500 réponses à ce sujet

[Angelraid]

Haussier wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

People can lie to you. But you can find out the truth.
Normal people cannot manipualte others so easily.

Power corrupts..but not all power corrupts eaqually. Not all power is equally tempting..equally easy to use..has equal consequences or gains.

Can you really think of any other power that would be more tempting (save for reality warping)?
Mind control enables you to get anything you want, is easily concieved and abused.
It's simply not something that a man - any many - should ever have.

It would only lead to a lot of pain and suffering in real life, and so in any fictional world too.

 I've always been of the opinion that power is like a bright light that reveals every flaw that has before been hidden in the darkness of powerlessness. So in essence power doesn't corrupt it simply reveals the true nature of a person.

@ Lotion

I can think of one. The power of ignorance. Now before you call foul just hear me out. Ignorance like no other power has the capacity for evil. Ignorance enables one to justify thier actions as irrefutably right and frees it's wielder from responsability or guilt enabling them to commit even the most heinous actions without hesitation. Also Ignorance does not require consious effort to weild and can overide a persons reason withouth them even being aware of it. And even more so because of how easily it can pe propagated through an entire population.

In the game you can see examples of this in many places. The Cult of Andraste, The Chantries Portrayal of Elves/Mages/Qunairi, The Qunairi themselves, Loghain... etc.

Not even just in the game, think of the real world. **** Germany, Salem Witch Trials, the Dark Ages, The Black Death, Slavery, The Crusades... i think you get the point. All fueled by ignorance.

But does that mean ignorance is evil? No. Like all powers it is the person wielding it who determins whether it is a force for good or evil. Ignorance can also be a focusing Force that drives and individual or society to seek knowledge and truth. Such people of this calliber have led to discoveries like electricity, modern medicine, and practacally every technological advance to date that we all take for granted.

Aslo on Mind Control. One could easily make the arguement that mind control and something like say, brainwashing are pantamount to the same thing. Such as the Chantry has brainwashed nearly all of Thedas into believing what it says w/o question. Like that girl in the tower who is so conviced that she is evil becuase she can use magic becuase the chantry tells her so that she want's to commit suicide even though she hasn't done anything wrong.

Also Mind control is not and end all be all power. As it clearly has limitation on scope, as described by Avernus, and it is totally possible to defend against it as shown in the Circle of Magi Quest Line.

Finally sorry for the wall of text :innocent:

@Haussier

Enteresting perspective, Like power doesn't change a person, it just amplifies the underlying qualities that define the person that where always there. I like the way you think

Modifié par Geth Hunter Alpha, 07 mars 2011 - 08:30 .

[draken-heart]

 i do not think blood magic is inherently "bad". maybe a little extreme but not bad

reason: blood magic is the only magic that is not tied to the fade, but is connected to the lifeblood of humanity-blood.  it can be used to control people and kill them. most blood mages, however use it for survival rather than power trips.

[KenKenpachi]

It can be very corrupting given that the person is not strong enough to control it. Power often consumes those who wield it often as they are blind to the fact they can't control it. Its like Being a Sith, is calling on the darkside bad in and of its self, or is it what you do with it. Thats why I base my morals on cause and effect.  But given it uses life energy and controls others its open to abuse. In many Ways the Mages of DA are Jedi. Most people don't trust them as they kno what they would do with such power.

And correct Haussier. If you want to see how a man or woman may act give them power. To see what they truely are, given them even more power.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 07 mars 2011 - 08:40 .

[CitizenSnips]

No.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...
@ Lotion

I can think of one. The power of ignorance.

Ignorance is a power?

In the game you can see examples of this in many places. The Cult of Andraste, The Chantries Portrayal of Elves/Mages/Qunairi, The Qunairi themselves, Loghain... etc.


Not even just in the game, think of the real world. **** Germany, Salem Witch Trials, the Dark Ages, The Black Death, Slavery, The Crusades... i think you get the point. All fueled by ignorance.

Erm..no.
Have to correct you here - Crusades weren't started because of ignorance...and neither is there ignorance in the Chantry's teachings on mages.

Also Mind control is not and end all be all power. As it clearly has limitation on scope, as described by Avernus, and it is totally possible to defend against it as shown in the Circle of Magi Quest Line.

