian is relatively harmless. SansSariph, you're welcome to disagree, but I don't see what's irrelevant about addressing that some blood mages are focusing their energies on stopping the greatest threat that humanity has ever faced. Personally, I don't see focusing blood magic against the darkspawn as evil. If the efforts of these blood mages among the Grey Wardens are focused on helping the people of Thedas, I think it should be addressed in a thread that focuses on blood magic and bloog mages.

[Ziggeh]

LobselVith8 wrote...
If the efforts of these blood mages among the Grey Wardens are focused on helping the people of Thedas, I think it should be addressed in a thread that focuses on blood magic and bloog mages.

If it's neutral, a tool, and the question concerns it's usage, then we already have the answer as to whether evil is inherent: it's neutral. If it's inherently evil, then it's usage is relatively immaterial.

[Lotion Soronarr]

ElijahHawke wrote...

Well, it could be looked upon as evil by the Chantry, but, seeing as Blood Magic is the only human-reliant form of magic, the Chantry seems to be missing the point. All other specializations draw upon the energy of the Fade/demons.

Eh? All magic draws from the Fade.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...
We're talking about trust and why it's problematic, not mind control generally. I also said the process was different. It's the result that remains the same.

The process is VERY different (and the difference is not irrelevant) and the result is not completley the same.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Ehh..what?

The reason "trust" is problematic here is because it is something they might impose upon you and you cannot know it is real.

You said: "You can never trust a telepath", which is untrue, if you've been made to trust them.

Then you said: "Trusting telepaths is foolish", which if that trust is not real means that it was foolish to have been made to trust them.

So that's not really your point either.

You want to argue semantics now?

The point is that one cannot trust them BECAUSE they can influence your mind.
Can they make you "trust" them? Yes. Can they also don't bother with it, but jsut f*** you up in a million other ways? They sure can.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
it's a kind of power that will be abused. There's no "if's" about it.

Why?

Because it's too tempting and addictive.

Sure, people would start small and use if for whatever they consider good. But it wouldn't stop there.
Mind control is the ULTIMATE abusable power.

Mental fortitude to resist temptation is not a constant. It fluctuates. Cahnges with conditions. A tired, angry man..jelaous, in a hurry, irritated..or jsut plain depressed...all of that influence.
So even if there is a person I could trust with not abusing that power at his best - he won't stay at his best.

His resolve will falter. The temptation won't.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

You can argue the Joining is blood magic. Duncan addresses that some Warden mages are using blood magic against the darkspawn, who are the greatest threat to all life on Thedas. We know Finn's ritual to locate the Eluvian is relatively harmless. SansSariph, you're welcome to disagree, but I don't see what's irrelevant about addressing that some blood mages are focusing their energies on stopping the greatest threat that humanity has ever faced. Personally, I don't see focusing blood magic against the darkspawn as evil. If the efforts of these blood mages among the Grey Wardens are focused on helping the people of Thedas, I think it should be addressed in a thread that focuses on blood magic and bloog mages.

What do you know about those mages? Nothing except that they are Grey Wardens. Do we know if blood mage GW's abuse their powers? We don't...Well, the only example we do have, Avernus, does abuse it.

And why are they Grey Wardens? Who knows. Grey Wardens aren't selected for their morality.

Really, GW bloodmages existing tells us nothing.

[Medhia Nox]

Umm.. Pezit, you've just described every government that has ever existed.

=====

I think the Joining IS blood magic, just like the phylacteries are blood magic (never confirmed to my knowledge). And look at the result of both of these.

The Joining. First, we are told that ALL Wardens are tricked into it (Loghain is forced into it). Nobody is told that :

1) You will suffer horrible nightmares (good?)

2) You will slowly begin to mutate. The first example is ravenous hunger. (forced mutation, is that good?)

3) You will either have to commit suicide (by running into an army of monsters in the Deep Roads) or become a Darkspawn - and you were never given the choice.

4) The Grey Wardens create a myth of super heroism to deceive the populace so they can get recruits. (good?) The Wardens are not heroes just by becoming Wardens - they're a tool for a purpose. Look at the option to be an evil Warden - he's still used for the purpose, but he's no hero. That doesn't even take into account Wardens when there is no Blight.

5) They will kill you before they will allow you to reveal the secrets of the Joining. (it's the only reason that Duncan kills Jory). Is that good?

====

The phylacteries are a form of tagging prisoners. Is that good? Don't blame the Chantry - the mages themselves (First Enchanter Irving in particular) perform it and support it as a control over their fellows should they become psycho.

Funny thing is - I actually promote the phylacteries. It's evil (opinion) - but Dragon Age isn't about easy answers which is something I like about it. Yes, I oppose blood magic - but yes, I'm for the use of phylacteries.