Blood magic isn't just the ability to use blood instead of lyrium/mana. that would be a stupid reason to hate it even if it was self-destructive and you could harm people by casting spells with their lives. Actual blood magic spells are about mind control. I think that's what get people.
Chains themselves are not inherently evil, they are objects of utility and tools. If the most practical and common use for chains is to tie people up and make them slaves then that creates a problem. Thats essentially what blood magic does: make people into your slaves. You can't really justify that by going "But I am only going to mind control the bad people"
Is blood magic inherently "bad" ?
Débuté par
TheCreeper
, févr. 28 2011 03:30
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#77
Posté 28 février 2011 - 04:59
Insomniak
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Ah, another one of these threads - this debate never gets old 
Okay, so I believe that blood magic is not "inherently evil," but it often lends itself to evil purposes (As in the cases of Uldred and Jowan, and supposedly several Tevinter magisters). We have seen that it can be used for good, however, in the case of Morrigan's "Dark Ritual," which ultimately saves the life of the warden; or even the Joining Ritual itself (consuming Darkspawn blood to become Grey Wardens).
Sure, the Chantry gives the practice a bad rep (and with semi-good reason, considering the amount of damage it has caused and the ability to control minds), but we can't really take everything the Chantry says at face value. I mean, I personally wouldn't believe something simply because [Wesley] "The Order Dictates" [/Wesley]. They, like many other organizations with political power, have their own agenda, and are therefore perfectly capable of using propaganda to fuel their goals. In essence, blood magic, and many things associated with it, are easily misunderstood.
*Edited for grammar and clarity.
Okay, so I believe that blood magic is not "inherently evil," but it often lends itself to evil purposes (As in the cases of Uldred and Jowan, and supposedly several Tevinter magisters). We have seen that it can be used for good, however, in the case of Morrigan's "Dark Ritual," which ultimately saves the life of the warden; or even the Joining Ritual itself (consuming Darkspawn blood to become Grey Wardens).
Sure, the Chantry gives the practice a bad rep (and with semi-good reason, considering the amount of damage it has caused and the ability to control minds), but we can't really take everything the Chantry says at face value. I mean, I personally wouldn't believe something simply because [Wesley] "The Order Dictates" [/Wesley]. They, like many other organizations with political power, have their own agenda, and are therefore perfectly capable of using propaganda to fuel their goals. In essence, blood magic, and many things associated with it, are easily misunderstood.
*Edited for grammar and clarity.
Modifié par javajedi217, 28 février 2011 - 05:20 .
#78
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:02
the_one_54321
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My understanding is that blood magic is powered by the use of life, and permits the use of magic for mind control.
If that's accurate, it pretty much speaks for itself.
If that's accurate, it pretty much speaks for itself.
#79
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:07
Ziggeh
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Indeed, the "never to rule over him" part of the chant plays a big part, but I also think this further relates it to demons. You're taking hold of minds, in the way they do, and using the lifeforce of humans to power it, which again, is something demons do. While that doesn't make it strictly demonic, it can't help it's image.Zalocx wrote...
Actual blood magic spells are about mind control. I think that's what get people.
Personally, in this world I don't believe anything is inherently evil, that's an applied quality, but is the same true in Thedas? There are recognised positive and negative emotions, which I don't believe to be true of our world either, so I think there is a case for certain things having inherent qualities we ourselves might not apply.
#80
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:11
fighterchick
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Ziggeh wrote...
Indeed, the "never to rule over him" part of the chant plays a big part, but I also think this further relates it to demons. You're taking hold of minds, in the way they do, and using the lifeforce of humans to power it, which again, is something demons do. While that doesn't make it strictly demonic, it can't help it's image.Zalocx wrote...
Actual blood magic spells are about mind control. I think that's what get people.
But...but...but...my Hawke is going to become a blood mage, then control the city of Kirkwall until she becomes the Viscount. She shall rule over all her subjects with blood magic.
#81
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:12
Marbazoid
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Blood Magic is a method of casting spells that draws from life-force instead of "mana". This enables a mage to cast spells well beyond his normal capability, without the need for lyrium. Lyrium is policed by templars for a reason, and i think one of the main factors that blood magic is outlawed is for the same reason lyrium trade is heavily regulated. (to ensure noobs don't blow everyone up).
Conventional blood magic (using your blood to power spells) is not inherently evil. The technicality comes in where there are spells that can only be used via blood magic, and these spells are morally questionable ones such as mind domination.
I was under the impression that summoning demons was not specifically related to blood magic.
Conventional blood magic (using your blood to power spells) is not inherently evil. The technicality comes in where there are spells that can only be used via blood magic, and these spells are morally questionable ones such as mind domination.
I was under the impression that summoning demons was not specifically related to blood magic.
