500 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramus Quaritch]

At the very least, it is attractive to people who crave power and intend to do harm to others for their own gains or pleasure. At its core, it is magic that comes from demons, who are evil. It gains and uses its power based off of the life force of other people (or maybe the user itself). While it can be used for a good purpose (e.g. killing the Archdemon and ending the Blight), it is often used for nefarious purposes, as many "good" people would find it hard to gain power based off of the life force of their friends.

[Trintrin86]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Trintrin86 wrote...

Vearsin wrote...

Blood magic is not inherently bad, but this doesn't mean much. Heroine isn't inherently bad either, however that dosen't mean anything good can come from it.

I think this is actually an excellent point.

I don't think it's an accurate point. Blood magic gives us the Joining (blood magic specifically involving darkspawn and Archdemon blood) so it clearly does produce something beneficial and good, since stopping the Archdemon and putting an end to the Blight is vitally important for Thedas.

And morphine is a very effective painkiller when used properly. The relief of pain is a very good thing. But you risk dependancy when you use it, same as another other narcotic.

And the joining is a potentially deadly ritual that simply causes a delay in the tranformation into a darkspawn tainted ghoul by 20-30 years under the best of circumstances. And if you're the one Warden "lucky" enough to kill and Archdeamon, possibly your soul is destroyed as well. May be good for Thedas...but pretty crappy for the Warden. It kind of reinforces the notion that Blood Magic does Really Bad Things.

[LobselVith8]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

At the very least, it is attractive to people who crave power and intend to do harm to others for their own gains or pleasure. At its core, it is magic that comes from demons, who are evil.

There's no proof that its inception dates back to demons, especially when we have conflicting information that says Dumat taught the Tevinters about magic so that they would free him.

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

It gains and uses its power based off of the life force of other people (or maybe the user itself).

Blood instead of mana, which can be used for the Joining to create Grey Wardens who have one of the most important tasks in history or blood magic can be used to locate an Eluvian (Witch Hunt). It's clearly powerful enough that Duncan admits Grey Wardens have used it to give them an edge against the greatest threat to Thedas.

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

While it can be used for a good purpose (e.g. killing the Archdemon and ending the Blight), it is often used for nefarious purposes, as many "good" people would find it hard to gain power based off of the life force of their friends.

We have no statistical information on how "often" blood magic is used, and we see a good person like Finn use a relatively harmless blood magic spell to locate an ancient elven device.

[LobselVith8]

Trintrin86 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think it's an accurate point. Blood magic gives us the Joining (blood magic specifically involving darkspawn and Archdemon blood) so it clearly does produce something beneficial and good, since stopping the Archdemon and putting an end to the Blight is vitally important for Thedas.

And morphine is a very effective painkiller when used properly. The relief of pain is a very good thing. But you risk dependancy when you use it, same as another other narcotic.

And the joining is a potentially deadly ritual that simply causes a delay in the tranformation into a darkspawn tainted ghoul by 20-30 years under the best of circumstances. And if you're the one Warden "lucky" enough to kill and Archdeamon, possibly your soul is destroyed as well. May be good for Thedas...but pretty crappy for the Warden. It kind of reinforces the notion that Blood Magic does Really Bad Things.

Stopping the darkspawn who seek to destroy the world is by no measure a bad thing. The Grey Wardens are the only ones who stand between the potential Archdemons and the darkspawn armies from completely destroying all the sentient races of Thedas. I'd say it's a pretty good thing that such magic exists, because saving civilization from complete oblivion is a Really Good Thing.

[Veex]

I don't think the Joining is blood magic per say. It involves blood, certainly, but it isn't powered by it. The difference between blood magic and regular magics is that it uses blood as the source of the power and not lyrium or mana.

Subtle difference, albeit an important one I think.

[Eveangaline]

I guess if you don't learn it from a demon, and if you only use blood from yourself or willing people, there's no reason to be against it.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

Alanosborn1991 wrote...


^Killing templars in DAO without Persuasion check as Blood Mage after Circle tower Quest^

How to do you embed a video in a post?

OK! See they REMOVED THAT??? I mean, I always HATED how being a Blood Mage didn't matter to the storyline one bit... and seeing that... it DID but they took it out??? Srsly???? For shame!

[Trintrin86]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Trintrin86 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't think it's an accurate point. Blood magic gives us the Joining (blood magic specifically involving darkspawn and Archdemon blood) so it clearly does produce something beneficial and good, since stopping the Archdemon and putting an end to the Blight is vitally important for Thedas.

