500 réponses à ce sujet

[JamesX]

fighterchicks wrote...

Wait, was it ever explained how Jowan did learn blood magic? I always assumed it was from a demon. 0_o

Blood Magic can be taught from person to person.  >.> Or how else do your other party member learn it?

Jowan picked it up from the Blood mages in the tower.  Very sure he didn't learn it from a demon - or he would have already be an abomination (Too weak willed to resist demon possession).

[TJPags]

JamesX wrote...

TJPags wrote...
Really?

Hmmm  ..  .who did Anders, Wynne, Morrigan and Velanna abuse?  They can all be blood mages, you know.

That is because as a Player you set them up as Blood mages.  In actual game lore they would never be blood mages.  That is attributed more as the player's lack of role-plaing than world setting

The fix is because the original poster seems to indicate that the only reason it is labeled as evil is because it gives he mages advantages against the Templars.

Which I fixed because that is not as accurate as that Blood Mages are feared because they are the easiest path to power and can readily lead itself to using other people's blood for their path to power.  A Normal mage has far less use for other people.  Grabbing another magic user or even peasants would do him/her little good.  While a Blood Mage has all the incentive in the world to kidnap and use other people to fuel his magic.

etc. etc.  It by itself is not evil, but its use can readily lead to abuse - and many who pursuit its path are doing so exactly for that reason.  it is a quick path to power, and those who seek it often are doing so because they want that power.  Again it is a generalization.

Yes, well, then the game lore is broken,

Seriously, if I can create a mage PC, teach them Blood Magic, give it to Wynne, Morrigan, Anders, Velanna, even that guy from WH, and none of them do evil, start consorting with demons, etc - it contradicts the whole "blood mages are always evil" thing.  If that's a concern, don't let the PC use it.

The game also, btw, contradicts the whole "all-powerful blood mage" concept that I think the game tries to give, and that I think a lot of people who discuss this topic seem to believe.  We see no all powerful blood mages in the game - we barely see any halfway powerful blood mages.  And no, Uldred was not a blood mage - he was an abomination.

Finally, while it's an easy thing to abuse, so is regular magic.  Any halfway decent mage can toss a fireball around, use winters breath, toss lightning at people, etc.  All they need is some lyrium to fuel up - and lyrium seems to be pretty readily available around Thedas, given how many vendors sell it.

[ExistsAlready]

Demons CAN teach Blood Magic. It's not explicitly stated that demons MUST teach Blood Magic.

[Alanosborn1991]

Dark Knight X wrote...

I'm planning on making my Lady Hawke a good blood mage, so no, I don't think blood mage is inherently bad. It's how you use it or the person using it ( or abusing it ) that makes it evil.

My blood mage Lady Hawke will be a force of good and justice in Kirkwall........

Heresy!!!!! My Evil Mage Lady Hawke will kill every single Templar in the world with Anders as her lover in tow!

Guess who the new King and Queen of Kirkwall is!

BOOOOOYA!

[AustinKain]

My first playthrough will be a mage with blood mage & force mage specs. I am going to call him the Bleeding Sith as he will be using lighting more than any other spells.

[fighterchick]

To be fair, I don't think blood magic is necessarily *evil*, but to the people of the world in dragon age, it's understandably why they react the way they do. They already fear mages, I mean, would you want your neighbor who could blast you with lightning, freeze you solid, set your house ablaze, making you a walking bomb, raise corpses to set after you, and all the other things mages could do? Add to it that they can now boil your blood and use it to fuel these other lovely spells? Or, you know, just control your will. So, inherently evil? Probably not, but it's just one more thing to add to the mage list that makes people think they are evil and need to be locked away.

[Incantrix]

I believe that no power is "evil" unless you use it do evil. So no, I don't think blood magic is bad.

[Rockworm503]

PurebredCorn wrote...

Rockworm503 wrote...

It opens up the possibilities to demons coming through to our world. If misused it can make you an abomination and no one can argue that those things aren't evil. But all power is open to abuse. Power corrupts its that simple what makes Blood magic any less evil than a chantry that brain washes people and controls out of fear is beyond me.

Any mage, not just blood mages, are vulnerable to becoming an abomination.

well then the whole "blood mages are evil" thing makes even less sense to me.