#82
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:15
Insomniak
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Marbazoid wrote...
Blood Magic is a method of casting spells that draws from life-force instead of "mana". This enables a mage to cast spells well beyond his normal capability, without the need for lyrium. Lyrium is policed by templars for a reason, and i think one of the main factors that blood magic is outlawed is for the same reason lyrium trade is heavily regulated. (to ensure noobs don't blow everyone up).
Conventional blood magic (using your blood to power spells) is not inherently evil. The technicality comes in where there are spells that can only be used via blood magic, and these spells are morally questionable ones such as mind domination.
I was under the impression that summoning demons was not specifically related to blood magic.
...And for profit
Call me cynical, but I think they also use blood magic as a sort of scape goat.
Modifié par javajedi217, 28 février 2011 - 05:17 .
#83
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:15
Zalocx
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Ziggeh wrote...
Indeed, the "never to rule over him" part of the chant plays a big part, but I also think this further relates it to demons. You're taking hold of minds, in the way they do, and using the lifeforce of humans to power it, which again, is something demons do. While that doesn't make it strictly demonic, it can't help it's image.Zalocx wrote...
Actual blood magic spells are about mind control. I think that's what get people.
Personally, in this world I don't believe anything is inherently evil, that's an applied quality, but is the same true in Thedas? There are recognised positive and negative emotions, which I don't believe to be true of our world either, so I think there is a case for certain things having inherent qualities we ourselves might not apply.
Well like the "Blood Magic = chains" analogy I used, I don't think Blood magic in and of itself is "inherently evil" any more than a hunk of metal loops are. But all tools have a purpose. The purpose of both slave-chains and most blood magic spells is to rob other beings of their free-will and their self control over their actions and thoughts. Which is REALLY hard to put into a good light reguardless of the inert nature of the tool you used to achive it
#84
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:15
Muertos13
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I'd say that Blood magic as a school is not inherently evil, but Blood Sacrifice seems extremely unethical.
#85
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:17
Marbazoid
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javajedi217 wrote...
Marbazoid wrote...
Blood Magic is a method of casting spells that draws from life-force instead of "mana". This enables a mage to cast spells well beyond his normal capability, without the need for lyrium. Lyrium is policed by templars for a reason, and i think one of the main factors that blood magic is outlawed is for the same reason lyrium trade is heavily regulated. (to ensure noobs don't blow everyone up).
Conventional blood magic (using your blood to power spells) is not inherently evil. The technicality comes in where there are spells that can only be used via blood magic, and these spells are morally questionable ones such as mind domination.
I was under the impression that summoning demons was not specifically related to blood magic.
...And for profit
Oh yer that too.
Modifié par Marbazoid, 28 février 2011 - 05:17 .
#86
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:24
Ziggeh
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Right, and I think the general consensus is that a tool is only as evil as it's usage, but my question is whether this point, which holds true in our reality is also true in Thedas.Zalocx wrote...
Well like the "Blood Magic = chains" analogy I used, I don't think Blood magic in and of itself is "inherently evil" any more than a hunk of metal loops are. But all tools have a purpose. The purpose of both slave-chains and most blood magic spells is to rob other beings of their free-will and their self control over their actions and thoughts. Which is REALLY hard to put into a good light reguardless of the inert nature of the tool you used to achive it
I don't consider "desire" to be negative, but there it is, feeding a demon. It's a setting with certain absolutes, and I think it's feasible that right and wrong is among them, and that there are things, creatures and objects to which they are inherent.
#87
Posté 28 février 2011 - 06:18
Darkhour
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megaz635 wrote...
Its taught by demons.
Demons are evil.
Mana Magic is taught by humans.
Humans are evil.
Up until the Battle of Denerim I killed more humans than darkspawn.
#88
Posté 28 février 2011 - 06:26
marcusgs221
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Zalocx wrote...
Blood magic isn't just the ability to use blood instead of lyrium/mana. that would be a stupid reason to hate it even if it was self-destructive and you could harm people by casting spells with their lives. Actual blood magic spells are about mind control. I think that's what get people.
Chains themselves are not inherently evil, they are objects of utility and tools. If the most practical and common use for chains is to tie people up and make them slaves then that creates a problem. Thats essentially what blood magic does: make people into your slaves. You can't really justify that by going "But I am only going to mind control the bad people"
there are other mind control spells that arent considered blood magic
#89
Posté 28 février 2011 - 06:36
Eclipse_9990
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Some dragons know blood magic... Does that make dragons bad? No that just makes them bad ass. The same rules apply to Blood Mages, and Grey Wardens.
Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 28 février 2011 - 06:37 .