It is the biggest power a mage can wield. It has limitation in that a mage cannot influence a lot of people at the same time, but that's not big of  limitation.
And iti practicly has no defense..the Litany? Used by mages to disrupt the process of mind control before it takes hold. t's not a viable defense for the common man.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Haussier wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

People can lie to you. But you can find out the truth.
Normal people cannot manipualte others so easily.

Power corrupts..but not all power corrupts eaqually. Not all power is equally tempting..equally easy to use..has equal consequences or gains.

Can you really think of any other power that would be more tempting (save for reality warping)?
Mind control enables you to get anything you want, is easily concieved and abused.
It's simply not something that a man - any many - should ever have.

It would only lead to a lot of pain and suffering in real life, and so in any fictional world too.

 I've always been of the opinion that power is like a bright light that reveals every flaw that has before been hidden in the darkness of powerlessness. So in essence power doesn't corrupt it simply reveals the true nature of a person.

So some people simply are evil and some simply are good? They don't change? Some people are incorruptable?

I'm sorry, but that just doesn't sound right.

There is a limit to a persons mental fortutide just as there is a limit to physical endurance. Put enogh pressure on a bone, and it will break. Put enough temptation and enough opportunity, and the mental barriers will break too.
Neither a mans mind or body are limitless.

Suppose you do have the power of mind control..and are a good person. You'd start using that powers sparringly, for good purposes. but sooner or later, that power will corrupt you.
Like all things, it would start innocently enough - you're ina hurry and getting a ticket and use it get away scott free. Or going to a movie with a GF, but the last tickets were just sold out..so you use it to get tickets from another pair.
Or that neighbor was friggin rude and didn't return your drill...how about some payback.
Or being really curious as to what someone thinks about you...you can make them tell you. No secrets from you.

A million daily situations were it would be SO EASY to abuse that power...so easy..and no one would know. No one would notice. And every time you get angry, depressed, get drunk or are in any emotional state that clouds your judgment..that power is still there. That temptation is still there.
And each time you use it it would be come easier to use it again...because it makes your life so easier. You'd rationalize it at first..maybe untill the very end.

It's too daangerous, too tempting and too abusable...like no other power.

[CitizenSnips]

Objects/things without free will cannot be good, bad, righteous, or evil. They just are.

[Angelraid]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...
@ Lotion

I can think of one. The power of ignorance.

Ignorance is a power?

In the game you can see examples of this in many places. The Cult of Andraste, The Chantries Portrayal of Elves/Mages/Qunairi, The Qunairi themselves, Loghain... etc.


Not even just in the game, think of the real world. **** Germany, Salem Witch Trials, the Dark Ages, The Black Death, Slavery, The Crusades... i think you get the point. All fueled by ignorance.

Erm..no.
Have to correct you here - Crusades weren't started because of ignorance...and neither is there ignorance in the Chantry's teachings on mages.

Also Mind control is not and end all be all power. As it clearly has limitation on scope, as described by Avernus, and it is totally possible to defend against it as shown in the Circle of Magi Quest Line.

It is the biggest power a mage can wield. It has limitation in that a mage cannot influence a lot of people at the same time, but that's not big of  limitation.
And iti practicly has no defense..the Litany? Used by mages to disrupt the process of mind control before it takes hold. t's not a viable defense for the common man.

A ) Indeed it is the power to act without reasoning. Or the power to drive
one to greater understanding. Not all power is fireballs and explosions.

Once again indeed they are. The Crusades were born form the same
Ignoracne that drives terrorist today. We're right, you're wrong, so we
should kill you. And the Chantry is ignorant about Mages. They don't
understand mages and thus fear them and use that to justify thier
treatment of them. Just for example in the game the Chantry say
abominations are evil and must be killed Immediately. But Wynne was an
abomination according to the Chantries views. She was a good person, but
I bet if the chantry found out they woundn't make the distinction.

C) Mind Controlling one guard isn't going to be a great boon when your fighting an army hunting you. So I would consider it's scope to be a major obstacle to its effective use. Furthermore the way it is presented in the game using mind control on someone doesn't just make the your slaves for eternity rather it merely alters thier perceptions on specific ideas. Such as makeing someone believe they hadn't seen you when they had. Also the litany would be of great use to a common man cuase it clearly didnt require magical abilities to use. My rogue used it just fine.

Some would say the greatest power is the power over life and death. Which anyone can wield. And if you think that that turning enimies to allies is instead, raise dead would be much more practical. Seeing as it isn't considered evil for some reason.

