500 réponses à ce sujet

[Tamcia]

Just like some weapons are outlawed by organizations worldwide, so should some forms of magic. The level of how easily it can be abused is crossing some imaginary line.

[FaeQueenCory]

It's use results in "evil" things... The blights... stripping people of their free will aka super-slavery... uses people as sacrifices for casting stuff... comes from "evil" gods and demons... Whenever someone resorts to it... bad stuff always follows (and not that garbage of "if it wasn't looked on as evil none of the bad stuff would have happened"... because that's not true.)

So yeah... it's kinda "evil"... But not all people who use evil methods are evil themselves. Just remember that...

(My opinion: You can do what you need to without resorting to blood magery! Don't be lazy and/or stupid and/or arrogant! That's how we got these godforsaken blights!)

[Zigzaggy]

Cyclone Prime wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

Its taught by demons.

Demons are evil.

If my math Teacher was a rapist, does make me a rapist when i do math?

However much you dislike him ..your teacher isn't in league with the devil.He may be a bad person but teaching you Math is good.Demons by definition don't teach you good things.

[LobselVith8]

FaeQueenCory wrote...

It's use results in "evil" things... The blights...

There's no proof that the Chantry's claim that it was Tevinter is accurate. The dwarves certainly don't believe it, and they were the first to encounter the darkspawn, and know them better than anyone.

FaeQueenCory wrote...

stripping people of their free will aka super-slavery... uses people as sacrifices for casting stuff...

Yes, the Tevinter Imperium abused magic, including blood magic, but we also have Finn's ritual in Witch Hunt to find the Eluvian and the Joining Ritual. The Hero of Ferelden can also use blood magic, as other Grey Wardens have done.

FaeQueenCory wrote...

comes from "evil" gods and demons...

We don't know where it comes from, only where people claim it came from.

FaeQueenCory wrote...

(My opinion: You can do what you need to without resorting to blood magery! Don't be lazy and/or stupid and/or arrogant! That's how we got these godforsaken blights!)

Without blood magic we wouldn't have Grey Wardens, and there would be no end to the Blights as a result.

[SkyWard20]

Ziggeh wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

Demons are evil.

Are they?

They're not the kind of people I would want babysitting the kids or anything, but the reasons one would consider them evil are also functions of, for want of a better term, their biology. If the only food we could eat were sentient, would that make us evil?

the same can be said about darkspawn. some creatures are inherently evil to me -- in fantasy settings, at least. I've seen nothing to suggest that they are forced to possess living creatures to survive like we need food to survive. Spirits in the fade can get along just fine; maybe they become demons for having those intentions in the first place.

[JamesX]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That wasn't what I said[/quote]
Except that is what you said.  What you said is 

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]Trintrin86 wrote...
If a Grey Warden found out that the only way to end the all the blights forever was to murder a little old lady they would do it. That doesn't make murder a "good" thing, it makes it necessary evil.[/quote]
If it stops people from getting eaten and women from getting violated, I'd say it's a very good thing. I doubt we're going to agree on this issue, though, so let's agree to disagree?[/quote]If a warden did what is necessary to save more people than he kill.  E.g. 1 old lady to end a blight.  It turns what he does in to a good thing.

Instead of still being evil but was necessary.  Because that is what Morality is.  Morality does not change with result.  Evil act is evil and does not become good because it has a good result.

Your logic is then applicable if  There is no absolute choice, and you must kill 10000 babies so you can save 1,000,000 babies then it is a good thing.  It is an natural extension of your OWN logic.


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I said blood magic isn't evil [/quote] and if you search this entire thread, at no point did I ever say Blood Magic is evil.  So why are you saying we disagree on all things?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

when you consider Finn's relatively harmless ritual or the fact that it produces the only means of stopping the Archdemon and the only warriors capable of stopping the darkspawn without getting infected during combat. If one life could save every other life in Thedas from ever having to be violated or eaten, I'd say it's ultimately a good thing because that's the choice every Grey Warden makes when he or she joins the order.[/quote]This is exactly why I said you are off your rockers in regards to Morality.  If I murdered someone, and happen to save someone else, it does not make my murder any "gooder".  Yes good results came of it, but it is still murder.  