#90
Posté 28 février 2011 - 06:42
HooblaDGN
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I suppose that it depends somewhat on your idea of the power and significance of blood. I will state beforehand that this comes from a largely religious perspective (I am Christian) and that I know that a more religious-driven view might invite scorn among the interwebs, but for those of you who can read the view without simply stereotyping me as a religious nut I will post said opinion.
It would seem to me that there is great power in the blood. I feel that Dragon Age definitely believes that as well, considering the powerful uses of blood magic and various lore bits (joining, need for grey wardens, architect's experiments). And a creature's blood seems to be tied to the core of its being, its life force or soul, if you will (stating the obvious, I know). This would mean that blood magic is the manipulation of a creature's life force/soul/whateveryoucallit.
From my own very biased and trying-to-be-Christian perspective, this would make blood magic an art that deals in exploiting something in others that should not be exploited in others. Jesus makes his own choice to sacrifice his own blood. Fine. But if we directly did it for him that would probably be bad. I would even judge it as a perversion.
But, your own blood or others', you're still in a sticky situation dealing with something that is so central to the core of being. So I would not say that it is inherently EVIL, but certainly that it is a BAD IDEA. It's screwing with things that should probably be left alone.
Now, you could apply the same thinking to many things. Magic itself. Weapons. All sorts of stuff. And certainly it's all stuff that my Grey Warden employs. But part of what makes Dragon Age so great to me is that, no matter how great you try to be, the cost of your choices will be high. You pay a steep price for most victories and for much of your power, just so that you can die in the end and stop an archdemon.
I mean, heck, being a Grey Warden and messing with darkspawn blood in the first place seems like a bad idea, but when the world is demanding that sacrifice, would THE higher power (or even ANY worthy higher power?) condemn you for trying to help in the only way you know how?
Hope at least some of that made any sense. Let me know if you need me to elaborate on anything.
It would seem to me that there is great power in the blood. I feel that Dragon Age definitely believes that as well, considering the powerful uses of blood magic and various lore bits (joining, need for grey wardens, architect's experiments). And a creature's blood seems to be tied to the core of its being, its life force or soul, if you will (stating the obvious, I know). This would mean that blood magic is the manipulation of a creature's life force/soul/whateveryoucallit.
From my own very biased and trying-to-be-Christian perspective, this would make blood magic an art that deals in exploiting something in others that should not be exploited in others. Jesus makes his own choice to sacrifice his own blood. Fine. But if we directly did it for him that would probably be bad. I would even judge it as a perversion.
But, your own blood or others', you're still in a sticky situation dealing with something that is so central to the core of being. So I would not say that it is inherently EVIL, but certainly that it is a BAD IDEA. It's screwing with things that should probably be left alone.
Now, you could apply the same thinking to many things. Magic itself. Weapons. All sorts of stuff. And certainly it's all stuff that my Grey Warden employs. But part of what makes Dragon Age so great to me is that, no matter how great you try to be, the cost of your choices will be high. You pay a steep price for most victories and for much of your power, just so that you can die in the end and stop an archdemon.
I mean, heck, being a Grey Warden and messing with darkspawn blood in the first place seems like a bad idea, but when the world is demanding that sacrifice, would THE higher power (or even ANY worthy higher power?) condemn you for trying to help in the only way you know how?
Hope at least some of that made any sense. Let me know if you need me to elaborate on anything.
#91
Posté 28 février 2011 - 06:46
Buffy-Summers
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Blood magic is looked down on by the chantry because people abused it
Nothing is inherently bad, just people's use of it and how people perceive it
Nothing is inherently bad, just people's use of it and how people perceive it
#92
Posté 28 février 2011 - 02:54
Augustei
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Blood Magic isn't necessarily evil.. It just leaves people more open to new practices and doing evil things.. Its like Marijuana.. its not extremely bad.. but its a gateway drug to worse off drugs.. I
#93
Posté 28 février 2011 - 03:02
wcholcombe
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fromn the mini guide--basically the lore from the strat guide--"Inevitably even bloodmages who tap their own blood find a need for the power of others, or find a need to control minds or summon demons."
all of which I consider to be evil.
all of which I consider to be evil.
#94
Posté 28 février 2011 - 03:18
Ladydub
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Blood magic comes from using your blood or blood of others to cast spells.. and is taught by demons. While the character wielding blood magic isnt necessarily evil, he cant be good aligned either. Neutral or evil caster comes to mind when I think of blood magic.
#95
Posté 28 février 2011 - 04:47
LobselVith8
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The Minority wrote...
Grey Wardens aren't at all the heroes people make them out to be. They do whatever it takes to quell the Blight, they would probably perform a bloody coup with blood magic to stop the Blight.LobselVith8 wrote...
Duncan mentions that Grey Wardens have resorted to blood magic to defeat the darkspawn, so I don't think it's evil. People can misuse any weapon or ability; it's all an issue of intent.
