500 réponses à ce sujet

[wambat74]

MasterSgtChurch wrote...
so....if there is no such thing as evil magic what made the tavinter imperium evil? 

 The sad fact is that the Imperium ran out of milk before they finished thier cookies, this made them cranky... which led to learning Elvish magic from an Old God.

[Sandy2009]

Ziggeh wrote...

Sandy2009 wrote...

Another anology I would like to draw is from Starwars universe. What is the differnce betwen Jedi and Sith lords. Both know force, but one group uses it for good of society, other for its own evil intentions.

At the risk of derailing into a star wars discussion, I feel this is quite a good illustration of the point I made earlier.

The Force has a definite dichotomy. It's not that the people who use the dark side start out bad and so misuse the same tool, there is literally a dark force and a "light" force (which is just refered to as The Force). It's a good old harmony versus discipline trope. Because of this in-universe distinction, we can say that the dark side is inherently evil.

Now, we know that there are similar absolutes in Thedas, especially when related to the fade. There are positive and negative emotions, for example. There is a definite divide between good and bad spirits, and so I think we can say that inherent evil does exist, and it's not merely an applied term as in our reality.

Now we can't say for sure that blood magic is demonic, as it's source is questionable, but it operates in many of the same ways. There are several parallels. I think the most we can say is that it possibly relates to something that is inherently evil, which leads me to believe it is possibly inherently evil itself.

Though in fairness that is 4 paragraphs to conclude that "your guess is as good as mine."

Yes there are good and bad spirits in fade. Wynne refers to them in her dialogues (although I would have loved to see some good spirit helping me out).

We know one source of blood magic - desire deamon. Here is more interesting question - when warden takes blood magic knowledge from desire deamon, he succumbs to his desire (instead of killing the deamon). Does that mean that desire deamon has now some control over warden ?

She fulfilled his desire and that's how she posseses her victims. When you make deal with a deamon, does the deamon possess you (like flemeth did and then she became an abomination).

Modifié par Sandy2009, 01 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[LobselVith8]

Sandy2009 wrote...

We know one source of blood magic - desire deamon. Here is more interesting question - when warden takes blood magic knowledge from desire deamon, he succumbs to his desire (instead of killing the deamon). Does that mean that desire deamon has now some control over warden ?

She fulfilled his desire and that's how she posseses her victims. When you make deal with a deamon, does the deamon possess you (like flemeth did and then she became an abomination).

The Warden can intimidate her in her own realm, and force her to provide him with the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for not killing her. She doesn't seem too pleased. However, I think her focus is entirely on Connor, as the Warden never offers his own soul in exchange for the knowledge.

[Sandy2009]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sandy2009 wrote...

We know one source of blood magic - desire deamon. Here is more interesting question - when warden takes blood magic knowledge from desire deamon, he succumbs to his desire (instead of killing the deamon). Does that mean that desire deamon has now some control over warden ?

She fulfilled his desire and that's how she posseses her victims. When you make deal with a deamon, does the deamon possess you (like flemeth did and then she became an abomination).

The Warden can intimidate her in her own realm, and force her to provide him with the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for not killing her. She doesn't seem too pleased. However, I think her focus is entirely on Connor, as the Warden never offers his own soul in exchange for the knowledge.

I had tried intimidate option and it did not work. She says plainly "no deal", meaning she will not give out knowledge.

[TwistedComplex]

Yes

When you use blood magic there is a chance you will become possessed and turn into a rampant abomination

Even Morrigan admits this

So even if you have no morality, getting turned into an insane abomination is never a good thing

[wambat74]

sreaction wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

So I notice that there is no really good Blood mage in Dragon Age, there is Jowan who means well but messes up everything he touches and of course PC and companion mages if you so chose but that is barely touched on in dialogue. So that raises the question, is Blood Magic an inherently bad kind of magic that only a few select people can use without abusing it, abusing others with it or consorting with demons? Or can it be a genuine force for good if used by people with self control?

Baby Jesus kills a kitten everytime blood magic is used.

Is that to power his own Blood magic spell for a counter? "I see your Domination and counter with water into wine!"

[Sandy2009]

TwistedComplex wrote...