And morphine is a very effective painkiller when used properly. The relief of pain is a very good thing. But you risk dependancy when you use it, same as another other narcotic.

And the joining is a potentially deadly ritual that simply causes a delay in the tranformation into a darkspawn tainted ghoul by 20-30 years under the best of circumstances. And if you're the one Warden "lucky" enough to kill and Archdeamon, possibly your soul is destroyed as well. May be good for Thedas...but pretty crappy for the Warden. It kind of reinforces the notion that Blood Magic does Really Bad Things.

Stopping the darkspawn who seek to destroy the world is by no measure a bad thing. The Grey Wardens are the only ones who stand between the potential Archdemons and the darkspawn armies from completely destroying all the sentient races of Thedas. I'd say it's a pretty good thing that such magic exists, because saving civilization from complete oblivion is a Really Good Thing.

I agree...stopping the Darkspawn is a very good thing. But the very nature of the Grey Wardens is the attitude "the ends justify the means."

I think we can all agree that say, murdering a little old lady is a bad thing. If a Grey Warden found out that the only way to end the all the blights forever was to murder a little old lady they would do it. That doesn't make murder a "good" thing, it makes it necessary evil.

[LobselVith8]

Trintrin86 wrote...

I agree...stopping the Darkspawn is a very good thing. But the very nature of the Grey Wardens is the attitude "the ends justify the means."

I think we can all agree that say, murdering a little old lady is a bad thing. If a Grey Warden found out that the only way to end the all the blights forever was to murder a little old lady they would do it. That doesn't make murder a "good" thing, it makes it necessary evil.

If it stops people from getting eaten and women from getting violated, I'd say it's a very good thing. I doubt we're going to agree on this issue, though, so let's agree to disagree?

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

In a published Mage:The Awakening adventure you are hired to help find a demon that was released and capture it. Turns out though, it's a trap. The demon EATS mage souls, and once it's eaten 3 souls, then it has to be presented an item of value to one of the souls it's eaten, after which the souls of the other two will be utterly destroyed to reincarnate the other mage in a more powerful form.

So, one of your friends gets accidentally eaten by the demon. You can't STOP the demon, cause any mage that gets near it will be eaten before they have a chance to get off a spell. Pretty much all the choices you have are questionable,.. A sidebar in the adventure talks about this adventure being to show that sometimes there is no GOOD answer, no matter what the players decide to do, 2 mages must be utterly destroyed to empower a 3rd. It's already been set in motion,the best you can do is minimize the damage by finding a mage the world would be better without and arranging for the demon to find him/her, then resurrecting your friend because the mage that set this in motion is obviously evil too.

Modifié par AbsolutGrndZer0, 28 février 2011 - 06:07 .

[AlexXIV]

Veex wrote...

I don't think the Joining is blood magic per say. It involves blood, certainly, but it isn't powered by it. The difference between blood magic and regular magics is that it uses blood as the source of the power and not lyrium or mana.

Subtle difference, albeit an important one I think.

I don't know if the Grey Warden ritual as such is blood magic, but they researched and created it with the help of bloodmagic. That's how I understood it anyway.

[AlexXIV]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Alanosborn1991 wrote...


^Killing templars in DAO without Persuasion check as Blood Mage after Circle tower Quest^

How to do you embed a video in a post?

OK! See they REMOVED THAT??? I mean, I always HATED how being a Blood Mage didn't matter to the storyline one bit... and seeing that... it DID but they took it out??? Srsly???? For shame!

Hm I had this scene, not sure if I uploaded a mod though. Anyway I persuaded my way out of it.

[Indoctrination]

Every single time it was used in a cutscene in Origins, it always ended in tragedy. It's not a coincidence, guys. Blood magic is just malevolent at its core, in my opinion.

[AbsolutGrndZer0]

I think Blood Magic is like any other magic. It's not evil, what you do with it is evil. If you use it to harm others, it's evil. If you use it to rip out Isolde's blood and use it to power a journey into the Fade? Yeah, that's evil.

Granted, there aren't many GOOD uses of blood magic, so in the end it's mostly evil, but again, no magic is evil until you use it to do an evil thing.

[Kharn-ivor]

I see it as bad because you rely on the life force of a persone,yours or somebody elses, I dont recall anybody talking about what happens to the mage after giving up so much lifeforce. It must have some effect.
It also seems to me that at that point youve decided that your power is more important than life and that cant be a good set of mind.

Edit: I think some ppl are confused by blood magic and magic involving blood. The joining isnt blood magic I think its not using the bloods life force to power the spell it uses lyrium.