[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]JamesX wrote...

You are so far off the morality discussion that I am not sure you realize it. [/quote]

Or you simply disagreed with me, and decided it was time for theatrics.[/quote]I explained this in the above.  

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]JamesX wrote...

Plus you seem to think anything involving Blood is Blood Magic.  Blood Magic is VERY specific term.  Medical Transfusion would not be Blood Magic, even though it involved blood.  A Blood Oath is not Blood Magic even though it involved blood.  [/quote]

You seem to ignore that Finn never denies it's blood magic, and the Joining involves magic and two different types of blood.[/quote] Sorry I am not even sure who Finn is.  

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]JamesX wrote...

Blood Magic is the drawing of energy from the Life Force of living beings (possibly sentient beings).  It is not just anything and all magical related things with Blood. [/quote]

That must be why Finn asks the Warden not to reveal his ritual to anyone outside the four of them.[/quote]  You don't think it is because it opens the door to bleieve tht every single Gray Warden is a Dark Spawn waiting to happen?  That it will erode trust to the point of no return?  Do you want Vice Department Police Officers to all Prostitue Clients?  Or Drug Enforcement Agency be Drug Users?

It cannot possibly be that... it has to be because it is blood magic and hence we can't tell people because blood magic is evil?

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]JamesX wrote...

Like the Blood Phaylancry (horrible spelling, sorry).  It allow the mages to use magic (normal magic) to track the target via his Blood.  It is not the same as Blood Magic.  It in no way is powered by the life force/Blood of the victim or caster.  It is like a magical spell that targets someone if you have a lock of their hair.  It is not Hair Magic. [/quote]

David Gaider said what the  templars use to locate mages (the phylacteries) is is a form of blood magic at PAX.[/quote] Ah, then I stand corrected.

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

[quote]JamesX wrote...

Not sure what the Warden's Ritual is, but I don't think it is blood magic.  It uses the Blood of the Dark Spawn because that is the easiest wa to transport it (and least disgusting way of consumption).  It will probably work fine if you ate a piece of the Archdemon - but blood is far easier to transport (and much more impressive from a story-teller perspective) than a Archdaemn Jerky dipped in Lyrium sauce. [/quote]

Darkspawn blood, Archdemon blood, and magic = the Joining.[/quote]Except again you seems to believe anything magical involving blood is blood magic.  I am not sure how else I can explain it.  With that logic.

Dark Spawn Teeth, Archdemon Teeth, and Magic = The Joining = TEETH MAGIC!!!!  

Do not confuse reagents in a formula to be the actual process.  Nuclear Bombs are made from Radioactive Material.  It is not Radioactive Magic.  It is the Fission Process that makes it happen.  Blood Magic has to be the process of the magic is blood magic, not that blood is an reagent in the spell.

Modifié par JamesX, 28 février 2011 - 07:41 .

[Zigzaggy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

FaeQueenCory wrote...

It's use results in "evil" things... The blights...

There's no proof that the Chantry's claim that it was Tevinter is accurate. The dwarves certainly don't believe it, and they were the first to encounter the darkspawn, and know them better than anyone.

FaeQueenCory wrote...

stripping people of their free will aka super-slavery... uses people as sacrifices for casting stuff...

Yes, the Tevinter Imperium abused magic, including blood magic, but we also have Finn's ritual in Witch Hunt to find the Eluvian and the Joining Ritual. The Hero of Ferelden can also use blood magic, as other Grey Wardens have done.

FaeQueenCory wrote...

comes from "evil" gods and demons...

We don't know where it comes from, only where people claim it came from.

FaeQueenCory wrote...