Yes

When you use blood magic there is a chance you will become possessed and turn into a rampant abomination

Even Morrigan admits this

So even if you have no morality, getting turned into an insane abomination is never a good thing

This is my understanding also based on dialogues with Wynne and Morrigan. Powerful blood mages can be possesd by deamons. I would think the chances would depend on your mental resistance. I wish they would have implemented something like that .

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Blood-Magic is something that can be used for good and Evil, it just depends on how you use it for the protection and preservation of your powers.

[LobselVith8]

Sandy2009 wrote...

I had tried intimidate option and it did not work. She says plainly "no deal", meaning she will not give out knowledge.

You need to have all four coercion ranks to intimidate her to leave Connor alone and give you the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for sparing her life. That's how I got an alternate Epilogue slide with Connor.

[Sandy2009]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Sandy2009 wrote...

I had tried intimidate option and it did not work. She says plainly "no deal", meaning she will not give out knowledge.

You need to have all four coercion ranks to intimidate her to leave Connor alone and give you the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for sparing her life. That's how I got an alternate Epilogue slide with Connor.

ok. You need 16 points in cunning to get to level 4 coercion. I did not put in any points in cunning as a mage, only in willpower and magic (some in constitution). Is there any other significant situation you found coercion successful?

[elfdwarf]

didn't lore of blood magic change physical type of magic
blood mage having their power come from dream and reality

[Lotion Soronarr]

Blood magic is a wepon no living man should ever posses.

It's most basic usage is drawing power from blood.
While a mage can use his own blood to power spells, the more powerfull and complicated the spell, the more blood it requires - which is partially why so many blood mages take that blood from others, killing them in the process.
The power to cast spells that no single mage can cast without lyrium is alone enough for people to fear and want to control it.

But the real kicker is mind control. The most dangerous and intoxicating power a mage can wield. Now that is a real danger. Not only would no ruler (or any peasant) ever feel comfortable with a blood mage, but that power is more tempting than all others.
Coupled with the simple logical fact that no man with mind control can be trusted, it's not hard to see why blood mages are killed.

Not "evil" per say...but definately very corrupting and something no man should posses.

[themageguy]

for those that have read the comics, its interesting to see that the old blood mage uses blood magic to heal and to cast a barrier to protect against harm. He also mentions it can be used to grow crops too.
To me blood magic seems to be 'old magic' and tied to the physical (which was in the blood mage info). I think that its use has been perverted over the years by demonology. It involves manipulating life energy....which could be used benevolently ie help heal or encourage fertility for a couple. I suppose coz of its malevolent abilities ie mind control and blood boiling thats why its feared and seen as evil.
I think its not inheritantly evil it just has the potential to be abused by the power hungry.

[Neleothesze]

A lot of parallels to other fantasy or sci-fi universes can be made (and have been) so I'm just going to add a couple about about the HP and TES universes. In the first one I got an answer to my question as to why there were only 3 curses which were considered "Unforgivable". The point someone made back then was that, unlike other spells, curses, or jinxes which rely on the caster's willpower for strength and may or may not have lasting effects, the "Unforgivables" are done with an intent to harm.
The Imperius Curse takes control over the free will of another person, the Cruciatus curse can only be cast when the caster feels sufficient desire to inflict pain on someone else and the Killing Curse simply kills. There is no middle ground there.

In the Dragon Age universe, Blood Magic is seen by the majority of the population and the Chantry as something similar.
You can 1) control the free will of another person (you either take away his free will or you don't, no middle ground); 2) suck the lifeforce of another person to heal yourself; 3) use your very blood - which btw shows serious determination and desire - to inflict pain. It doesn't mean that all there is to it, it's what most people who come/have come into contact with it experience.

Other schools offer the possibility of using spells to varying degrees so as to turn them into something useful:
A virulent walking bomb spell can be used on rats to get rid of a rat infestation, an ice storm to put out a building on fire (etc)

Of course a mage specializing in destructive spells (primal and elemental) can be as horrifying as a blood mage. In The Elder Scrolls universe Necromancy was banned for being an 'unseemly' Magic Art. You know, reanimating grandma for your undead army, playing with corpses and all that.