[Zalocx]

I think the real reason why Blood Magic is considered evil is not because it can hurt people. Fireballs, arrows, sword and the like can all kill a person but non of those are considered "evil" but because it can control them. Remember the Chantry's go to quote is always "magic exists to serve man but never to rule over him" for a reason.

Personally i find myself agreeing. I would take death over becoming a helpless prisoner in my own body and being forced to watch as my limbs do what someone else commands. And thats not even getting into true mind control, where my very sense of self, the one thing that is truly and irrevocably mine, is yanked away from me. That loss of the core freedom that defines what a "person" is would be worse than any gruesome end. As they say: Liberty or Death

[dirftglass]

Argument:

No, blood magic is not "inherently bad".

"Bad" depends on a philosophical viewpoint, and there is no universal, "inherent" philosophical viewpoint.

THERE ARE, however, rational philosophical consequences of viewpoints that are culturally ingrained in most modern human cultures' "mentally healthy" adults, and are based on evolutionarily ingrained social behaviors, and blood magic by its very nature comes very close to violating these - and usually does.

So, while it may not be INHERENTLY bad, it's still pretty bad.

Modifié par dirftglass, 28 février 2011 - 04:30 .

[Alanosborn1991]

Everything can hurt/kill you when your in this "Dragon Age" of Thedas.

I mean everyone is allowed to carry swords that can murder people but you dont see the Chantry police chasing you on horses for carrying weapons.

[Ziggeh]

distinguetraces wrote...

Since every member of the Chantry relies on the blood magic of phylacteries to keep mages under control, seems to me like every member of the Chantry is a blood mage, at least by proxy.

Does the blood power the phylacteries search spell? Would that render it inert or something like that? I would think that would be the defintion, where as a spell that just involves blood would be something else. I can't imagine the magic from andrastes ashes was some specialised school know as "ash magic", it was just magic that involved ash.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 28 février 2011 - 04:35 .

[JamesX]

TJ

Yes, well, then the game lore is broken,

Don't confuse the latitude the programmer gives the player to make the game fun to the same as "Lore is broken."  Everyone would be up in arms about it if you cannot give the companions any specializations.

Just straight off the top, Oghren would NEVER be a champion.  Yet you can make him one.  No matter how ludicredious it seems.  Neither would Sten become a reaver, but you can still do it.  

Neither would Zavhren go into battle nakked without any weapons.  yet you can do it.

Neither would a sane person deliberately die to the Archdemon for the fun of it, but you can make your warden do it just for kicks.

Does that mean the game lore is broken?   The limitation of the game and the purpoes of it for entertainment is what makes those things possible.  Unless the writers justified it in their storyline then one cannot reasonably apply player's activitions as support for or against existing lore.  After all naked insane warden that dooms the world because he just wanted to do it is not part of the lore, and one cannot use that to support their view that the lore is broken because the game let you do that.

TJ

Seriously, if I can create a mage PC, teach them Blood Magic, give it to Wynne, Morrigan, Anders, Velanna, even that guy from WH, and none of them do evil, start consorting with demons, etc - it contradicts the whole "blood mages are always evil" thing.  If that's a concern, don't let the PC use it.

The point of DA2 is so you can play a evil character or a good character as you see fit.  This is not a linear black and white game like Final Fantasy series.  So the game would have to make allowance for you to do it.  

TJ

The game also, btw, contradicts the whole "all-powerful blood mage" concept that I think the game tries to give, and that I think a lot of people who discuss this topic seem to believe.  We see no all powerful blood mages in the game - we barely see any halfway powerful blood mages.  And no, Uldred was not a blood mage - he was an abomination.

Actually Uldred is a blood mage.  he just turned into an abomination later.

As for "all-powerful blood mage" Tavinter is one of the single most powerful magic society in the world.  Their society is dominated by Blood mages.  When a ruthless society of kill or be killed environment consistantly produces a single type of magic as the most survivalble it means something.

TJ

Finally, while it's an easy thing to abuse, so is regular magic.  Any halfway decent mage can toss a fireball around, use winters breath, toss lightning at people, etc.  All they need is some lyrium to fuel up - and lyrium seems to be pretty readily available around Thedas, given how many vendors sell it.

No one said Magic is not abusable.  As for Lyrium, you know how expensive Lyrium is?  You can only get it from a very few sources.  Blood mage can benefit from Lyrium too.

let say a normal mage want to gain unlimited power.  He has to either gain a mountain of lyrium.

let say a blood mage want to gain unlimited power.  he can gain a mounta of lyrium and achieve it.  Or he can destroy a whole swath of peasants for that power.