(My opinion: You can do what you need to without resorting to blood magery! Don't be lazy and/or stupid and/or arrogant! That's how we got these godforsaken blights!)

Without blood magic we wouldn't have Grey Wardens, and there would be no end to the Blights as a result.

Hmm I find that to be quite untrue.

Considering most of the armies were not Grey wardens..and that most were wiped out at Ostagar.. .

Sure it can be manipulated for the better...but we know where all Grey wardens end up. So yes blood magic is inherently bad

[Zigzaggy]

Does anyone have any latex glue...his undies have just snapped

Modifié par Zigzaggy, 28 février 2011 - 07:41 .

[LobselVith8]

JamesX wrote...

Except that is what you said.  

No, James. What I said is clear for anyone to read on the prior page. The sacrifice of one life is what every Grey Warden makes in the Joining in order to battle the darkspawn. If one life being brought to an end would mean there would be no more Blights for all time, I think it's a good thing. I don't think it's evil to prevent the apocalypse. You're welcome to disagree, of course.

JamesX wrote...

If a warden did what is necessary to save more people than he kill.  E.g. 1 old lady to end a blight.  It turns what he does in to a good thing.

Instead of still being evil but was necessary.  Because that is what Morality is.  Morality does not change with result.  Evil act is evil and does not become good because it has a good result.

Evil is a relative term and depends entirely on perception, James. Saving the world and putting an end to the Blight is something I see as good.

JamesX wrote...

Your logic is then applicable if  There is no absolute choice, and you must kill 10000 babies so you can save 1,000,000 babies then it is a good thing.  It is an natural extension of your OWN logic.

No, James. Your analysis of what I said is, once again, incorrect.

JamesX wrote...

and if you search this entire thread, at no point did I ever say Blood Magic is evil.  So why are you saying we disagree on all things?

We're disagreed on all other issues in every other thread where we've spoken, so I don't think this discussion will be any different.

JamesX wrote...

This is exactly why I said you are off your rockers in regards to Morality.  If I murdered someone, and happen to save someone else, it does not make my murder any "gooder".  Yes good results came of it, but it is still murder.

If there are examples of blood magic that don't involve the murder or death of someone, like Finn's ritual, or where it's necessary to stop the greatest threat to all life on the planet, like the Joining, then I don't see blood magic as being inherently bad. 

JamesX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Or you simply disagreed with me, and decided it was time for theatrics.

I explained this in the above.  

And what I said stands. You're putting forth theatrics about thousands of babies and or calling blood magic a "blood oath" instead of looking at the issues. The Joining is created by blood magic - magic, and two different types of darkspawn blood. It's not an oath - it's blood magic.

JamesX wrote...

Except again you seems to believe anything magical involving blood is blood magic.  I am not sure how else I can explain it.  With that logic.

Dark Spawn Teeth, Archdemon Teeth, and Magic = The Joining = TEETH MAGIC!!!!   

No. If the phylactery is a form of blood magic when it involves a mage's blood and magic in order to locate him or her, then using magic and darkspawn blood with Archdemon blood is also a form of blood magic. So is Finn's ritual of using elven blood and magic to locate the Eluvian, when all Finn's ritual does is locate something.

[LobselVith8]

Zigzaggy wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Without blood magic we wouldn't have Grey Wardens, and there would be no end to the Blights as a result.

Hmm I find that to be quite untrue.

Considering most of the armies were not Grey wardens..and that most were wiped out at Ostagar.. .

Sure it can be manipulated for the better...but we know where all Grey wardens end up. So yes blood magic is inherently bad

Only the Grey Warden can destroy the soul of an Archdemon. Otherwise, it would be reborn in another darkspawn. Therefore, only the Wardens can bring the Blights to an end. And if blood magic is responsible for saving people from the darkspawn, I fail to see how it's inherently bad when it literally is the reason behind how Wardens are able to stop the end of the world.

[The Ribbajack]

Blood magic is best compared to snorting cocaine; people look down upon it but an addict can still be a nice person.