Modifié par Geth Hunter Alpha, 07 mars 2011 - 09:37 .

[Travie]

*Find complex moral argument for the corruption of power and what good and evil is*

I'm so proud of you guys

[Angelraid]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's too daangerous, too tempting and too abusable...like no other power.

You mean like the power to kill?

I'm sure that even you can't ague that its not very dangerous (I mean it's killing that pretty much the defination of dangerous), very abusable (considering how easy it is to kill someone with practacally anything at all), and like any power it's aptitude for being tempting is really defined by the wielder's morales and strength of character.

Modifié par Geth Hunter Alpha, 07 mars 2011 - 09:43 .

[Rake21]

Maybe blood magic can be used for good, but take a look at everytime we see it in Origins.

Demons being summoned, people's minds being destroyed, cults wielding it for thier own insane ends...

Hell, your charecter can't even learn it in the game unless you sell a child's soul to a demon.

[draken-heart]

 what about merrill? she uses blood magic, and it doesn't seem that she wants to destroy everything.

Modifié par draken-heart, 07 mars 2011 - 09:47 .

[Angelraid]

Rake21 wrote...

Maybe blood magic can be used for good, but take a look at everytime we see it in Origins.

Demons being summoned, people's minds being destroyed, cults wielding it for thier own insane ends...

Hell, your charecter can't even learn it in the game unless you sell a child's soul to a demon.

It should be noted that even if you chose to be good (Like me) and saved connor, in most casses it required the use of blood magic in order to do it. (unless also like me you went back and got irving to help you enter the fade but that is besides the point)

[Rake21]

draken-heart wrote...

 what about merrill? she uses blood magic, and it doesn't seem that she wants to destroy everything.

Well, like I said, we have yet to meet anyone "good" who used the stuff.  Normally crazy mages and unholy abominations.  I never said that they all were like that.  Maybe Merrill will be the exception.

[Rake21]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Rake21 wrote...

Maybe blood magic can be used for good, but take a look at everytime we see it in Origins.

Demons being summoned, people's minds being destroyed, cults wielding it for thier own insane ends...

Hell, your charecter can't even learn it in the game unless you sell a child's soul to a demon.

It should be noted that even if you chose to be good (Like me) and saved connor, in most casses it required the use of blood magic in order to do it. (unless also like me you went back and got irving to help you enter the fade but that is besides the point)

Good point, but it still requires you to kill a (albeit obnoxious) charecter to save his life.  It saves an innocent by killing another.

[Angelraid]

Rake21 wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Rake21 wrote...

Maybe blood magic can be used for good, but take a look at everytime we see it in Origins.

Demons being summoned, people's minds being destroyed, cults wielding it for thier own insane ends...

Hell, your charecter can't even learn it in the game unless you sell a child's soul to a demon.

It should be noted that even if you chose to be good (Like me) and saved connor, in most casses it required the use of blood magic in order to do it. (unless also like me you went back and got irving to help you enter the fade but that is besides the point)

Good point, but it still requires you to kill a (albeit obnoxious) charecter to save his life.  It saves an innocent by killing another.

Well she volenteered, it's not like she was forced. Generally speaking such sacrifices are considered noble and heroic like take a bullet of the presedent. And your right, she was really freaking annoying. I almost felt bad for saving her, If I wasn't such a goody two shoes I'd probly have let her die just to spare connor and the arl from her.

Modifié par Geth Hunter Alpha, 07 mars 2011 - 10:23 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...
A ) Indeed it is the power to act without reasoning. Or the power to drive
one to greater understanding. Not all power is fireballs and explosions.

By that logic, breathing is also a power.

Ignorance is defined as lack of something (knowledge), not possesing of something.
And given that one almsot never knows everything, there is always some ignorance at work.

Once again indeed they are. The Crusades were born form the same
Ignoracne that drives terrorist today. We're right, you're wrong, so we
should kill you. And the Chantry is ignorant about Mages. They don't
understand mages and thus fear them and use that to justify thier
treatment of them. Just for example in the game the Chantry say
abominations are evil and must be killed Immediately. But Wynne was an
abomination according to the Chantries views. She was a good person, but
I bet if the chantry found out they woundn't make the distinction.