Of the two which do you think is more evil? or more abusive? or easier?

Modifié par JamesX, 28 février 2011 - 04:39 .

[Chuvvy]

Yes, in the same way guns are inherently bad because they're used to kill people. So in the right hands it's not bad but in the wrong hands it is. Essentially it's just like pretty much everything.

[wambat74]

Vearsin wrote...

Blood magic is not inherently bad, but this doesn't mean much. Heroine isn't inherently bad either, however that dosen't mean anything good can come from it.

By that reasoning I should stop brushing my teeth because a Toothbrush can be used to kill someone. And diamorphine, which is Heroine, is used as a pain killer. Morphine, which is used to make Heroine, is also a pain killer.

[fighterchick]

wambat74 wrote...

Vearsin wrote...

Blood magic is not inherently bad, but this doesn't mean much. Heroine isn't inherently bad either, however that dosen't mean anything good can come from it.

By that reasoning I should stop brushing my teeth because a Toothbrush can be used to kill someone. And diamorphine, which is Heroine, is used as a pain killer. Morphine, which is used to make Heroine, is also a pain killer.

You mean you didn't get the memo that brushing your teeth is inherently bad?!

I think that this topic of debate is...difficult.  As some others have stated, it's not necessarily "inherently bad", but because of what it can be used for, it's hard to say that it's not a bad thing.  I mean, is there a single blood mage we come across in the game that is good, barring the Warden, or other NPCs we teach the specialization to? (Jowan doesn't count, he's not really bad, just a baffoon.)

[Haussier]

Blood magic isn't evil. People are.
It's just very easily abused... like guns heheh.

[LobselVith8]

Duncan mentions that Grey Wardens have resorted to blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, so I don't think it's evil. People can misuse any weapon or ability; it's all an issue of intent.

[Haussier]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Duncan mentions that Grey Wardens have resorted to blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, so I don't think it's evil. People can misuse any weapon or ability; it's all an issue of intent.

Heheh the joining is blood magic.. as well as the chantry using phylacteries to keep track of the mages.

[The Minority]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Duncan mentions that Grey Wardens have resorted to blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, so I don't think it's evil. People can misuse any weapon or ability; it's all an issue of intent.

Grey Wardens aren't at all the heroes people make them out to be. They do whatever it takes to quell the Blight, they would probably perform a bloody coup with blood magic to stop the Blight.

But blood magic is only bad if you use it for the wrong reasons.

[NRO TYN]

Dude Blood magic came from the Archdemon Dumat or so they say....Yea it all good doe xD

Found link http://dragonage.wik...iki/Blood_Magic

Modifié par II That Burn In Ya Ass II, 28 février 2011 - 04:54 .

[fighterchick]

Haussier wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Duncan mentions that Grey Wardens have resorted to blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, so I don't think it's evil. People can misuse any weapon or ability; it's all an issue of intent.

as well as the chantry using phylacteries to keep track of the mages.

That's another thing I never understood, how do templars, who can't do magic (save for their mana-draining techniques, if you can call that magic), track the mages through their blood in the phylacteries?  

[Naitaka]

That's another problem with blood magic. It seems that in the beginning blood magic has to do with spells powered by blood, which I imagine was what the elves taught the Tevinter humans in the first place. Later on though, it comes to include just about every spell that has something to do with blood. Those that manipulate blood, those that use blood as a component of the spell, etc. I mean, if I use magic to make my blood clot faster am I an evil blood mage now? Imo, Bioware left the whole business intentionally ambiguous just like the "whether the Maker exist?" question.

Modifié par Naitaka, 28 février 2011 - 04:57 .

[TJPags]

JamesX wrote...

TJ

Yes, well, then the game lore is broken,

Don't confuse the latitude the programmer gives the player to make the game fun to the same as "Lore is broken."  Everyone would be up in arms about it if you cannot give the companions any specializations.

Just straight off the top, Oghren would NEVER be a champion.  Yet you can make him one.  No matter how ludicredious it seems.  Neither would Sten become a reaver, but you can still do it.  

Neither would Zavhren go into battle nakked without any weapons.  yet you can do it.

Neither would a sane person deliberately die to the Archdemon for the fun of it, but you can make your warden do it just for kicks.