[atheelogos]

Zigzaggy wrote...

Cyclone Prime wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

Its taught by demons.

Demons are evil.

If my math Teacher was a rapist, does make me a rapist when i do math?

However much you dislike him ..your teacher isn't in league with the devil.He may be a bad person but teaching you Math is good.Demons by definition don't teach you good things.

Your missing something. Blood magic doesn't originally come from demons. There are just the most numerous group who know the practice nowadays.

[JrayM16]

It uses life energy. That gives blood magic potential for a lot of evil. It can be used morally by simply using one's own blood in small amounts though.

Still, I don't think blood magic can be considered "good" in any sense of the word, even though it is not necessarily evil.

[Zigzaggy]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Zigzaggy wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Without blood magic we wouldn't have Grey Wardens, and there would be no end to the Blights as a result.

Hmm I find that to be quite untrue.

Considering most of the armies were not Grey wardens..and that most were wiped out at Ostagar.. .

Sure it can be manipulated for the better...but we know where all Grey wardens end up. So yes blood magic is inherently bad

Only the Grey Warden can destroy the soul of an Archdemon. Otherwise, it would be reborn in another darkspawn. Therefore, only the Wardens can bring the Blights to an end. And if blood magic is responsible for saving people from the darkspawn, I fail to see how it's inherently bad when it literally is the reason behind how Wardens are able to stop the end of the world.

edited...uninterested and leaving

Modifié par Zigzaggy, 28 février 2011 - 08:18 .

[Rasputin]

JamesX wrote...

Blood Magic is actually not inherently evil, but its use can easily lead to abuse. It is like inflicting physical pain is not inherently evil, but most people that enjoy inflicting pain are often not very nice people.

I disagree... based on the fact that one of the Blood MAges key skills requires you to TAKE life force from your companions to power your spells.  Last time I checked, this was a bad thing.  I agree in general with the premise that talents/skills are not bad in their own right, it depends on how you use them, but in this case, you inherantly use them in an evil way based on the definition.  Its not QUITE the same as a good Jedi using lightning only on evil enemies (although we dont know enough about the metaphysical implications of using the Jedi Power lighting (at leats I dont) to say wether the lightning use automatically leads to the Dark Side because it forces you to draw on darkside powers/elements of the Force...

Wow.. ok I totally opened this up for a flame war here...

*takes cover*

[Cyclone Prime]

Zigzaggy wrote...

Cyclone Prime wrote...

megaz635 wrote...

Its taught by demons.

Demons are evil.

If my math Teacher was a rapist, does make me a rapist when i do math?

However much you dislike him ..your teacher isn't in league with the devil.He may be a bad person but teaching you Math is good.Demons by definition don't teach you good things.

Thats my point he's bad but teaches me something, what I do with it determines me as good or bad, but the knowledgde he teaches me is all the same

[TheCreeper]

Rasputin wrote...

JamesX wrote...

Blood Magic is actually not inherently evil, but its use can easily lead to abuse. It is like inflicting physical pain is not inherently evil, but most people that enjoy inflicting pain are often not very nice people.

I disagree... based on the fact that one of the Blood MAges key skills requires you to TAKE life force from your companions to power your spells.  Last time I checked, this was a bad thing.  I agree in general with the premise that talents/skills are not bad in their own right, it depends on how you use them, but in this case, you inherantly use them in an evil way based on the definition.  Its not QUITE the same as a good Jedi using lightning only on evil enemies (although we dont know enough about the metaphysical implications of using the Jedi Power lighting (at leats I dont) to say wether the lightning use automatically leads to the Dark Side because it forces you to draw on darkside powers/elements of the Force...

Wow.. ok I totally opened this up for a flame war here...