No. Crusades started because christian lands were being taken over and were calling for help. 3/4 of the Christian countries in the east were taken over before they were started. It was a defensive war in any sense of the world. But that is not the topic for this forum.
Please, let's drop the crusade subject (or take it to P.M.)

As far as the Chantry goes - no, the are not ignorant of mages. They know how magic works. They know very well what mages can do and what they can become. This is opposite of ignorance, as their actions are based on having knowledge and first-hand experience with mages.

Was Wynne an abomination? Debatable. She was't possesed, as she fully retained her personality adn will..and it was by a Spirit, not a Demon. The difference may be semantics, but than again, most definitions are. So that question is left hanging in the air. I have no idea how the Chantry would react to Wynne.

C) Mind Controlling one guard isn't going to be a great boon when your fighting an army hunting you. So I would consider it's scope to be a major obstacle to its effective use. Furthermore the way it is presented in the game using mind control on someone doesn't just make the your slaves for eternity rather it merely alters thier perceptions on specific ideas. Such as makeing someone believe they hadn't seen you when they had. Also the litany would be of great use to a common man cuase it clearly didnt require magical abilities to use. My rogue used it just fine.

Oh no? You mind control the liutenant ot take you to the captain..the captain to take you to the general..the general to take you to the king..and then the king.
There is practicly no limit to what one can do with mind control, if only a little brain is applied.

And regarding the Litany - you had a mage in your party.

and

The Litany of Adralla disrupts the casting of mind control spells. Use
the Litany whenever a creature tries to dominate another with magic, and
it will interrupt the casting. Once the spell is in effect and a
character is under a blood mage's power, it is too late.
--From Codex entry: The Litany of Adralla

[Lotion Soronarr]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

It's too daangerous, too tempting and too abusable...like no other power.

You mean like the power to kill?

I'm sure that even you can't ague that its not very dangerous (I mean it's killing that pretty much the defination of dangerous), very abusable (considering how easy it is to kill someone with practacally anything at all), and like any power it's aptitude for being tempting is really defined by the wielder's morales and strength of character.

No. Everyone has that "power". It's not really that special and it's very limited in how, when and for what you can use it. It's far less abusable, sicne it's far less practical.

You can go on and kill, but that is a visible act, one that is difficult to hide. And what you can get from it is limited. Hardly tempting.

Mind control makes it easy to abuse that power - for practicly ANYTHING - AND get away with it. Not to mention you can use it to kill cleanly - make a person kill himself, without trace of your involvment. Jsut for that alone, it already surpases the pwoer to judt kill.


Will you kill to get away from getting a parking ticket? Will you kill to get a discount? Will you kill to a get a girl in bed? No, you won't. Killing is really unpractical for your future endavours.

So the very notion that killing someone is just as abusable as mind control is laughable. Mind control is a easy to use multi-tool that can be used for pretty much any situation in life, at almsot any time, and it's easy to get away with.

Temptation of a power is not defined by the wielder, but by the specifics of the power in question - it's potential, usage specifics and consequences.

I'm really surprised that I have to explain to you the obvious difference....

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 08 mars 2011 - 07:23 .

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Depends on who you ask, really.

Christianity would tell you all magic is evil. Period. End of story.

However, others (many pagan religions) say no magic is good or evil, it's the intent behind it that colors it.  Now, Blood Magic doesn't really have many "good" uses, so the argument could be made it's all bad, however if you find a way to use it in a good or neutral way (like how Finn uses it to find the Lights of Arlathan in Witch Hunt), then no it's not bad.

Now, in the Dragon Age world, it's still based on who you ask.  Ask the Chantry? Blood Magic is evil. Period. End of Story.  Ask a Blood Mage? They might say different.

[Yamsandjams]

I think it's like Renegade Shepard. Or maybe even Ammon Jerro. Has more of an "antihero" vibe to it, making the choices that'll save the world in the end, but sparing no cost. The ends justifies the means kind of thing.

[LobselVith8]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

As far as the Chantry goes - no, the are not ignorant of mages. They know how magic works. They know very well what mages can do and what they can become. This is opposite of ignorance, as their actions are based on having knowledge and first-hand experience with mages.

Debates have raged with no consensus over the Chantry and the mages. Isn't a fundamental part of Dragon Age that we can decide for ourselves who is right and wrong, what we believe to be correct, as the protagonist? In the Magi Origin we can side with the Loyalist way of thinking (in discussion with Niall) or the Libertarian way of thinking in other instances, including discussion with Wynne where we can call the Circle a 'prison' and say it's an oppressive place, neither of the statements she ever contests. The very existance of the Magi boon is an example of how a Grey Warden can see the Chantry and the templars as wrong, but it seems like an issue that has no universal consensus (much like the debates about Loghain).