Does that mean the game lore is broken?   The limitation of the game and the purpoes of it for entertainment is what makes those things possible.  Unless the writers justified it in their storyline then one cannot reasonably apply player's activitions as support for or against existing lore.  After all naked insane warden that dooms the world because he just wanted to do it is not part of the lore, and one cannot use that to support their view that the lore is broken because the game let you do that.

Those are all things that would be out of character or plain dumb (in the Zev example) or silly (IMO, in the DR example).  None allow you to use something that is supposed to be so evil and terrible.  There are several other spcializations mages can have other than blood magic.  They didn't need to make it one. 

After all, we really don't see much blood magic in the game - Jowan (who's hardly a world destroying terror, btw), the "warn the blood mage relatives" (which is an example of the prohibition AGAINST this magic which we are allowed to use with impunity) and the "stop the blood mages in the forest" (which is an example of blood mages not being so powerful) quests from the Mages Collective, the "clean out the bloodmage house" quest in Denerim (again, evil bloodmages, but not so powerful).  And that's about it, isn't it?  I don't think people would be clamoring about not having been given this choice of specialization when we hardly see it, and it sure looks no different than regular magic.

JamesX wrote...

TJ

Seriously, if I can create a mage PC, teach them Blood Magic, give it to Wynne, Morrigan, Anders, Velanna, even that guy from WH, and none of them do evil, start consorting with demons, etc - it contradicts the whole "blood mages are always evil" thing.  If that's a concern, don't let the PC use it.

The point of DA2 is so you can play a evil character or a good character as you see fit.  This is not a linear black and white game like Final Fantasy series.  So the game would have to make allowance for you to do it.  

Sure, that's DA2.  But in DAO, where it started, blood magic was evil, remember?  Still is in DA2, I'd think.  Since we don't have DA2 yet, I used DAO and DAA examples.  It's all I got.  Besides, DAO was about saving the world, not about being some amorphous "good" or "bad" "champion".

JamesX wrote...

TJ

The game also, btw, contradicts the whole "all-powerful blood mage" concept that I think the game tries to give, and that I think a lot of people who discuss this topic seem to believe.  We see no all powerful blood mages in the game - we barely see any halfway powerful blood mages.  And no, Uldred was not a blood mage - he was an abomination.

Actually Uldred is a blood mage.  he just turned into an abomination later.

Was he?  I didn't know that.  Point remains, though, he was powerful because he was an abomination, not because he was a blood mage.

JamesX wrote...

As for "all-powerful blood mage" Tavinter is one of the single most powerful magic society in the world.  Their society is dominated by Blood mages.  When a ruthless society of kill or be killed environment consistantly produces a single type of magic as the most survivalble it means something.

But we don't see Tevinter.  We see Ferelden.  Although, come to think of it, we do see one of those "all-powerful Tevinter blood mages".  The slaver.  Who is not so all-powerful - Ser Cauthrien is a tougher fight, and she's not a age of any kind.

JamesX wrote...

TJ

Finally, while it's an easy thing to abuse, so is regular magic.  Any halfway decent mage can toss a fireball around, use winters breath, toss lightning at people, etc.  All they need is some lyrium to fuel up - and lyrium seems to be pretty readily available around Thedas, given how many vendors sell it.

No one said Magic is not abusable.  As for Lyrium, you know how expensive Lyrium is?  You can only get it from a very few sources.  Blood mage can benefit from Lyrium too.

let say a normal mage want to gain unlimited power.  He has to either gain a mountain of lyrium.

let say a blood mage want to gain unlimited power.  he can gain a mounta of lyrium and achieve it.  Or he can destroy a whole swath of peasants for that power.

Of the two which do you think is more evil? or more abusive? or easier?

Lyrium didn't seem so expensive to me when I was buying it for my mages.  <shrug>  And it sure seemed pretty widely available - Bodahn had it, Old Tegrim had it, the Wonders of Thedas had it, one of the guys in Orzemar had it (the crazy sounding one in the commons).  That's off the top of my head.  I'm pretty sure Lloyd had some, the bartender at the Gnawed Noble likely had some, the guy in the market in Amaranthine sold it, so did the bartender in the Crown and Lion.  Seems widely available, and not very expensive.

Either way, a mage can do anything a blood mage can, so far as killing people.  Either all magic is evil, or neither is inherently evil.  As others have said, even the creation school has some nasty spells in it.