*takes cover*

Well to be fair that can be used on stuff like summoned bears, so even that spell isn't that evil. and even if used on people it can be done willing (although I got to wonder how that conversation would go)

[hobbit of the shire]

I'm just starting out my first mage character that I will eventually have become a blood mage, so I'm not 100% sure on the capabilities of a blood mage and what a blood mage does to get his powers/spells. However, if it doesn't require stuff like sacrificing and in general being evil, I don't see why just the use of blood shall deem a blood mage evil. If used with care and in a way it doesn't hurt people, then I don't see why not it can be a source of good. The Chantry, with its hypocrises, Tranquil-izing and apostate-hunting I find way more evil than an apostate blood mage minding its own business.

[Glorfindel709]

A) Bad and Good are generally subjective and based upon perceptions established by culture, upbringing, etc etc

Looking at it from a Consequentialist standpoint, if doing x leads to y, and x is a "bad" deed but y by comparison is a "good" outcome, then because the consequences of the action were good, the action is absolved or ignored. This applies from using Blood Magic to control someone who is about to kill someone into dropping their sword to sacrificing a little old lady in order to stop the Blight.

C) Jowan is a prime example of a Mage who (as far as we know) didnt learn Blood Magic from a demon but rather from piecing together clues in the various books on the subject in the Library. I imagine that if every blood mage in the game had learned from a demon we'd see a lot more abominations than we do. That being said, the original method of Blood Magic was taught to the Tevinter Imperiums' Magisters by Dumat, the Old God. It was then spread among the magic users of Thedas. We (The Warden) are able to learn Blood Magic from a Desire Demon. That does not mean that every Blood Mage that came before or after us necessarily had to make a deal with a demon.

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 01 mars 2011 - 02:35 .

[Insomniak]

MasterSgtChurch wrote...
so....if there is no such thing as evil magic what made the tavinter imperium evil? 

Well, evil people, who abused magic, made the Imperium "evil"


Analogous to the phrase "Guns don't kill people; people kill people."
Guns, in and of themselves, are not "evil" - they are tools to be treated with respect.
People can use them to protect others or murder others... same goes for any type of magic.
This could even be extrapolated to the other weapons used in DA (swords, daggers, crossbows, etc.)
Just because someone can use a sword to hurt or kill someone, doesn't automatically make the sword devil spawn... See where I'm going with this?

Modifié par javajedi217, 01 mars 2011 - 03:25 .

[Joy Divison]

I think its funny Wynne wants to arrest the Gray Warden who just rid the tower of Abominations that neither her own incompetent and narrow-minded ass nor Gregor and his empty bluster could hope to do...while there's a Blight!

Blood Mages >>>>> chantry zealots and indoctrinated tools

[TEWR]

blood magic is not evil, and it shouldn't be banned completely. That said, it is as much a threat as anything else, due to the inherent human nature of abusing the power it gives and running the risk of demons possessing the mage. So it's sort of a grey area on where it should fall.

[Taleroth]

JamesX wrote...
Except again you seems to believe anything magical involving blood is blood magic.

That's actually the entire definition of Blood Magic.  Magic that uses or affects blood.

Modifié par Taleroth, 01 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[Itkovian]

Blood Magic is not inherently evil, it certainly is the sort of magic that can be best exploited for evil means. Mind control, dark rituals that enslave souls and so forth. It is after all very telling that all 4 main quests in DAO involved some sort of nefarious Blood Magic element

So, while at a basic level Blood Magic might not be evil (though one could make a good case for mind-control magic being inherently evil), the fact remains that is is significantly used in evil deeds. Regardless of whatever philosophical or RL morality you bring into this, the fact is that game shows Blood Magic being mostly used for evil

Why that is can be debated. Perhaps the kind of people who would pursue Blood Magic tend to be evil in the first place, or perhaps it is because the special powers of a Blood Mage are geared towards evil (controlling minds, binding souls, etc.)

Either way, DAO showed clearly that the prohibition against Blood Magic is quite wise.

Itkovian

[IronVanguard]

It's not entirely bad on it's own, just powerful and prone to abuse.

Unless you're cutting open other people and using THEIR blood, in which case yeah, pretty evil.