But blood magic is only bad if you use it for the wrong reasons.
I suppose that depends on how you define hero. Grey Wardens can be very pragmatic, but they are the ones who keep the darkspawn at bay and give their lives to defeat them. They're the single greatest threat to all sentient life in Thedas, both on the surface and in the dwarven kingdoms. I think their use of blood magic to combat the darkspawn is a good indicator that blood magic isn't inherently bad. Haussier also addressed a good point that technically, the Joining is also blood magic. We also see Finn perform a spell to locate the Eluvian (in Witch Hunt) that is also blood magic.
Modifié par LobselVith8, 28 février 2011 - 04:49 .
#96
Posté 28 février 2011 - 04:52
Trintrin86
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Vearsin wrote...
Blood magic is not inherently bad, but this doesn't mean much. Heroine isn't inherently bad either, however that dosen't mean anything good can come from it.
I think this is actually an excellent point. To generalize out from heroine, opiates in general aren't "bad." They have legit medical uses when used in moderation, it's just way easy to cross that line into it no longer being moderation.
I mean, a Blood Mage has the ability to control minds, that's pretty damn powerful and tempting to use for selfish reasons. Say you have a crush on a guy/girl who just isn't that into you...would you "change their mind." I mean...you're a really cool person right? They just need a little nudge to realize it. It's not like you plan to hurt them or anything...and if you're both happy what does it matter right?
Imagine looking at someone and never being quite sure if the thoughts running through your head are your own. That's why Blood Magic is feared more than the ability to rain down fireballs. It's insidious when it is subtle, and bloody and horrying when it's not.
#97
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:00
LobselVith8
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Trintrin86 wrote...
Vearsin wrote...
Blood magic is not inherently bad, but this doesn't mean much. Heroine isn't inherently bad either, however that dosen't mean anything good can come from it.
I think this is actually an excellent point.
I don't think it's an accurate point. Blood magic gives us the Joining (blood magic specifically involving darkspawn and Archdemon blood) so it clearly does produce something beneficial and good, since stopping the Archdemon and putting an end to the Blight is vitally important for Thedas.
#98
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:17
DJ0000
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Jowan never actually used his blood magic for anything evil. He used it to escape and possibly to sacrifice Isolde thought that was your choice, not his, plus c'mon she was kinda asking for it.
The only evil thing that he decided to do was poison Eamon which as far as we know he didn't use blood magic
Between him and your Warden there is plenty of proof that blood magic can be used for good. If you learn it from demons however it usually will be pretty gruesome but it seems that Jowan just learnt it from books.
The only evil thing that he decided to do was poison Eamon which as far as we know he didn't use blood magic
Between him and your Warden there is plenty of proof that blood magic can be used for good. If you learn it from demons however it usually will be pretty gruesome but it seems that Jowan just learnt it from books.
#99
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:18
DJ0000
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LobselVith8 wrote...
Trintrin86 wrote...
Vearsin wrote...
Blood magic is not inherently bad, but this doesn't mean much. Heroine isn't inherently bad either, however that dosen't mean anything good can come from it.
I think this is actually an excellent point.
I don't think it's an accurate point. Blood magic gives us the Joining (blood magic specifically involving darkspawn and Archdemon blood) so it clearly does produce something beneficial and good, since stopping the Archdemon and putting an end to the Blight is vitally important for Thedas.
And I think that is an excellent point. I haven't actually thought of that.
#100
Posté 28 février 2011 - 05:26
Relshar
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I see blood magic the same way i view necromancy.
Necromancy is not really evil in of itself, but its how its applied. There are a few fictional stories of cults of necromancers that actualy work towards a greater good. But there are some where the necromancer starts down this dark path with good intentions (good example is Anakin Skywalker learning the dark side to save the woman he loves.) But along the way their views and mind get twisted and so turn to more extreem measure. If you were to ask any fictional necromancer or sith why they went down the path they chose. Some would probably say to save a *insert loved one name* from certain death, or they had to become what they are to fight back and free their family.
So Bloodmagic is not really evil such as a gun or sword doesn't kill. Its the person behind the tool or weapon.
Necromancy is not really evil in of itself, but its how its applied. There are a few fictional stories of cults of necromancers that actualy work towards a greater good. But there are some where the necromancer starts down this dark path with good intentions (good example is Anakin Skywalker learning the dark side to save the woman he loves.) But along the way their views and mind get twisted and so turn to more extreem measure. If you were to ask any fictional necromancer or sith why they went down the path they chose. Some would probably say to save a *insert loved one name* from certain death, or they had to become what they are to fight back and free their family.
So Bloodmagic is not really evil such as a gun or sword doesn't kill. Its the person behind the tool or weapon.