However, there is this one story where the detective finds a dungeon with a lot of bodies, all mutilated beyond recognition, decayed, smelling, a horrifying image. First he assumes he's stumbled into a Necromancer's lair only to later find a diary detailing all the gruesome practices:
- freezing a person then slowly setting them on fire to see how the skin peels off...
- pouring acid over a number of days then freezing the area..
- casting waves of lightning bolts with a low intensity to see how long it takes before the person dies...
- internal incineration etc.
This person had simply taken the art of elemental magic to a demented extreme in the interest of scientific research.

No living creature has proven inherently bad (as in evil) and an object or talent or skill can't beget any attributes it's owner doesn't have. However, man has proven inherently flawed so he may abuse whatever power he has for greed, ambition, vengeance or because his mind is no longer in the right place.

Think of what a demented Spirit Healer could do, cutting flesh and healing, shattering bone and healing, tearing skin and healing, killing from blood loss and reviving, ... he could prove a more effective torturer than any Blood Mage.

Modifié par Indolence, 01 mars 2011 - 12:04 .

[LobselVith8]

Sandy2009 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You need to have all four coercion ranks to intimidate her to leave Connor alone and give you the knowledge of blood magic in exchange for sparing her life. That's how I got an alternate Epilogue slide with Connor.

ok. You need 16 points in cunning to get to level 4 coercion. I did not put in any points in cunning as a mage, only in willpower and magic (some in constitution). Is there any other significant situation you found coercion successful?

You need the four ranks of coercion to be successful against the Desire Demon because it's a difficult intimidation check. I personally found blood magic useful. I don't think it's evil or inherently bad when we see there's a variety of spells involving blood magic that aren't particularly harmful (like Finn's spell, for instance), and there have been beneficial uses for it that have benefited all sentient races on Thedas. Blood magic exists, it's not going to go away.

The idea that some think it's inherently bad seems to ignore the myraid of uses it provides and only focus on how it's abused by some, while even the powerful spells of using blood instead of mana and mind control can be used by the Hero of Ferelden to help facilitate the success against the darkspawn and the Blight. It's the same type of powerful magic that Duncan addresses in the Magi Origin has having been necessary by some Grey Warden mages for the battle against the darkspawn.

[Emzamination]

Yes blood magic was taught to men by the same demons that seek to enslave and turn them into abominations.

I'm a Isolationist but I agree with the chantry on this that someone caught using magic that can summon demons and enslave a beings mind should be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law.

Killing a blood mage is not enough imo I think their souls should be bound to an object for a few millenia to think about their consorting with demonic magic.

I never found a need to consort with that sort of filth so neither should any other mage imo.My hawke most definitely won't be touching that with a 50ft pole.

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

Yes blood magic was taught to men by the same demons that seek to enslave and turn them into abominations.

I'm a Isolationist but I agree with the chantry on this that someone caught using magic that can summon demons and enslave a beings mind should be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law.

Killing a blood mage is not enough imo I think their souls should be bound to an object for a few millenia to think about their consorting with demonic magic.

I never found a need to consort with that sort of filth so neither should any other mage imo.My hawke most definitely won't be touching that with a 50ft pole.

Your comment about demons is interesting, because the information about DA2 suggests otherwise:

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Yes blood magic was taught to men by the same demons that seek to enslave and turn them into abominations.

I'm a Isolationist but I agree with the chantry on this that someone caught using magic that can summon demons and enslave a beings mind should be dealt with to the fullest extent of the law.

Killing a blood mage is not enough imo I think their souls should be bound to an object for a few millenia to think about their consorting with demonic magic.

I never found a need to consort with that sort of filth so neither should any other mage imo.My hawke most definitely won't be touching that with a 50ft pole.

Your comment about demons is interesting, because the information about DA2 suggests otherwise:

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."

Suggest otherwise about what? Demons taught the magisters blood magic and thats fact and if you played the warden keep Dlc this fact is reaffirmed.Demons are evil and anything coming from them is evil as well.

Besides you have to hurt others to power blood magic
How can that NOT be evil?

Modifié par Emzamination, 01 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[TEWR]

Warden's Keep did nothing to reaffirm Demons teaching Blood Magic. The only demon we know of that CAN teach Blood Magic is the Desire Demon, namely because she feeds off of a lust for power. We don't even know if the Magisters learned Blood Magic from Dumat, demons, or Arlathan elves. Hell they could've just picked up a book called Blood Magic and You: The Beginner's Guide.

secondly, you don't NEED to harm someone for blood magic to work. Sure that's something Blood Magic can do, but you don't need to.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 mars 2011 - 01:27 .