Modifié par Kharn-ivor, 28 février 2011 - 06:27 .

[RPGamer13]

I think how the chantry and the magi view blood magic is a parody on how if something goes unchecked, the parents, or templars in this case, are going to blame the children, or magi, who evade them and use the Blood Magic in rebellion.

[Shinimas]

Alanosborn1991 wrote...

If you had a good Warden use Blood Magic then there you go.

Also Jowain wasnt "Evil" he just wanted to escape with Lily.

Same thing for Loghain he just wants to defend Ferelden and not get himself killed. He wanted to use tactics but he didnt know that a Grey Warden is required to kill Archdemon.

To learn Blood Magic you had to condemn a child to be possessed by a demon, while deceiving to everyone around in the process. I don't know how good is a person that does it.

[TheCreeper]

Shinimas wrote...

Alanosborn1991 wrote...

If you had a good Warden use Blood Magic then there you go.

Also Jowain wasnt "Evil" he just wanted to escape with Lily.

Same thing for Loghain he just wants to defend Ferelden and not get himself killed. He wanted to use tactics but he didnt know that a Grey Warden is required to kill Archdemon.

To learn Blood Magic you had to condemn a child to be possessed by a demon, while deceiving to everyone around in the process. I don't know how good is a person that does it.

Or buy a book about it  in awakening or scare the demon off after accepting the deal.

[JamesX]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If it stops people from getting eaten and women from getting violated, I'd say it's a very good thing. I doubt we're going to agree on this issue, though, so let's agree to disagree?

So you are saying if a Gray Warden killed 10000 babies to save 1,000,000 babies, that makes it a good thing?  

You are so far off the morality discussion that I am not sure you realize it.

Plus you seem to think anything involving Blood is Blood Magic.  Blood Magic is VERY specific term.  Medical Transfusion would not be Blood Magic, even though it involved blood.  A Blood Oath is not Blood Magic even though it involved blood.  

Blood Magic is the drawing of energy from the Life Force of living beings (possibly sentient beings).  It is not just anything and all magical related things with Blood.

Like the Blood Phaylancry (horrible spelling, sorry).  It allow the mages to use magic (normal magic) to track the target via his Blood.  It is not the same as Blood Magic.  It in no way is powered by the life force/Blood of the victim or caster.  It is like a magical spell that targets someone if you have a lock of their hair.  It is not Hair Magic.

Not sure what the Warden's Ritual is, but I don't think it is blood magic.  It uses the Blood of the Dark Spawn because that is the easiest wa to transport it (and least disgusting way of consumption).  It will probably work fine if you ate a piece of the Archdemon - but blood is far easier to transport (and much more impressive from a story-teller perspective) than a Archdaemn Jerky dipped in Lyrium sauce.

Modifié par JamesX, 28 février 2011 - 06:38 .

[Needa85]

How can any magic be evil, really, there has to my knowledge ever been any evidence pointing to blood magic currupting its user as opposed to it being used by a corrupt person. The fact that it can and has been used in a manner involving unwilling sacrafice doesn't mean that it must.

At its most basic level blood magic takes the life force of the caster, their is no more selfless and self sacrificing form of magic in existance than that. Sacrifice can be willing, in which case it can be a beutiful and tragic thing.

The stigma attatched to blood magic exists for 2 reasons, the tavinter imperium is/was brutal and is/was run by blood mages. they have allways abused this power and have been histories most well known blood mages. Perfectly understandable that thier abuses have given the art a bad reputation.
Secondly given that it is very much outlawed the only people who would seek knowledge in the art are those that have little reguard for laws and rules. meaning they are probably the last people you want wielding that kind of power.

Blood magic is just a tool, just like any other kind of magic, even healing can be used for evil. imagine torturing a person to the brink of death and then healing him/her back to health to start all over again. pretty damned evil if you ask me.

Consider the sword. A piece of sharpened steel(or dragonbone or whatever). Its sole purpose is the destruction of flesh, to maim and kill living beings. Its function is to cause pain and death, their is no good in that. And yet they are often depicted in the hands of heros.

They are both just tools, there is no moral standing in any tool, just in how its used. only preconceptions tell us otherwise.


My 2 copper
(hmm, that came off a bit more 'preachy rant' than I had intended... meh)

Modifié par Needa85, 28 février 2011 - 06:41 .

[Fishy]

AustinKain wrote...

Blood Magic is severly looked down upon by the chantry and other mages that do not understand it.
Could it lead to a darker side? Sure but so could any mage that can cast any spell decide to use it for evil.