[wildfly]

"The blood mage sucks the life force from an ally to regain health"
i bet the companions of the blood mage think it's evil

i think it's evil and i do it only with my CE wardens, but then, i also thought Sten is evil when he slaughtered his saviors, an entire family, including kids because he's 'got panicked when he couldn't find his sword'. but most of the ppl love Sten and can easily overlook such minor details as a few dead kids...

Modifié par wildfly, 08 mars 2011 - 04:32 .

[TEWR]

wildfly wrote...

"The blood mage sucks the life force from an ally to regain health"
i bet the companions of the blood mage think it's evil

i think it's evil and i do it only with my CE wardens, but then, i also thought Sten is evil when he slaughtered his saviors, an entire family, including kids because he's 'got panicked when he couldn't find his sword'. but most of the ppl love Sten and can easily overlook such minor details as a few dead kids...

if Sten had killed a Mabari puppy, then people would despise him.


Sten: A family brought me to their farmhold and saved my life. When I awoke, I noticed my sword was missing and in my panic I killed them. Even the children....
Player: Well that's not too bad. A few dead kids don't really matter.
Sten:.... and their Mabari puppy.
Player: You did WHAT?!?! How could you murder a Mabari puppy?! WTF is wrong with you?!

[SunnKingg]

SunnKingg wrote...



I have watched this thread for a while, and have seen a lot of back and forth. I believe now is the time for me to add something.

I never understood why people see sematics as a trivial thing. To argue sematics is to argue what something means, and that is the most important part of the argument. Arguing semantics and finding out what it is you are arguing should always come first. We must first ask ourselves

1. what is blood magic (not in terms of good and evil, but the mechanics)
2. what is good
3. what is evil
4. who uses it and are they good or evil

once we get our concepts straight as a group then we can debat.

After some time of thinking during my dragon age 2 playthrough I am ready to answer my own questions.

1. blood magic is the use of blood from a willing person, an unwilling person, or yourself to power spells. It relies on the physical world more so than the fade.

2/3. This is where most people give up or spend their time arguing. I am giving you my outlook on good and evil, and do not want you to think I am enforcing this as fact. I await with anticipation for your reactions to this section. Good and Evil are polar opposits, and are extreme absolutes. They are not open to wide interpritation in my view. For example, killing someone is always an evil act, so to refrain form killing someone, even a mass murderer, will always be good. However, good and evil have subcategories that are open to a greater veriety of interpritation, which are Right and Wrong. An evil act can be the right thing to do. Likewise, a good act can be the wrong thing to do. For example, even though killing another is always wrong, if it is done to save the lives of thousands or millions it is the right thing. In addition, stealing is always evil, but if the theft saves a life or fights corruption it is right. Vice versa, if you let a convicted and admitted mass murderer live and he kills again your good dead was the wrong one. I find myself believing that most good acts are right. In terms of blood magic, harming another, even if willing, is always evil, and to harm yourself is always evil. However, if that evil saves a life then it is right. In dragon age the wardens use blood magic to fight the darkspawn. If they cut themselves it is a self inflicted evil and if they use another's blood it is also an evil, but if by commiting that evil they rid the world of a few more darkspawn then that evil was the right thing. Likewise, if a blood mage uses his own or another's blood to kill an innocent, or uses his blood magic to control an innocent's mind then that is wrong.

4. Blood magic is evil, but it can be used for right and wrong. I have realized that there is no definite conclusion to this conundrum. Only the way the magic is used can decide if it is right or wrong.

Others my say that this view is short sighted or closed minded, but I believe it to be the opposite. The fact that a good or evil act can be right or wrong shows that the world is not black and white, for the most part. The world is a rainbow of colors that aren't even in the spectrum. When I first started thinking about this I wanted to prove that blood magic was good, but I found that it is evil. However, I am confident in my finding that even this evil can be the right thing. I hope that this post at least intertains you. The arguement shouldn't be about blood magic being good or evil. It should be about wether certain uses of blood magic are right or wrong.

[Medhia Nox]

Whatever helps you sleep at night - maleficar filth.