[Emzamination]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Warden's Keep did nothing to reaffirm Demons teaching Blood Magic. The only demon we know of that CAN teach Blood Magic is the Desire Demon, namely because she feeds off of a lust for power. We don't even know if the Magisters learned Blood Magic from Dumat, demons, or Arlathan elves. Hell they could've just picked up a book called Blood Magic and You: The Beginner's Guide.

secondly, you don't NEED to harm someone for blood magic to work. Sure that's something Blood Magic can do, but you don't need to.

You should go recheck Avernus dialogue on blood magic then.

When your body runs low on blood in the middle of combat your going to need something to power those spells.

[LobselVith8]

Emzamination wrote...

Suggest otherwise about what?

That some see it as the only means of magic that allows them freedom from demons.

Emzamination wrote...

Demons taught the magisters blood magic

There's also the claim that Dumat taught them. Speculation, heresay, and religious belief aren't fact, though.

Emzamination wrote...

and thats fact and if you played the warden keep Dlc this fact is reaffirmed.

No, actually, it's not. There's nothing in Warden's Keep that even remotely suggests that blood magic has its inception from demons.

Emzamination wrote...

Demons are evil and anything coming from them is evil as well.

Evil is a matter of perspective.

Emzamination wrote...

Besides you have to hurt others to power blood magic
How can that NOT be evil?

I'd say the Joining has provided us with beneficial results, like keeping the world from going straight to hezmana. That doesn't seem evil to me.

[TheCreeper]

Emzamination wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Warden's Keep did nothing to reaffirm Demons teaching Blood Magic. The only demon we know of that CAN teach Blood Magic is the Desire Demon, namely because she feeds off of a lust for power. We don't even know if the Magisters learned Blood Magic from Dumat, demons, or Arlathan elves. Hell they could've just picked up a book called Blood Magic and You: The Beginner's Guide.

secondly, you don't NEED to harm someone for blood magic to work. Sure that's something Blood Magic can do, but you don't need to.

You should go recheck Avernus dialogue on blood magic then.

When your body runs low on blood in the middle of combat your going to need something to power those spells.

Animals work well for that that (Summoned bears for one)

[TEWR]

I have seen Avernus mention nothing regarding Demons were the primary source of Blood Magic. He says that the Darkspawn taint is alien to them, because they've never encountered anything like it. Magic on the other hand is different. They encounter Mages every time one goes into the Fade, through dreaming or otherwise.

And if my body runs low on blood, I would think using a health poultice would be better than me needlessly using blood magic.

[Emzamination]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Suggest otherwise about what?

That some see it as the only means of magic that allows them freedom from demons.

Emzamination wrote...

Demons taught the magisters blood magic

There's also the claim that Dumat taught them. Speculation, heresay, and religious belief aren't fact, though.

Emzamination wrote...

and thats fact and if you played the warden keep Dlc this fact is reaffirmed.

No, actually, it's not. There's nothing in Warden's Keep that even remotely suggests that blood magic has its inception from demons.

Emzamination wrote...

Demons are evil and anything coming from them is evil as well.

Evil is a matter of perspective.

Emzamination wrote...

Besides you have to hurt others to power blood magic
How can that NOT be evil?

I'd say the Joining has provided us with beneficial results, like keeping the world from going straight to hezmana. That doesn't seem evil to me.

Replay wardens keep and have a thorough conversation with avernus regarding blood magic.I'll not explain it here seeing as its a spoiler to the main plot but yes it reaffirms blood magic comes from demons.

Just because the joining requires you invibing ds taint in their blood doesn't make it blood magic and Wardens keep Affirms that as well now that you mention it.

TheCreeper wrote...

Animals work well for that that (Summoned bears for one)

Yeah I was trying to avoid suggesting the Idea of hurting the poor animals 

[TEWR]

Blood magic is using any magical means to alter a person's life, benevolent or not. There are grey areas, as Finn states with the Lights of Arlathan, and the Templars using phylacteries to hunt down mages.

Blood Magic is about more than just "let me boil your blood from the inside and make you explode everywhere into a big pool of goopy flesh!"