Its kinda like the light/dark sides of the force good/evil depends on your point of view.

Sith are just Emo .. So that make blood magic user emo?

Hawke : NnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooOOooOOOOoOo(Ground start to shake)

Modifié par Suprez30, 28 février 2011 - 06:42 .

[Clonedzero]

i wouldnt say its bad. its just really easy to use it in messed up evil ways.

[MasterSgtChurch]

If you believe in moral relativism the yes blood magic is not evil but if you have any sense of morality you know that blood magic is and always will be evil

[LobselVith8]

JamesX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If it stops people from getting eaten and women from getting violated, I'd say it's a very good thing. I doubt we're going to agree on this issue, though, so let's agree to disagree?

So you are saying if a Gray Warden killed 10000 babies to save 1,000,000 babies, that makes it a good thing?  

That wasn't what I said, and considering we disagreed about everything else in the past, I doubt this time will be any different. I said blood magic isn't evil when you consider Finn's relatively harmless ritual or the fact that it produces the only means of stopping the Archdemon and the only warriors capable of stopping the darkspawn without getting infected during combat. If one life could save every other life in Thedas from ever having to be violated or eaten, I'd say it's ultimately a good thing because that's the choice every Grey Warden makes when he or she joins the order.

JamesX wrote...

You are so far off the morality discussion that I am not sure you realize it.

Or you simply disagreed with me, and decided it was time for theatrics.

JamesX wrote...

Plus you seem to think anything involving Blood is Blood Magic.  Blood Magic is VERY specific term.  Medical Transfusion would not be Blood Magic, even though it involved blood.  A Blood Oath is not Blood Magic even though it involved blood.  

You seem to ignore that Finn never denies it's blood magic, and the Joining involves magic and two different types of blood.

JamesX wrote...

Blood Magic is the drawing of energy from the Life Force of living beings (possibly sentient beings).  It is not just anything and all magical related things with Blood.

That must be why Finn asks the Warden not to reveal his ritual to anyone outside the four of them.

JamesX wrote...

Like the Blood Phaylancry (horrible spelling, sorry).  It allow the mages to use magic (normal magic) to track the target via his Blood.  It is not the same as Blood Magic.  It in no way is powered by the life force/Blood of the victim or caster.  It is like a magical spell that targets someone if you have a lock of their hair.  It is not Hair Magic.

David Gaider said what the  templars use to locate mages (the phylacteries) is is a form of blood magic at PAX.

JamesX wrote...

Not sure what the Warden's Ritual is, but I don't think it is blood magic.  It uses the Blood of the Dark Spawn because that is the easiest wa to transport it (and least disgusting way of consumption).  It will probably work fine if you ate a piece of the Archdemon - but blood is far easier to transport (and much more impressive from a story-teller perspective) than a Archdaemn Jerky dipped in Lyrium sauce.

Darkspawn blood, Archdemon blood, and magic = the Joining.

[MasterSgtChurch]

Needa85 wrote...

How can any magic be evil, really, there has to my knowledge ever been any evidence pointing to blood magic currupting its user as opposed to it being used by a corrupt person. The fact that it can and has been used in a manner involving unwilling sacrafice doesn't mean that it must.

At its most basic level blood magic takes the life force of the caster, their is no more selfless and self sacrificing form of magic in existance than that. Sacrifice can be willing, in which case it can be a beutiful and tragic thing.

The stigma attatched to blood magic exists for 2 reasons, the tavinter imperium is/was brutal and is/was run by blood mages. they have allways abused this power and have been histories most well known blood mages. Perfectly understandable that thier abuses have given the art a bad reputation.
Secondly given that it is very much outlawed the only people who would seek knowledge in the art are those that have little reguard for laws and rules. meaning they are probably the last people you want wielding that kind of power.

Blood magic is just a tool, just like any other kind of magic, even healing can be used for evil. imagine torturing a person to the brink of death and then healing him/her back to health to start all over again. pretty damned evil if you ask me.

Consider the sword. A piece of sharpened steel(or dragonbone or whatever). Its sole purpose is the destruction of flesh, to maim and kill living beings. Its function is to cause pain and death, their is no good in that. And yet they are often depicted in the hands of heros.

They are both just tools, there is no moral standing in any tool, just in how its used. only preconceptions tell us otherwise.


My 2 copper
(hmm, that came off a bit more 'preachy rant' than I had intended... meh)

so....if there is no such thing as evil magic what made the tavinter imperium evil?